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FFB / Real Feel Question

Discussion in 'Stock Car Extreme' started by Jack Sargent, Jul 3, 2012.

  1. Hi,

    I just bought GSC 2012 and I am really enjoying it. It's the first sim I have ever played where drifting actually feels natural and doesn't require you to learn when to counter steer, you just feel it and it works. Great stuff.

    Anyway the FFB on the whole is really nice and requires no setting up to get a good feeling..........however.

    For me I am missing some of the low speed feeling. The FFB feels wonderful when the tyres are loaded up in high speed corners but in slow 2nd gear corners I just have hardly any feeling on turn in.

    Now I know I can increase the max force at steering rack using right Ctrl and NP 7 and I can get a bit more feeling into the wheel by doing this but it makes the other forces too pronounced, especially in the high speed stuff.

    Is there a way I can get some low speed feeling back without having too much force in other situations???

    In the RealFeelPlugin.ini file........

    What about the steering damper? I don't want to mess with these settings too much as the FFB already feels excellent......just that I am missing a little feeling in the slow stuff.

    Could someone explain the "FrontGripEffect" to me?? Also what are the four settings below "SmoothingLevel"??

    I am using a Logitech G25 btw.........maybe the lack of feeling is just due to my now very old wheel? :-D

    Thanks very much for any advice.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. To get only the realfeel FFB you need to make sure the in-game force feedback effects (in the controls menu) setting is set to low. If it is set to medium or high canned effects are added.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Right. Not what I asked. Doesn't help me at all but thanks for the effort I guess.:confused:
     
  4. Thanks for posting this information Anthony. I'm new to GSC and info like this is greatly appreciated!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. From the developer of RealFeel, after he made the GSC RealFeel plugin:

    1) VehicleDelimiterSize

    This simply defines how much of the vehicle name to use to define the ini file entries, to give modders a bit more flexibility in defining which cars share RealFeel ini entries.

    2) DefaultFrontGripEffect

    This is a bit of a fudge that when set above zero will provide an additional steering force reduction when the front tyres are sliding. Maximum recommended value is 1.0 which will provide a 100% drop in force when 100% of the contact patch is sliding.

    3) DefaultKf, Ks, A & Kr

    I have implemented Leo's "Parking Lot" FFB code which now cuts in when vehicle speed is below 'MinSpeed' as defined in the RealFeel ini. Quite what the various parameters mean I'm not too sure as it's just a copy of Leo's code.
     
  6. I dont know the answer as I use the stock FFB and for me and my G27 its perfect, however I wanted to say thats a very nice Elan avatar you have there Jack :D
     
  7. Thanks very much Paul.:)

    Took it myself at a Shelsley Walsh Vintage Hillclimb event last year. How I do love those little Loti........one day, one day.

    Until then I have my fake Elan...........a Mazda Mx5 MKI. :D Still probably more reliable than the Lotus anyway.
     
  8. Any takers on the original question???

    Cheers.
     
  9. Niels_at_home

    Niels_at_home
    Reiza Studios

    There isn't really anything different for low / high speed FFB, cars tend to respond less well, less fast, at low speeds.

    You may try to increase Kr=3.0 to say 9. This very quickly removes stationary FFB feel as you start driving but I doubt it does much difference once you are at slow corner speeds.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Thanks for the response Niels. I will give it a go.

    I can get some low speed feeling back by increasing the max force but that then causes clipping in high load situations and just too much force.

    I guess I will just have to learn to like it.

    Cheers.
     
  11. Niels_at_home

    Niels_at_home
    Reiza Studios

    The inferiority of our wheels compared to real cars is huge. Force feedabck will probably always be a controversial area. Because the wheels can't do realistic forces, people seem to look for a certain 'feel'.

    From a physics point of view, force feedback isn't difficult at all. A lot of the things people WANT to feel simply are not really a part of real life steering forces.

    Because of the game like nature of steering wheels, we are aware our default settings cause clipping, simply because doing it without clipping makes people ''feel nothing'' as they are used to clipped FFB.

    Downforce is a huge player but on consumer grade wheels, you simply have no FFB left if you want a fast corner to work your FFB wheel 100%. Then in a hairpin, you'd get say 30%, which equals to 'almost nothing' on a G25 class wheel..

    Its not something sim developers can do much about, so it will remain a subjecitve thing, hence that some people love the shakiest most clipping FFB and some like it less rough (what:S:S) :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. it would be nice to provide some sort of multiplier based on speed. For instance, if you're taking a slow corner, multiply the ffb by 1,5, and so on... this would probably cause some "stair effect", but with a good formula, I guess it should be doable to simulate ffb more properly. Anyway, I'm not complaining, just a thought.
     
  13. You are right of course.

    I want to feel things through my G25 that I would never feel through the steering wheel in my MX5 on real roads. The "seat of the pants" feeling that you get in a real car is obviously missing from our simulations thus we feel the need (justifiably) to add certain cues from the FFB that are not present in real life in order to make it feel more realistic, even if the additional forces are infact, not realistic.

    The low speed feeling I am talking about is one of them and unfortunately it is one that really annoys me the most when I can't "feel" anything.

    The solution I guess is to buy a FFB wheel capable of producing higher forces with a higher resolution. Until then I will continue to try and fudge a solution with my rapidly aging Logitech. :)
     
  14. Niels,do u consider that most people have g25/27 wheels and not high end wheels like urs?
    I can accept that some people like ffb that shakes the wheel(even if i think gsc ffb is on the other side,the "quite" side),but ffb exists to give us info cause we dont have other "sources" to feel whats goin on,on tyres car etc..right?
    I mean we dont have a chasis to feel the car or forces,we have a wheel for that.
    So,shouldnt be a priority in sims to feel the tyres as much as we can,especially in slow corners and then all the others?(of course under/over steer included)

    About ur last sentance,why in netkar i feel the rear tyres in slow corners?Also in rfactor 2 but only in old formulas and in the skippy car.
    (btw im the guy that sent u on youtube..)

    Is there a solution like: put a multiplyer and as speed goes faster the multiprlyer reduces..?
    Maybe in words is easy to write but in coding is a hell..i really dont know,just asking to understand why is this happening and not only in gsc but almost in every sim.

    I have the same thoughts with Jack and this little thing prevented me from buing.
    I find the title very good package but im a "nerd" i guess with physics and ffb,sorry :cautious:
     
  15. Yeah I have to agree with the posts above that some FFB at low speeds would be nice!

    Its also a shame that even on low ffb, the curbs (and other off-road activities) still cause the wheel to rattle, the sort of rattle that annoys my fiancee as she is trying to watch her soaps!
    I would have liked low to mean without canned or environmental effects.

    It does seem impossible to play GSC2012 with only wheel forces through my G27 and no effects.

    Hopefully this is the point that someone tells me a line of code to tweak.... :D :D
     
  16. Niels_at_home

    Niels_at_home
    Reiza Studios

    FFB is always an interesting discussion! These are just my personal thoughts, and don't necesarily fully reflect what we at Reiza will end up doing.

    For cars with downforce, it would be a good idea to have a speed dependent FFB multiplier, so hairpins and fast bends both 'max out' the FFB, giving you as detailed feedback as possible. This is not technically too hard either.

    There is low speed and low speed; on the race track low speeds will still be 30mph / 45km/h. FFB behaviour near standstill is a different thing but not really important as race sims are not parking sims. The latest realfeel can mix some Leo with some TechAde so you get some resistance at standstill, so it doesn't feel completely weird! For GSC and in real life, at low speeds you encounter fewer track bumps per second, and their impact on the car is less. Road information through the wheel will fade out as you go slower, but that is logical. Other than that, I can't really see what could be 'missing' from low (30+mph) speed, only that downforce cars have weak FFB at these speeds. So my question is, what tends to be missing in sims / low speed FFB?

    Adding effects to compensate for not being in the real car is something I never felt the need for. I use experience and my eyes / ears to 'feel' the car. FFB doesn't tell me, because it simply doesn't always work like this, if I've reached the maximum grip or when the back end is sliding. It all depends on what is happening. FFB is a force that tries to keep the front tires rolling in the direction the car is moving or sliding. This is great because the center of steering isn't always 'straight ahead'.

    Getting in oversteer, the center of steering moves towards opposite lock. FFB will guide you towards this new 'center' and helps you apply just the right amount of opposite lock. Too much opposite lock will make the FFB force change direction again. So in short, opposite lock is first aided by FFB, then after you've reached the ideal amount of opposite lock, FFB will try to prevent you from applying more. FFB will try to catch the silde for you!

    Getting out of oversteer is hugely important. Doing it badly can cause nasty tank slappers and expensive crashes. FFB should have prevented you from applying too much opposite lock, but as you take throttle away and the car begins to straighten out, FFB again will help you find the new stable center position of the wheel, which is likely to be more or less straight ahead. Both the timing and the amount of steering is very important and a good FFB wheel in a 'sluggish big car' might even get out of oversteer by itself!

    Letting go of the wheel in oversteer is NOT a good idea (most of the time), as you probably want to manually apply some over or under correction combined with your experience as a driver to get the car to do what you want. FFB is just a HUGE help, it tells you where the car is happy so you can make small adjustments from this happy place to get the car doing what you want. This goes for drifting but just as much for racing at smaller angles. FFB tells you where the 'center' of steering is, and all the action happens say within 45 degrees of steering wheel lock around this center.

    All I really care about here is to feel forces build up as I move away from the center. Ideally this is stong enough to really let me feel where the wheel wants to be, but all I care about is "a force" in "the direction towards the current FFB center". I do NOT look for any specific micro detail. There is no wheel that will tell you the tires are 80 or 90 degrees, or if they are 20kpa over inflated. I'm sure my Bodnar wheel will notice it, but while driving, us humans are busy with a load of things. A few % change in forces are unlikely to be noticed.

    The other part I find very important is locked brakes. FFB will go very light when you lock both front tires. It doesn't always tell you the inside wheel is locked because this is usually a lightly loaded tire that only has a small effect on the total FFB. The outside front, highly loaded tire is the one causing the main forces, but this is the case in real life as well.

    So I just want there to be a force around the 'center' of steering, where the center can move about depending on under/over steer. I really don't look for 1% changes in FFB because of tire wear or heat, as even though my Bodnar wheel will measurably feel different, us humans won't really feel the difference. On a G25 class wheel, subtle force effects are simply more likely to exist between the ears rather than between the hands. :)

    Even something seemingly simple as the FFB telling you how much grip the tires have isn't so easy. In steady cornering, FFB will start to fall when grip is still increasing. Sure you can feel the FFB is increasing and stabilizing, or falling off, but that tells you nothing about your G forces. If you only felt the tire part of the FFB, some cars would have NEGATIVE force feedback by the time you reach maximum grip. Odd eh! So FFB is a rubbish G meter.

    Given limitations of the G25 class wheels, adding speed dependent FFB for downforce cars makes sense. You would feel a decent amount of FFB in hairpins rather than feeling pretty much nothing, while having no clipping of forces occur at higher speeds. I see no real reason for adding other effects, like vibration around 'peak grip' or canned bumpyness or kerbstone effects. If the circuit modeling is good, you will feel kerbs and the road just fine.

    But that is my 2 cents (well, more like 2 euro!) on the matter. Again, even with my G25 I never really wanted to feel specific things. It did the main job that I explained above. Nowadays with my Bodnar wheel it does the same, just a lot better and stronger so it is even more of a help telling me where 'neutral stering position' is. Then its up to my experience to make the car go quickly around the circuit..

    But that doesn't mean there aren't any good ideas to improve FFB, so if you have ideas, I can offer my perspective on them..
     
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  17. Another thing that may be considered is to play with the "dampening" effect. I don't know what kind of results this would provide, but I've been experimenting with damper settings a little, and I've found that adding small damper settings provides some kind of "weight" do the wheel, feeling a little more like being "connected to the road". It would be nice to have the effect slightly diminished when driving at higher speeds.
    Perhaps dynamically playing with the damper settings (along with the ffb force) depending on speed could make things even better (let's say in small ranges - 0 to 10% max).
     
  18. Cool,thanks for clearing this and thanks for the info.
    I can understand that someone who races for real or was a real racer maybe likes a stronger ffb even if he doesnt fell the tyres,cause in real he recieves the info of the car from the chasis(for example),but i never driven a race car so my logic says if i havent a chasis i need the wheel/screen/speakers to do the work of recieving info from the simulator,thats why i prefer a more accurate ffb even if the real wheel doesnt work like that.(Maybe the guys that own a motion simulator hate me right now :p )
    The only thing that i want is the feeling when i loose grip or when from no grip i get it back especially in slow corners so i can push the car,thats my joy in sim racing! Driving the car on limit and feeling in my wheel that im on the edge on a turn!

    Edit:What i wrote is just me of course,i understand that some may like it or not.
     
  19. I noticed something else the other night whilst doing a 30min race online and also in races of a similar length against the AI.

    The FFB gets weaker the longer you drive for. In both the V8s and the F3 I definitely noticed forces getting weaker as the race went on. By the end of the race I really had to concerntrate to actually feel what was going on.

    I don't recall ever experiencing this in any other sim before but 100% that is what was happening.

    Obviously as the car uses fuel it gets lighter and the tyres wear down there is less weight and less grip but should I really be experiencing this drop off in forces? I think the fuel cannot have anything to do with it as it feels correct if I go out very light for qually........so that leaves the tyres.

    Could I be imagining this loss of force??

    I would be interested to hear if anyone else has had the same thign happen to them?
     
  20. I feel this in races up to 20 min or so (never raced more than this on 2012 version). I am pretty sure that the grip goes away pretty fast and the wheel gets lighter (simulating tire wear?) but still have to test if it goes all the way up to completely loose the ffb in longer races.