HELP: Audi TT Cup understeer

[RasmusP]

Hi,
as you all can see we had some good discussions going on in the last days and the consensus was something like "Let's have a place to talk about the driving".

So here I am, creating the first of that threads:
I need some advice on fighting the understeer in the Audi TT cup
When I watch the replays I see that "the fast guys" are having a better line and when I compare it to me in detail I see they are faster while cornering, turning in point + braking is almost the same and I see no clear difference.
It's like some "magic" that pushes them tighter around.
But then sometimes I get that too... Just don't know how to do it consistently

My thoughts: when you brake you will gain grip on the front wheels. So touching the brakes slightly while cornering will give you a tighter turning radius but will also slow you down. If you brake too hard you will transfer too much weight to the front and you will get understeer.
If you accelerate you will get understeer because the front wheels lose weight and therefore grip.
If you accelerate too much you will get HEAVY understeer, because FWD...

So somewhere in between there seems to be a "trick" that lets you do the "tighter turning radius" you get when touching the brakes, but without braking and without slowing down.

Can you help out? Do I have to turn the wheel more aggressively or trail brake deeper into the corner? I don't know and before I'm spending a few hours on doing a splitscreen slow motion video, studying the details etc. (maybe I will do that either way) I just thought about asking you all and start a nice discussion about the handling of our beloved (and sometimes hated) friendly event car

 

[Mr Deap]

It's kind of important to know, especially with fixed setup.

Personally I would leave the tire app on, see where you can push & where you can't, depending of the tyre temperature. Getting exit the proper exit speed is crucial to get better lap time.

There's also that push 2 pass button that give you speed boost.

 

[Kek700]

Do you have TC turned off!

 

[RasmusP]

Do you have TC turned off!

It's on. I always use the cars like they are in real life. @BhZ said in another thread that @kunos always works on the cars like they really are. So no ABS for GTE cars and so on.
Without TC this Audi is really understeery I think...

 

[RasmusP]

Sooo, thanks for all the replies!
I did a little "To Do"-List for my next training session in the Audi TT cup.
If you want, just tell me what is wrong or what I should add to the list. When no more input comes in a while I will put that list, with the splitscreen video, in the first post so everyone can see how to get better fast and easy on first look

To Do List:

• Brake later but deeper into the corner. Modulate to gain grip while turn in!
• Brake hard at first, only softly while entering the corner!
• With ABS: don't stamp on the brakes. Find the point where it only slightly triggers!
• If understeering while trail-braking -> brake bias to the rear!
• If understeering mid corner -> less throttle! Modulate it!
• Check the tire-app before the corner to know what to expect!
• Use the full track. With abs you can even try to brake on the outside curbs!
• Beware: Curbs have less grip = maybe longer braking distance!
• Be very smooth when releasing the brakes while turning in!
• Be as smooth as you can but also be aggressive when it's needed (@BhZ an example for when it's needed? )
• Get the car straight as soon as possible to apply full power
  (@Kek700 maybe timestamp from the video? )
• Jacky Stewart: "Don't put the throttle all the way down unless you can leave it there!"
• Take the circuit's map and draw your racing line backwarts to find issues in it!

Waiting for your replies

List of Edits after that post:
Edit1: @BhZ 's first post [LINK]
Edit2: @Kek700 's second post [LINK]
Edit3: @HypoToad 's first post [LINK]
Edit4: @Mr Deap 's first post [LINK]

 

[BhZ]

Sooo, thanks for all the replies!
I did a little "To Do"-List for my next training session in the Audi TT cup.
If you want, just tell me what is wrong or what I should add to the list. When no more input comes in a while I will put that list, with the splitscreen video, in the first post so everyone can see how to get better fast and easy on first look

To Do List:

• brake later, harder, longer. Modulate to gain grip while turn in!
• if understeering while trail-braking -> brake bias to the rear!
• if understeering mid corner -> less throttle! Modulate it!
• check the tire-app before the corner to know what to expect!
• use the full track. With abs you can even try to brake on the outside curbs
• don't be TOO smooth. Only be very smooth when releasing the brakes while turning in

Waiting for your replies

I'd change a little the first point. Brake hard at first, modulate or release (depending on the turn) when approaching a turn. Also, the straighter the tyres when braking, the better.
Point 6: smooth is good, smooth is faster. Just not with the brakes.
I'd also add one thing. When using ABS, full brake is not the most efficient. The perfect pressure is when the ABS triggers a bit but you are not full brake.
Point 5: sometimes braking on the curbs means longer braking distance (and instability) so try both and see which one seems the best option.

 

[Kek700]

. Getting the power on as soon as possible

 

[Kek700]

Getting the car straight as soon as possible to apply full power

 

[RasmusP]

@Kek700 These are good points but do you actually see that in the video as a mistake of the "slow guy"? I am just asking because for me it looks like the slow guy applies the throttle too early/too much and therefore gets understeer and a bad racing line.
Adding "apply throttle as soon as possible" is true, but may be misleading in this special case.
Not criticizing you, just asking where you see that in the video

 

[Kek700]

 

[HypoToad]

Not that I know anything, but Jackie Stewart, not a bad real life racer said "Don't put the throttle all the way down unless you can leave it there", so unless your coming out of a corner onto a straight you need to control the throttle.

 

[Mr Deap]

Look at the map of the circuit & draw a racing line in the reverse direction. Watch your drawing closely. Maybe you may find some issue.

 

[Kek700]

Just for the record, the slow guy is 2km per hour faster through that bend.
Confusing isn't it.

 

[RasmusP]

Just for the record, the slow guy is 2km per hour faster through that bend.
Confusing isn't it.

Haha yeah after doing that splitscreen recording I was sure that this was the PERFECT example for the understeer but when I was doing the little texts I thought "damn, I am not sure the slow guy isn't faster in the end"

 

[Neilski]

Fast guys do make mistakes
It's very hard to judge, especially since the delta app doesn't work on replays (at least for me).

 

[RasmusP]

Fast guys do make mistakes
It's very hard to judge, especially since the delta app doesn't work on replays (at least for me).

Yep, and if you watch another driver in the replay you don't see the laptimes either...
But even if the fast guys wasn't faster through these corners: It's the winner of the race and was def. faster throughout the whole track

 

[Neilski]

Yup, the only way I've found so far to check another driver's laptime is to watch the lap-timer as they cross the line, just before it resets. It's so very very hard to believe it's really that lame, but I can't find a better way yet.

 

[Brandon Wright]

@Kek700 These are good points but do you actually see that in the video as a mistake of the "slow guy"? I am just asking because for me it looks like the slow guy applies the throttle too early/too much and therefore gets understeer and a bad racing line.
Adding "apply throttle as soon as possible" is true, but may be misleading in this special case.
Not criticizing you, just asking where you see that in the video

It's about knowing when to get back on the throttle. As you can see in this pic, the slow guy is on the throttle sooner which causes his car to push towards the center of the track and compromises his setup for the right-hander. He got back on full throttle too soon and induced understeer.

As a result he had to do a big lift for the right-hander because he was not to the left of the track, which is the ideal position to be in for the turn-in. The fast guy came out of the left-hander correctly and was able to enter the right-hander from the far left side of the track and that allowed him to get on the throttle and straighten up the wheel sooner which will mean higher speed at the end of the following straight.

So, we have two guys that went full throttle. The slow guy got on to full throttle too soon and at the wrong place. The fast guy went full throttle at the right time and at the right place.

We also have a sacrificial turn at play here. Getting a good exit speed out of the first turn, the left-hander, is of low value because you're immediately setting up for another turn, and that second turn is followed by a straight. The second turn is the one you want to prioritize a good exit from because it will be rewarded at the end of the following straight with higher top speed. Sacrifice exit speed on the left-hander so you can ensure you get a good entry and exit for the right-hander, a good exit on the first turn will only gain you a tenth or two but a good exit on the second turn can gain you several tenths.

 

[Kek700]

I have spent many boring hours last week running a slow motion replay of a fast guy and a reasonable mid field runner over a whole Lap. And I cannot find anything to give me a hint on the 3 sec a lap difference apart from, he crosses the line 3 sec sooner.

I have timed speed across start/ finish line , minimum corner speed, speed at the end of the straight at every corner, time spend on full throttle, time spent on brakes, I ignored all corner throttle and brake as they are used to balance mid corner speed.

I found virtually no difference that even remotely accounts for 3 seconds.

All I can say is the fast guy was a lot lot more consistent at every repeated corner lap after lap.
Very impressive.

I even broke the above down for a series of difficult bends and could not find any difference in speed just 1 second quicker

I did this to find a reason "why" the 3 seconds difference , with the view of trying to address the reason,

I am now totally baffled, I live in hope someone will show me a reason why I wasted so many hours.

If Only I could ask to a race engineer.

I do apologize for boring you all with this especially as I have no conclusion

 

[Kek700]

Posted before I read Brandon's statement, I will give it some thought.

 

[Brandon Wright]

Posted before I read Brandon's statement, I will give it some thought.

Watch the video again and pay attention not to their speed at the entry/apex/exit of the corner, pay attention to their speed at the end of a straight. Doesn't have to be a super long straight, but long enough that you're full throttle for a 8-10 seconds, preferably preceded by a fairly slow turn. If they have higher top speed at the end of the straight you know they're getting a better exit and that's where the time is gained.

Judging from the slow-mo video I made the screencaps from, if slow guy is having a compromised exit like that on most of the corners of the track I bet that would account for at least 1-2 seconds of lost time over the course of the lap. Everything I can see in that video would definitely explain a lot of the time difference. He probably lost at least 2-3 tenths through that series of two turns (but that loss won't be apparent until the end of the following straight), do that 10+ times a laps and there's your 1-2 seconds.

Exit speed > entry speed (in most cases). Slow in, fast out. Focus on getting the best exit possible and you'll find time.