D -Box 4250i G3 VS Next Level Traction Plus and V3

[RCHeliguy]

I think guys just like to get caught up in "length" issues

But let's be real about this. If there were no advantage to having more travel, D-Box wouldn't have actuators available with more travel.

That tells me that there are limitations to the motion of the ocean and that at least for some a little extra length improves satisfaction.

If you saw the recent GamerMuscles video showing the Gen 5, the Gen5 system was set up for driving on a track and there was a longer travel Gen 3 system setup for Rally. I have no doubt that the longer actuators work well for Rally.

This entire conversation is completely framed around the fact there is dramatic increase in price for the longer travel D-Box system knocking it out of the running and because of that, the comparison is between competing systems with different range.

Let's be blunt about this. I just purchased a Gen 5 system and I'm excited about it, but I have not drunk the Kool Aid so to speak. If their Gen5 longer travel system were available and priced reasonably close to the system I purchased, would I have purchased it instead? Very likely.

There is ABSOLUTELY a software component to this. I have no doubt that the D-Box system has better software driving it and I suspect that they are maximizing feel of the travel available very effectively.

I also expect it to have better long term reliability, better service after the sale, great EMI shielding, no actuator whine issues, etc.. etc.. and it is in the cleanest form factor I've ever seen.

So then the question becomes how big a difference the software makes in using the travel available in the most efficient and effective way.

I hope to have my D-Box Gen 5 system pretty soon and I hope to have my initial impressions of it shortly after that. I run exclusively in VR and I've noticed that a little motion goes a long way in VR and that tactile feels stronger when I don't see myself in the room and instead see myself in the car.

The NLRv3 has a larger range of angle at 20 degrees of motion than the longer travel 4 actuator systems do. So I will be losing range of angle. If I were to notice this, it would likely be in flight, but there is also a hell of a good impact landing from a jump with the NLRv3 in Rally games and I'll be very curious to see how the D-Box Gen 5 handles that situation and how believable it is in VR. The NLRv3 also manages a very convincing barrel roll and some other effects, so I may in fact be a bit underwhelmed by that. On the other hand the heave effects for turbulence and other things may be much better.

The other thing I'll be curious about is how well the DCS flight haptic effects are since SimHub doesn't support DCS and SimVibe is in beta testing with DCS.

Anyway lots to check out. My intent is to very temporarily leave the NLRv3 on the my rig to do a bit of A/B testing. However I'm also looking forward to having a rigid seat on sliders, so I'm not expecting to have any regrets.

Since the VAST majority of us have never had the chance to A/B these systems to see how big a difference there is between them, it unfortunately mostly becomes a debate where people defend what they own and the purchase depends on how much you respect someone's opinion and how much you trust the competing manufacturers.

However even if you have my feedback, it will only be using the data points from an NLRv3 and D-Box Gen 5. I won't be able to tell you how it feels compared to anything else.

 

[John Bruno]

I think guys just like to get caught up in "length" issues

But let's be real about this. If there were no advantage to having more travel, D-Box wouldn't have actuators available with more travel.

If you saw the recent GamerMuscles video showing the Gen 5, the Gen5 system was set up for driving on a track and there was a longer travel Gen 3 system setup for Rally. I have no doubt that the longer actuators work well for Rally.

This entire conversation is completely framed around the fact there is dramatic increase in price for the longer travel D-Box system knocking it out of the running and because of that, the comparison is between competing systems with different range.

Let's be blunt about this. I just purchased a Gen 5 system and I'm excited about it, but I have not drunk the Kool Aid so to speak. If their Gen5 longer travel system were available and priced reasonably close to the system I purchased, would I have purchased it instead? Very likely.

There is ABSOLUTELY a software component to this. I have no doubt that the D-Box system has better software driving it and I suspect that they are maximizing feel of the travel available very effectively.

I also expect it to have better long term reliability, better service after the sale, great EMI shielding, no actuator whine issues, etc.. etc.. and it is in the cleanest form factor I've ever seen.

So then the question becomes how big a difference the software makes in using the travel available in the most efficient and effective way.

I hope to have my D-Box Gen 5 system pretty soon and I hope to have my initial impressions of it shortly after that. I run exclusively in VR and I've noticed that a little motion goes a long way in VR and that tactile feels stronger when I don't see myself in the room and instead see myself in the car.

The NLRv3 has a larger range of angle at 20 degrees of motion than the longer travel 4 actuator systems do. So I will be losing range of angle. If I were to notice this, it would likely be in flight, but there is also a hell of a good impact landing from a jump with the NLRv3 in Rally games and I'll be very curious to see how the D-Box Gen 5 handles that situation and how believable it is in VR. The NLRv3 also manages a very convincing barrel roll and some other effects, so I may in fact be a but underwhelmed by that. On the other hand the heave effects for turbulence and other things may be much better.

The other thing I'll be curious about is how well the DCS flight haptic effects are since SimHub doesn't support DCS and SimVibe is in beta testing with DCS.

Anyway lots to check out. My intent is to very temporarily leave the NLRv3 on the my rig to do a bit of A/B testing. However I'm also looking forward to having a rigid seat on sliders, so I'm not expecting to have any regrets.

Since the VAST majority of us have never had the chance to A/B these systems to see how big a difference there is between them, it unfortunately mostly becomes a debate where people defend what they own and the purchase depend on how much you respects someone's opinion and how much you trust the manufacturers.

However even if you have my feedback, it will only be using the data points from an NLRv3 and D-Box Gen 5. I won't be able to tell you how it feels compared to anything else.

As stated in other forums, I'm looking forward to your review Mark, hope you get your early Xmas gift by end of the week. Video would be great.

 

[RCHeliguy]

As stated in other forums, I'm looking forward to your review Mark, hope you get your early Xmas gift by end of the week. Video would be great.

At this point I expect video is required.

But please keep in mind that even though I consider all these things just toys to amuse me and don't tie my self worth to my possessions, it doesn't mean I won't get new toy giddiness. That is a very real thing. I don't trust opinions of people who just got a new toy until the new has worn off. So while I'll happily share my initial thoughts, I would be a lot more interested in how I feel about it in a few months than shortly after I opened the box.

 

[NetLawMan]

Totally Agree with HeliGuy. There is a difference, but you have to decide if it is worth it. In the dbox ecosystem- I can’t justify the extra expense (double the price for 3 inches and triple the price for 6 inches). In the Sigma DK ecosystem, you can go to the 6” system for about a 35% premium - that’s pretty good.

The reason I mention looking at the DK thread is because there is a discussion about what you need to take into account - setup wise, if you go to a 6” system. Also, there is a discussion about effects layers (environmental layer; suspension later, etc.), and how travel is used to create effects (and how it is often not fully utilized by companies that sell you 6” actuators, only to not leverage that travel or over-exaggerate it).

Finally, those thread discussions as well as the white papers on the Sigma website really do give you great info, whether you choose DK or D-box.

Full disclosure - I have D-Box gen 3 (1.5). I would never pay the premium dbox is asking for more travel. Right now, the only other vendor I am considering if I move up in travel is Sigma. But I have not done so yet - my own personal situation is that I am not ready to invest the time/money needed to address all the logistical/HW issues I would need to address to safely have an enjoyable 6 inch travel system.

 

[OlaGB]

Just dont install the Dbox like Vesaro did on the rig Gamemuscle tested, all the way out in the ends og the rig.
That kill’s _alot_ of pitch movement.

 

[NetLawMan]

A great vid on a 6” dbox system in action. Notice that despite being longer travel, the driver is not being thrown around like an amusement park ride.

 

[Tronicgr_6DOF]

A great vid on a 6” dbox system in action. Notice that despite being longer travel, the driver is not being thrown around like an amusement park ride.

I don't see any road details affect the motion cues either. Seems like the car have really soft suspensions or its a boat.

 

[metalnwood]

Generally I see 6" systems using the extra length so that they can mix more roll/pitch with the same movement they may have had with a smaller system.

I dont really hear about people just multiplying the effects to cover 6" but they may add in more roll/pitch for banked sections like daytona and lime rock while normal heave/roll/pitch from kerbs/road being the same.

Not to say there are not lots of people making vids to show the rig being thrown around but i guess it still comes down to preference.

 

[metalnwood]

I don't see any road details affect the motion cues either. Seems like the car have really soft suspensions or its a boat.

Thats actually what I thought, they used a bit of the 6" but it was driving a bentley and not what I think is good use of 6"

 

[NetLawMan]

I don't see any road details affect the motion cues either. Seems like the car have really soft suspensions or its a boat.

I have never been able to film road detail or other high frequency effects With any camera I have. GI feel them though . I haven’t driven Beam NG with my dbox so I am not sure what the motion experience is.

 

[NetLawMan]

Generally I see 6" systems using the extra length so that they can mix more roll/pitch with the same movement they may have had with a smaller system.

I dont really hear about people just multiplying the effects to cover 6" but they may add in more roll/pitch for banked sections like daytona and lime rock while normal heave/roll/pitch from kerbs/road being the same.

Not to say there are not lots of people making vids to show the rig being thrown around but i guess it still comes down to preference.

Right! My understanding from the Sigma DK guys is that a 6” system allows a better combination of effects layers. They provide a great description in their vendor thread. I have Dbox now, but if I were to move to 6”, I would move to sigma as there is no way I am paying a $20k premium to go from 1.5 to 6.

 

[NetLawMan]

Thats actually what I thought, they used a bit of the 6" but it was driving a bentley and not what I think is good use of 6"

It seems to me that the main benefits of the 6” system are limited to more heave for certain genres (Rally, monster truck), and then a potentially improved experience where heave and roll (or heave and pitch) are needed at the same time. That is why I think the 6” d-box system hits a proverbial diminishing-returns brick wall due to the ridiculous cost.

 

[NetLawMan]

Perhaps a better example since the game is the well established DR 2.0. It seems more lively than BeamNG.

 

[metalnwood]

Out of curiosity, as I don't know anything about the dbox software, can you control how much roll and pitch is applied for different things?

Example - if I go over a sausage kerb and the car might roll 30 degrees from telemetry, will the rig roll the same amount as when you go on banked oval that is banked at 30 degrees?

So here is a possible wanted behavior for the rig - I may want to feel the banking at 30 degrees on the oval but when the car is launched 30 degrees from a sausage I sure as heck dont want the rig to actually buck 30 degrees for a part of a second, thats way too violent.

I think these kinds of behaviors are needed to make use in racing for long actuators.

 

[NetLawMan]

Out of curiosity, as I don't know anything about the dbox software, can you control how much roll and pitch is applied for different things?

Example - if I go over a sausage kerb and the car might roll 30 degrees from telemetry, will the rig roll the same amount as when you go on banked oval that is banked at 30 degrees?

So here is a possible wanted behavior for the rig - I may want to feel the banking at 30 degrees on the oval but when the car is launched 30 degrees from a sausage I sure as heck dont want the rig to actually buck 30 degrees for a part of a second, thats way too violent.

I think these kinds of behaviors are needed to make use in racing for long actuators.

You can control these attributes. The good thing about these systems is that they incredibly fast and nimble, but as mentioned earlier, it comes across the opposite in recordings. The main purpose of sharing was to highlight that 6” of travel does not mean you are moving up and down 6” repeatedly.

 

[Tronicgr_6DOF]

You can control these attributes. The good thing about these systems is that they incredibly fast and nimble, but as mentioned earlier, it comes across the opposite in recordings. The main purpose of sharing was to highlight that 6” of travel does not mean you are moving up and down 6” repeatedly.

Yep... that's how most long stroke actuator systems work, using small range for road details (vibration) and subtle motion cues, and slower large angles positioning for sustained motion cues like accelerations (surge/sway).

 

[No Depth]

Just catching up and all I will add is that having used a Gen 5 D-Box system since June, I find myself regularly upping the motion sliders well over default. This has typically been the opposite experience when previously also using an NLRv3 similar to Heli above.

According to software, a setting of 40 is typically default with steps of 6 doubling the effect. In some or many cases I am pushing motion axes upwards of 52. Granted I want a rollercoaster and lately ive been playing more arcade games like FH5 and Grid Legends so it kind of fits, especially when showing off to others. iRacing in comparison feels fine scaled back closer to default or with a smaller bump in my testing. ACC, I think I run 46 ish.

I don’t feel I’m being shaken around, but rather the sensation is just more apparent. It can be subtle at default and a Bit scaled back from the feeling of being rocked as using the NLRv3. Though the advantages with D-Box I still find outweigh the seat mover.

I am also using monitors and without some in-game compensation, such as dash motion, it can further temper the feel. I do notice that some titles have locked horizons in dash cam, so your dash/hood/car is always stable while the environment might move independently and it can create an awkward feel as your car on screen is static but the rig is bounding. Just a subtle effect that i wish more sims have settings for as the motion feels more natural in games where the dash is moving with the surface changes. Certainly its such a niche use case as I’m not sure controller players or those on static rigs care too have the dash tilting and zooming about while playing.

It does push me to want to consider VR. I expect this setup shines with it and everything is amplified.

I will add that I have noticed some neat haptic effects that my tactile cannot reproduce. Splashing through water for instance in FH5, gives a very unique effect and feel through the rig that i was not expecting. Initially I had the haptics turned off as I relied on my transducers for vibrations, but lately I am having both working in tandem as there are a number of effects that feel unique to the D-Box.

I do wish the effect tooltips did a better job describing what D-box is doing. Some sliders leave me questioning what they actually do outside the obvious, like motion and engine. More explanation when hovering would be ideal, especially for a mature system.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Very cool!

In my experience everything is amplified with VR and a little motion goes a long way. I've also noticed that tactile effects feel better.

I've never used motion compensation with the NLRv3. I've found my head tends to act like a natural gimbal as the seat moves around. I'm expecting something similar with the D-Box. Since it's range of motion isn't huge, it seems likely I won't need compensation.

Have you tried splashing through water in Dirt Rally 2.0 ? I'm curious what kind of telemetry queues it's working with, but now I know I'll need to try that out just to see if it does

 

[No Depth]

Very cool!

In my experience everything is amplified with VR and a little motion goes a long way. I've also noticed that tactile effects feel better.

I've never used motion compensation with the NLRv3. I've found my head tends to act like a natural gimbal as the seat moves around. I'm expecting something similar with the D-Box. Since it's range of motion isn't huge, it seems likely I won't need compensation.

Have you tried splashing through water in Dirt Rally 2.0 ? I'm curious what kind of telemetry queues it's working with, but now I know I'll need to try that out just to see if it does

Not tried much DR 2.0 yet. Not a big rally guy but I would like to learn. I will give it a go this weekend. I expect the heave adds a lot, really love bounding over sand dunes or ramps in Horizon 5, and with the uneven surfaces in DR 2, I expect a lot of similar chatter in the rig.

One thing I have noticed in Codemaster games(Grid and F1 to a lesser extent) is that it’s fantastic they have native support, including a D-box toggle in menus! But some effects can be harsh and seemingly coupled with others.

Grid for instance has a REALLY harsh gear change and suspension effect. No matter how I adjust the sliders it feels like it just slams the actuators hard. Hitting a curb can be violent at times even. It’s the only game where I found dialing down the overall gain slider in the game profile(from 100 to even 50 in the case of Grid) was the only solution to correct. None of the effect sliders softened that. Even bern considering reaching out to D-Box to look into this.

F1 is also impacted but not to the same degree. Seems a Codemaster issue as most other sims I can keep at default 100. Granted setting at 50 gain isn’t disrupting other motion and effects too much I think, but I dial them way up to compensate and the heavy whiplash of gear change and curbs is now softer. But I was at a point of being unable to play these games as it was so uncomfortable until I tried the gain slider! (And each game can have multiple profiles and custom effect setups btw. So it need not be a global change. Kind of like NLRv3 software, but again I wish for more detailed tooltips).

I’ll report if DR 2.0 has similar issues.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Interesting. I felt like the NLRv3 implementation for Dirt Rally 2.0 worked very well! Landing after a jump was fantastic! It only makes sense because it has a LOT more angle than the D-Box is capable of even a 6" motion system would have trouble giving you 20 degrees of angle range and the NLRv3 would pitch you back as you started a jump and then dump you forward when you landed. The absolute best effect that it has in Rally. It completely sells it.

I'm in iRacing, RBR(when it's working) and Dirt Rally 2.0 mostly.

I have very good SC2 Pro profiles for each of these. RBR feels very good in terms of physics and control. It is missing some of the effects I get in Dirt Rally 2.0. I also have very good Tactile profiles for all of these. However the RBR is a bit simpler than my Dirt Rally 2.0 profile.