Season 10, Race 2 at Silverstone - General discussion

[Steeve Fournier]

i complete a 22 min race. Made 13 laps, best was lap 11, 1:47:5 and tires was still in very good shape. So if its still 1x tires wear, forget about 2 stop strategy

Steeve (your volunteer test driver)

 

[Helder Filipe]

it seems that the home boys, are imposing their rules, and for now dominating the practice times for their own Grand Prix.
With impressive times around 1:45.3** and 1:45.4** and a spectacular driving, good work Sean/David, this GP promises with this super fast corners, for now i can get a little more closer from them with 1:45.7 not bad, let's see the improvements but looks good times for Silverstone, well a short resume of the practice for now.

 

[Sean Greenlaw]

Rumours were that there was alot of sandbagging goin on to

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

I could use some guidance from the guys in the back, what kind of times can you do on racefuel? And from all, how much you can expect to lose with added weight?

Tire wear seems not to be an issue so fuel management has larger effect. Noticed that i need to use the usual higher brake mapping to keep it steady, much more precise about correct rev ranges than MMG (not a surprise, F1 drivetrain has much less inertia and the "correct" rev range during braking is huuge, several thousands whereas F3000 it's few hundreds. Increased brake mapping makes the brakings alot easier (along with higher coast values on diff lock) but increases fuel consumption.

You could say i'm half-in now, not making that commitments yet (sorry girls ) but todays test run was somewhat successful. Spent about 45 minutes online, 20 minutes offline and seems like i can catch the back of the grid (1:49 started to appear more commonly to the timing screen) . There should be no late night wednesday school projects in the near future either..

 

[Sean Greenlaw]

Do you know what the brake/engine map scales or limits are with the f3000 Kennet ?

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

I could use some guidance from the guys in the back, what kind of times can you do on racefuel? And from all, how much you can expect to lose with added weight?

I did a 22min stint earlier today, and my laptimes ranged from 1:50,5 to 1:48,957 (last lap). My next goal is to keep all laps between 1:48,00-1:49,999.

I think 0,2-0,25 per ten liters is an ok guesstimate (or one tenth a lap)

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

Do you know what the brake/engine map scales or limits are with the f3000 Kennet ?

Nope but you're not the first to ask that. I'll open some files and check it out. I'm guessing it's 1-10.

 

[Peter Marshall]

Nope but you're not the first to ask that. I'll open some files and check it out. I'm guessing it's 1-10.

If you do look into F3000 engineering specs Kennett, I'd like to know what the range limits are for the FinalDriveSetting. Only if you do.

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

Ok, some specs:

Engine mapping range: 0-5
 
Brake engine mapping range: 0-6
 
Optimum Oil temp: 110C
 
Max oil temp (after which engine starts receiving damage: 120.4  +2,9 (123.3 equals half engine lifetime,  126.2 it's one quarter etc)
 
Gear ratios: 74 (from 2.8 to 1.0)
 
Final drive: One setting only (ratio 10/35 = 3.5 rotations on the wheel equals 1 turn of crankshaft?)
 
HP: shown 461HP/8500RPM, actual without drivetrain: 624HP@8500RPM, natural non-aspirated engine power curve, no spikes or artificial plateaus.
 
Tires: (latLong is grip along lateral and longitudinal axis)
 
Dry Compound:
 
Optimum Tire temp: 90C (cold temp < 80C)
 
Front: DryLatLong 1.775/1.775
Front: WetLatLong: 1.175/1.175
Width: 35,5cm
Radius: 32,0cm
 
Rear: DryLatlong: 1.900/1.900
Rear: WetLatLong: 1.3/1.3
Width: 38cm
Radius: 32,5cm
 
Wet Compound:
 
Optimum temperature: 85C (cold temp < 85C)
 
Front: DryLatLong: 1.475/1.475
Front: WetLatLong: 1.675/1.675
Width: 35,5cm
Radius:: 32cm
 
Rear: DryLatLong: 1.600/1.600
Reat: WetLatLong: 1.800/1.800
Width 38cm
Radius: 32,5cm

So rear tires have more grip than front, no surprises. The aero values are harder to compare this time as i feel both MMG and FFR have a lot more efficient wings so i didn't include them. They looked consistent with FFR style, not a lot of base drag.

Optimum engine temps were higher than expected. About 105C-115C should be optimum range At 120C engine start breaking and it breaks fast with every 2,9C halving the engine lifetime.

Engine mappings are strict, only 6 steps (0-5) on power and 7 (0-6) on brake mapping where as MMG/FFR had more.

Third springs/dampers should be functional but i'm not sure about that.

Tire grip has symmetrical contact patch grip along both axis, ie the same force is required to move the vehicles sideways than back/front. This is being adjusted to correct contact patch shape with Radius and Width (good practice, IMHO) MMG had non-symmetrical initial contact patch grip and also modified Radius and Width, it may cause extreme values (dropoff/too high grip) along diagonal axis (X-Y/X+Y). These tires have smooth grip curve and should respond better to simulated events.

EDIT: Optimum tire temps added. Cold temp = below this you get a faster dropff on grip. Above the optimum you get a more gradual dropoff.

 

[Marko Vuori]

Here is a video of my best lap at Silverstone this far (1:45.015):

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

Here is a video of my best lap at Silverstone this far (1:45.015)

Now that's fast. Any chance of a setup in the setup thread. I can imagine it would be very anticipated

 

[Marko Vuori]

Now that's fast. Any chance of a setup in the setup thread. I can imagine it would be very anticipated

Ok, my setup is now in the setup thread also.

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

Kennett, the engine brake mapping, when will the engine brake the most, with setting 1 or 5? (nice to know before I start fiddling around with it).

1. That's is when the engine has the least amount of torque applied during braking, basically it shuts the fuel off if no throttle is pressed. 5 gives the more torque and increases fuel consumption as more fuel is pumped to cylinders during braking. This is the famous EBD that RBR was using previously, They used that mapping loophole to produce downforce, we obviously don't have that option. But it helps keeping the rear more stable during braking and helps hitting the right revs during downshifts. Too much engine brake map and the car refuses to stop efficiently.

For engine mapping it's the same principle. Higher value means more power on lower revs with higher fuel consumption.

Noticed watching Markos video that i go thru Copse 15km/h slower.. Wonder what wings are there (mine were 22/25) as i can do it max 220 using the whole width of the road hugging the inside quite heavily and still having to lift of before i ran in to the curbs on the outside, which i notice are a killer in those speeds.. No amount of curb hopping at all possible, just a touch of them on the outside of almost any corner and spin city here we go.

Is the first turn suppose to be on that driveline? It seems awfully risky as there is no curbs at all on the outside there and these cars tend to suck them selves to the grass once lightly touched by any wheel..

 

[Marko Vuori]

Noticed watching Markos video that i go thru Copse 15km/h slower.. Wonder what wings are there (mine were 22/25) as i can do it max 220 using the whole width of the road hugging the inside quite heavily and still having to lift of before i ran in to the curbs on the outside, ...

Is the first turn suppose to be on that driveline? It seems awfully risky as there is no curbs at all on the outside there and these cars tend to suck them selves to the grass once lightly touched by any wheel..

I used 23/24 wings, so actually slightly less downforce than you, but slightly more oversteering setup aerodynamically.

There's actually a small mistake in my hotlap at Turn 1. I shouldn't have touched the grass, so taking it 25 cm more to the right would probably have been perfect. I think I lost ~ 0.1 seconds there.

 

[Helder Filipe]

1:44.9**

 

[Richard Hill]

How do you adjust the engine brake ing maps cause it's always so unstable for me under braking. Also how do you guys brake so late and hard without spinning on downshifts? You guys are sooooooo fast lol great driving

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

Engine and brake mapping needs to be done with for ex notepad and directly editing the svm file. You can find that setup file in My Docs\SimBin\Race 07\Userdata\CarSetups\trackfolder. You don't need to shut down the game, just go to windows, edit that file and return to game and load that setup. Brake mapping is the last thing to do, try fixing the problem with conventional methods first. Rear toe in and differential locks coast, and of course brake balance are the primary methods. I only added brake mappping after everything else was done, certainly the least affecting part of that setup change. Increase Differential coast and rear toe in first, in that order.

Delay downshifts if you spin often when downshifting. You are most likely not hitting the right revs, delaying the shift will use lower revs in the engine and thus there's much less inertia stored on the engine. It can cause delays to the last downshift for the gear you need when exiting the corner and it may well be that you need a lot of throttle blib to get the engine back up to exit revs.. Better to do it right way keeping revs higher. It's harder as the engine has much more stored energy on it but it's faster, as you can get back to full power in less time. I struggle with this also, hard to get right revs.

I used also longer gear ratios on 1st to 4th gear (they are much closer together now = less rev difference between gears = easier to hit right revs...) I have to use 1st gear on the slowest corner simply because it handled a lot better during braking. It causes it's own problems, i have one more downshift to deal with and the rear is really slippery on that 1st gear, have to shortshift and that negates any acceleration benefit i would otherwise have. And of course i lose acceleration in the start.

I expect this "problem" to ease up with training as it's mostly just car characteristics and there's too much compromises to do in setup if i try to change the cars natural behavior. Hamilton and Alonso are maybe the best in the world doing this, "driving around the problem". They have a supernatural ability to change their driving style on-the-fly where as Button, who is equally fast, has more problems driving a car that's not exactly to his liking. Also real Aliens are good at this, they can take any car on default factory settings and post fastest laps straight out of the box.

EDIT: I added my setup in the setup thread. It should be easiest of the bunch, possibly also slowest.

 

[Sean Greenlaw]

I wouldnt go changing braking maps etc right away Richard it wont be reason, like Kennett says you have to delay you downshifts with these cars and also some steady throttle to control balance with braking and nearly all the time, you also can get lift off oversteer(when you lift off throttle its like applying handbrake to rear tires) best way i find to practise is to take a guys setup change very little maybe steering lock to what im used to and thats it and just practise alot with it, the more you learn from driving same setup again and again out weighs any minor improvement in setup.< I cannot recommend this enough as is the Method ive used pretty much since joining Presto
For example last night i went on and used Markos setup changed to 16 lock and 23/26 down to 23/24 wing. I used for a couple sessions and about 40 laps later i ended up with a slight pb 45.0, which i prob would have done if used setup from previous night anyway with added practise.

If you want to see if the mappings are effective for you own driving, i recommend practising until you hit your lap time and then trying 1 diff map setting at a time and being honest with yourself if laps was indeed comparable. You will then notice if makes any difference to your driving/laptime, for me i dont think they make much if any difference i was same speeds and used same fuel. Im sure me, Marko, Helder, Dino, Reik and David etc are using default maps 2 and 2. I havent played with braking map much though, so i supposed it may be different.

I seem to remember in season 2 to 3 there was some controversy with engine mappings supposed to benefit upto a second a lap better , but im sure in the end these were proven to not be true and were more of a placebo effect and indeed making next to no difference was final conclusion. I had abit of a lol thinking back and reading old times.
http://www.prestogp.com/pgptimes/2/

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

I agree with everything Sean sais, he's a wize man

I can also add that I believe Silverstone anno 2011 is a very technical track where drivers like me will need to do a lot of practice to "reach my potential". Alternatively I can practice normal amount and be 2 sec off the pace of the fastest group. Regardless I will have drivers to race

 

[Valter Ostman]

My SetupEditor for Race07 doesn't take the "type of car file" "Lola BT-2/50.hdc". It works with the MMG F1. I get an error about a null.eng file missing.
Does anyone know how to make it work?