• "Auto racing began 5 minutes after the second car was built." - Henry Ford
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Dear Guest. Follow RaceDepartment on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Twitch, Steam and YouTube.

Featured Have Your Say - Damage in Sim Racing

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Paul Jeffrey, Oct 28, 2017.

  1. Paul Jeffrey

    Paul Jeffrey
    RaceDepartment Editor-in-Chief Staff Premium

    Messages:
    7,112
    Ratings:
    +12,021
    Have Your Say.jpg
    Welcome to the weekend people! It's Saturday morning so that means only one thing... time for another 'Have Your Say' feature.

    Thanks to the success of our reader request last week I've made the call to do the same again today, bringing up a feature requested by our community member @VernWozza about the state of damage in sim racing games.

    @VernWozza wrote to me last week asking to know the community opinion of damage in sim racing and I personally think it a very interesting point. You can read the message below:

    "Well it got me thinking about another topic of discussion. Damage. It stands to reason that those who don't like flashbacks would also want a better damage model than what is found in modern day racing sims. However whenever I bring this up I am always shot down in flames about "its a racing simulator, not a crash simulator". Well actually I put it to those people, what we actually have is a "driving quickly simulator" for me the essence of racing is getting to the finish line 1st, as quickly as you can, without damaging your equipment.

    At the moment it is somehow accepted that in race sims cars can hit the wall at 150mph and continue the race...I mean, don't talk to me about realism when that sort of thing is accepted as realistic. I'm not saying that sims should have Beam NG levels of realism (although one day they inevitably will) but just enough to punish the driver if they bin it in a big way. F1 2017 has done a better job in recent times of trying to implement some kind of advanced damage model, and I applaud that"

    So the question for this week is:

    Damage in sim racing, would you like to see harsher implementation? What would your ideal damage model behave like?

    For me personally I would love to see race ending damage more in line with the real world. I pray for the day when gravel traps are deep enough to beach the car and end your race. Bang wheels into a corner - broken suspension! Big shunt in practice? No time or parts to repair the car for qualifying. All this sounds awesome to me, however does our wider community want this level of detail?

    Let us know in the comments section below!
     
    • Agree Agree x 18
    • Like Like x 6
  2. Paul Jeffrey

    Paul Jeffrey
    RaceDepartment Editor-in-Chief Staff Premium

    Messages:
    7,112
    Ratings:
    +12,021
    PS - Sorry for the slightly irrelevant picture, I struggled to lay my hands on a decent sim racing damage picture.. which is kinda relevant to the topic at hand actually... :)
     
    • Haha Haha x 7
  3. VernWozza

    VernWozza
    Premium

    Messages:
    219
    Ratings:
    +81
    Well no sh*t you struggled to find a damage pic in a sim hahahaha.

    Paul, what you have said about a perfect damage model is exactly the level of detail I want from a sim too.
     
    • Agree Agree x 11
    • Haha Haha x 2
  4. Omer Said

    Omer Said
    Weresloth Staff

    Messages:
    12,788
    Ratings:
    +3,708
    More than a serious damage model, a proper collision physics with the rival cars is what I always dream about. There is not a single sim racing game nailing this up imo. Collisions should also give realistic damage to the cars, no visual representation needed much, just break the car down when you smash somewhere.
     
    • Agree Agree x 12
  5. Charmin

    Charmin

    Messages:
    182
    Ratings:
    +60

    When i saw this video the first time, i thought: How great would it be to have a sim racing game with that physics. Maybe one day......
     
    • Agree Agree x 17
    • Like Like x 5
    • Love Love x 2
    • Haha Haha x 1
  6. Benutzername

    Benutzername
    I breath a lot. I guess i just really like air. Premium

    Messages:
    7,697
    Ratings:
    +2,524
    All this discussions have the same answer:

    Make it as realistic as possible. That'd be awesome.

    Make it realistic as possible basixally includes everything we want:
    Full fields
    Diverse cars
    Realistic car behaviour
    Realistic damage
    Perfect sound
    Incredible visuals
    Dynamic weather
    Formation lap
    Pit Stops
    Realistic AI
    Laserscanned tracks
    etc
    etc

    Just a perfect game


    Only be careful to not make the prices realistic aswell. Dont want to pay thousands of money to get to drive a single car and pay a few hubdred to do some track days. And more to get a license. And pay for other stuff ;)
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Like Like x 1
  7. throughalens83

    throughalens83

    Messages:
    8
    Ratings:
    +3
    Well I simply think that damage should be (but actually it isn't) a part of a modern race sim.
    Every time I hit the wall and I continue racing it's just a sort of wake up from "dreaming" being a real racer.
    I'm a perfectionist, so I believe that I will be satisfied only when the damage model will be at the BeamNG level, and we are sooo far from that!
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  8. Patrick van der Meulen

    Patrick van der Meulen
    Premium

    Messages:
    222
    Ratings:
    +292
    Good topic! A case with to many sides. Often it is said that manufactures won’t allow true to life damage models. The other thing which often is said, that the performance of a game would suffer to much because systems are already on a heavy load calculating all physics and AI.

    That said, I would sincerely like to see damage models true to life. But on the other hand, I don’t care that much if it’s visible or not. But in consequences sims should be on par with the real thing. That’s what I really like with rFactor 2. For me it is currently the closest in that regard.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. VernWozza

    VernWozza
    Premium

    Messages:
    219
    Ratings:
    +81
    yeah I agree. Collisions are really important too. I would agree that the visual representation doesn't need to be insane just enough to visibly see what part of the car is damaged.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  10. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo

    Messages:
    1,413
    Ratings:
    +456
    A good damage model is just one more thing in the list of stuff sims should be doing by 2017
    With that you'd need a proper animated repair system.
    But wont happen. Sims will continue to lack immersion forever I guess.
     
  11. Kevin Bradley

    Kevin Bradley
    Premium

    Messages:
    87
    Ratings:
    +69
    I personally think lack of realistic damage is one area where all of the modern sims lack. I appreciate that it is a matter of personal taste though. An ultra sensitive damage model may put off some of the more 'casual' players, making the genre even more niche in the process.

    I would like to see it implemented as an adjustable slider, or maybe coded in to the harder difficulty modes in single player for the titles that work that way. In multiplayer it could be implemented like a server option so that there is the opportunity for a super serious league organiser to run a season as hardcore as possible whilst enabling the creator of a more relaxed race to 'tone it back' a bit.

    I'd love to have the option to do all this at least. For me, a properly worked damage model rewards careful driving and would just add another real world element to the whole experience.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
    • Like Like x 1
  12. gamer19

    gamer19

    Messages:
    1,127
    Ratings:
    +373
    Well, you already have it. Beam NG. Google it.
    I believe picture from opening post is from it too...
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  13. Flipdo3

    Flipdo3

    Messages:
    88
    Ratings:
    +88
    I basically want BeamNG with proper, thought out and complex driving physics and aerodynamics. I've actually been quite annoyed lately at how much damage gets ignored. as far as i'm concerned, crashes are one of the most important parts of simracing as a game with janky damage takes you immediately out of any immersion you may have got. (e.g assetto corsa pinging cars off as soon as they hit any walls on mod tracks, despite not giving any information on how to stop this from happening)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. VernWozza

    VernWozza
    Premium

    Messages:
    219
    Ratings:
    +81
    Animated repair system? As in a pit crew working on the car?

    If that's what you mean, I could live without that if I'm honest. I'm not bothered about seeing the car being worked on. Especially if you go in to the pits with a broken engine and bent suspension and somehow the pit crew are magically able to repair it in the space of a 60 second stop. That annoys me too.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  15. Rob

    Rob
    XBO: OctoberDusk06 Premium

    Messages:
    8,501
    Ratings:
    +3,073
    This is a wonderful topic and is a metaphor for so so many things in racing games that are not tethered to reality. When I first started racing, the only thing I knew was what racing was actually like. I had never gamed (seriously) until I was 42 or so. I had raced non-professionally (either legally or illegally) my whole life. I also didn't have any real PC experience or care to pull my hair out every night trying to even get to play. So I bought a console. Since I knew nothing byt realism, I tried to eliminate all things that I didn't recognize as being involved in the racing world. Day 1 - cockpit; no assists; hardest A.I., no restarts, no flashbacks, since I didn't know what they were, and no

    Anyway, bad choice #1. lol. The second was to buy what looked like the best developed game for racing out there on console -- Forza. Bad choice #2. Then I got a Fanatec wheel (XBO 360 Forza wheel) that was utter and complete garbage, along with their pedals. Bad Choice #3. You can see how well equipped I was to dive right into the realism, eh? Yet, I was hooked, even with that garbage. Forza has a damage model that was half decent, but not complete. As you can see below, it was getting there, and had promise, Turn 10 corporatized it.


    Assetto is kind of pathetic, but I don't blame them in any way for that (since they get the amount and feel right in a vague sense, even if the looks are comical). They are a small team with big priorities, and damage in low man.

    Many problems across many games:

    1. Where are the jaws of life and medical teams when the accident is life threatening? Carried out on a stretcher? One race ban for recovery!
    2. F1 is the worst. Those cars get punctures that de-laminate, they blow parts all the time. They can't even race because someone put too many parts in to keep track of. The game itself is improving, but it's as far away from realistic damage as any game.
    3. Licensing, of course.
    4. Sounds don't even match -- for instance, you hear glass breaking when you crash an IndyCar. WTF?
    5. Fortunately, PC2 has stepped up the visuals of damage so that it's more detailed, but touching wheels at 50mph, just barely, should not see you socked with 50% in the front, thus ending your race. It's a case where some geeks formula got in the way or what really happens. Oddly enough, on the console, the DiRT franchise is the best compromise of them all.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2017
  16. VernWozza

    VernWozza
    Premium

    Messages:
    219
    Ratings:
    +81
    I have to say I was expecting everyone to say that they didn't care for updating the damage model in Sims. I'm pleasantly surprised.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Emery

    Emery

    Messages:
    1,169
    Ratings:
    +342
    Often the features are there, but unused (or used in a perfunctory fashion). Original rFactor had scrapes, deformable vertices, and detachable parts, but few mods ever made use of all of those features. Too often the only detachable parts were wheels and a perfectly shaped front spoiler.

    Instead, where detachable parts are available, fiberglass fenders should break on a ragged line and part of the spoiler should break off. Make the left fender detach slightly different from the right fender.

    So many server admins turn damage down to 50%, 25%, or off. So many racers refuse to play if damage is 100% because they can't make more than a couple laps without an off.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  18. Reynaldo Luna

    Reynaldo Luna

    Messages:
    3
    Ratings:
    +1
    I would like to see something even more drastic. I would like to see fiery flaming crashes with black smoke billowing into the sky. The kind of fire and smoke effects they have in the Mad Max game. I want the rain on the windshield from Drive Club. The car list from Forza and the over the top sounds from earlier Need for Speed games. Put all that into Project Cars 3. Sorry, if it's a little of topic... And yes, better damage. 16214913640_5cab805c7e_c.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2017
    • Haha Haha x 1
  19. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo

    Messages:
    1,413
    Ratings:
    +456
    I dont get why people need to take erything as black and white lol
    It's up to you what get repaired. Devs usually give options, isn't it?! Expand the idea mate, think...
    Damage repair animation does not need to repair a whole engine in 60 seconds, what game will repair engine in race anyway? They all DNF you, isn't it?
    While in practice if you damage your car it should take just as long to repair it and the real time it takes to change an engine (also an option in case people just want to hit Esc and get new stuff)
    Number of spare chassis should be limited (# option)
    Number of engines should be limited (# option)
    Trackside action is important. I'd like to after watching a Petit Le Mans get into a sim and have that experience simulated. None of them do it now, absolutely none. They all lack immersion on the environment aspect. They are all just driving sims now (and still fail on it in one way or another)
    Like I said expand the idea. Geez.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. cr4wl3r0

    cr4wl3r0

    Messages:
    29
    Ratings:
    +18
    Realistic damage model and realistic collisions model are just a required components for a complete driving simulation, because damage and collisions are important aspects of real racing.
    It' s a shame that today almost every sim racing simulation lacks in this aspect.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1