1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Time attack - huh? And car setup issues.

Discussion in 'RACE 07 - Official WTCC Game' started by Marian Zelenka, Feb 21, 2012.

  1. Marian Zelenka

    Marian Zelenka
    The downforce is strong with this one. Premium Member

    I'm always confused by those times in time attack mode and it makes me wonder.

    Off course, these laps are done with 1L of fuel, optimal tyre temps/grip and cooling cheating. These times couldn't be possible to achieve in practice mode and qualification. Or sometimes could?

    It's bad when you try to achieve the best possible time, but you actually don't know if SimBin didn't make some patch and changed some values. Then it would be impossible.

    The same with online setups. I download a setup from a guy who posted it here on RD in 2008/2009 and it just doesn't work. It's slower (or I'm slower) about 2s and tyre temps (f.e. FL O-M-I 74-71-77) and pressures are just wrong and when I tweak it and force tyres to works better, suddenly, it works and I have better grip in corners. Some cars never work.

    When I practice before online races, I always look for time attack times and take it as a reference. But I never know how close should I get because it's impossible in practice mode. This is something I hate on Race07 and online races on addon tracks. Give me an engineer please...
     
  2. Time Attack is only good for learning the track and to spot ultimate braking points, possibly for initial setup but not for anything else. Practice is much better for honing setups since it has nearly identical grip to race conditions. Online things are different: Practice1 uses lower grips and is suitable for recon laps and initial setup, practice2 has almost race grip so it's the main practice session. Qualy may have slightly better grip than race, some say it has better grip but i've yet failed to see the difference. I'm not qualy driver, i make my fastest laps in race anyway so i can't really tell.

    2008/09 setups needs a bit adjustments for tires, the current tire modelling is better than it was before. It's much more predictable now, simulates real life conditions better and driving style has real influence in tire conditions. It was a hit&miss before and setup trumped driving style. As a result, i feel that there are more grip in optimal temperatures and driving has more effect. Before the patch it was almost impossible to lower tire temps with 1 second slower laptimes, now it takes half a lap.
     
  3. Simply look for hotlaps that require practice or race mode. For example at Nogripracing they have a hotlap section that only allows times that are achieved in practice or race mode.
    Setups are a very personal thing, i also downloaded some fast setups that are undriveable for my style of driving...
     
  4. Marian Zelenka

    Marian Zelenka
    The downforce is strong with this one. Premium Member

    So basically, it's usless to punish yourself in time attack mode when there were some patches? Personally, I gave up craving for time attack records long ago, but at least I can somewhat estimate my desired qualification lap. I do drive in practice mode because setup tweaking.

    What puzzles me is why some cars have wrong tyre temps, or better, why they work better with wrong tyre temps. When I tweak OMI temps, pressures are camber, some cars are slower. Or at least, I'm slower and it doesn't work for me.

    And I'm not very satisfied with Race07 physics also. It seems to me like sometimes guys push too much and it works because the physics tolerates you too much. It feels like there is still some kind of stability help. If you have tried netKar pro for example, you know what I mean. I know what slip angle is, but drifting on slicks is no no.

    It reminds me all that confusion about iRacing tyre model. The old tyre model on Mazda was just wrong. I had to laugh because I couldn't induce understeer while braking and turning. It just wanted to turn more the more you turned the steering wheel. I stopped playing it and when I returned two months later they changed that tyre model. Suddenly, it felt different and better. And off course, lots of guys were confused because their driving style didn't work anymore.

    I understand that Race07 is good for writte off when rFactor 2, GTR3 or Project CARS are out. It just frustrates me at times. But the good thing is there are still guys here who play it.
     
  5. Ariciuc Razvan

    Ariciuc Razvan
    Premium Member

    I've meet the same demons Marian.
    Setups that seem wrong but i go faster with them and time attacks faster but 1-2 than my q times.

    1) I use time attack to learn the track a bit and if i have trouble i just download the fastest time and look at the racing lines a bit, then when i get to a "wall"- can't beat a time and always by just 0.1-0.2s I go practice.( so time attack is just an easy way to learn the track for me).
    2) Setups- still haven't figured them out ... read a bunch of setup guides and articles on the internet and so on, somtimes i mannage to improve my time (with default setup) by using a custom made one.. sometimes i spend 2-3-4 hours and end up with a setup that i think is better but i'm clearly slower. So i've give up the race for the ultimate setup. For now i concentrate on a setup that won't kill the tires and is forgiving (stable) rather then a hot-lap one, i think of it like this :
    fast setup you gain 1-2 seconds per lap... but if you spin (cuz in general it's unstable and on the edge you loose 5-10s ... so that means that if i drive my best in 10 laps and spin in the 11 i've just killed my whole work.
    Stable setup handles better bumps from other drivers, better on tire wear and give you more confidence when making a move.

    On a final note... it's a simulation and it's bound to have buggs and places where it can be improved places where it "cheats" reality,but the good thing is that their gonna get better.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Marian Zelenka

    Marian Zelenka
    The downforce is strong with this one. Premium Member

    Funny how I was confused in my first Mini race at Okayama. I managed 8th position with luck and was lap down. Then the next event at Oschersleben, I downloaded a setup, tweaked it and bang, I was fast. Almost 2nd but spun in the last lap when lapped guy made a mistake and we both spun. Finished 4th, but what a good feeling when it all works. I know I can be reasonably fast, but struggling with car setups.
     
  7. Good post Ariciuc. I use the same tactic, using Time attack to learn a new track fast. As for setups, i started from default, then have studied each parameter one by one over 2 years and the result was: my setups went from bad to worse. Until i started from the beginning, using only default setups. Then i was fast again.. Now i need to only adjust steering lock and sometimes fast suspension settings and differential lock (steering lock up and susp&diff a tad softer..).

    The default setups are actually pretty good and mostly just need adjustments to fit to what ever equipment you got (wheel and pedals..) and some for driving style. It's very rare that a setup will work if it has all parameters tweaked to extremes. I have a rule of thumb: the farther the setup is from default, the worse it is. There is no magical setup that will make anyone lightning fast, most fast guys will drive happily with default setups and still enjoy the experience without losing a lot of speed. Well, apart from some individual mods, some has just awful defaults.. I advise to use default SimBin content when studying stuff and pick only one car that you use. Try them all with default setups and the one that fits your style the best is the one to use, laptime is irrelevant.

    One should not look at the laptimes, it's really not important. Consistency is the key and that can be achieved only when you're feeling safe and confident. I try to drive within one second of my limit because that style gets me to the finishline. Shorter and not-so-serious races can be done with higher risk but longer, +40min races it's just not possible to keep avoiding the inevitable.
     
  8. Marian Zelenka

    Marian Zelenka
    The downforce is strong with this one. Premium Member

    Default setups almost never work for me. But I always start with default setup and try to reach my maximum. When I know that I can't be any faster, I'm looking for online setups or trying to mess with it. And I'm often faster, even 2s faster. Default setups don't suit my driving style, but what my driving style is and what I need to tweak in setup is beyond me. I'm still not sure. :)

    Yes, consistency is good, but it won't help you when you finish 18th. :D

    Right now, I'm struggling with V8 Supercar which is a new car to me and loosing 3s on Hungaroring which seems like eternity. I feel like an enduro racer because I have an aversion to punishing tyres. I'm really looking forward to new generation of sims. One wrong braking and you have flatspotted tyre.

    But back in topic. I use Motec and XD and have no clue how should I set camber, tyre pressures and anti-roll bar. I'd like to see contact patches of every tyre.
     
  9. Ariciuc Razvan

    Ariciuc Razvan
    Premium Member

    Camber and presssure is easy:

    Rule: Tire temperatures (I-M-O) must be as close to equal as possible, 2-5 degress less is considered good(I-M-O) I always the hotest, right as you exit the corner which puts the most pressure on that specific tire.
    It's done one tire at a time (because changes on one tire affect the other ones) and over and over until it's right, after you did 2-3 laps to warm the tires up each time, straight line readings aren't accurate

    To do this look at
    I temperature (that's your reference point).

    very hot I means you're probably too agressive, but this will decrease anyway when you change camber,pressure.

    camber = O tire temperature. if you want to increase O temperature - decresee camber (Ex: -3.5 decreased to -2.0).
    pressure= M tire temperature. so if you want to increase M temperature - increase tire preassure

    Temperatures should look like this (after you exit the corner which puts the most strain on the specific tire you're setting up)
    I-87 M-[87-84] O-[87-82].
    From my attemps it mainly looks like this, right after corner exit I-90 M-90 O-88
    General rule of the tumb is that the diference betwen:
    1) I and O shouldn't be more than 5 degrees appart.
    2)M should be betwen I and O temperature.
    3)Outer must never be higher than I.

    Middle can be a bit higher than I, when not after corner exit(mostly on the straight i saw this).
    Temperatures vary betwen cars and class ofc, and break bias an some other factors (donno whats the optimal tire temperature for the specific cars but WTCC,STCC seem to be around 90 max 100 degrees, hotter tires don't mean more grip they have an sweat spot more or less temperature than that spot is less grip).

    From what i saw, (+/-) 2-3 degrees = 5 KPA (increase/decrease) or 0.5 camber (increase/decrease)

    If this dosen't make you faster it surely will manage wear better.
    This is what the book saies ... but i don't see any big change in times, only in tire wear.

    P.S. arb/bump/rebound/ toe affect temperatures check tires again after you've set these up too.
     
  10. Marian Zelenka

    Marian Zelenka
    The downforce is strong with this one. Premium Member

    Thanks.

    I found these values in Mini .tyr file:

    Temperatures=(90.0,80.0) // Optimum operating temperature for peak forces, cold starting temp (Celsius)
    GripTempPress=(2.25, 0.50, 0.30) // Grip effects of being below temp,above temp, and off-pressure (higher number -> faster grip dropoff)
     
  11. Ariciuc Razvan

    Ariciuc Razvan
    Premium Member

    anyway like it's been said... don't think sims (or me - i won't start tweaking like creazy until i feel there's noting more that i can give to the lap times, and that i'm consisten enough) are accurate enough so that small changes like this matter, my advice is to tweak it , fidle with it to the point where you feel comfortable, chasing lap times is not for me, i'm pretty sure my times will get better the more i learn to drive (and when i'll get a FFB wheel). I'm happy with my time when it's 2-3 s off the record time for that track and specific class.
    Also i've seen lots of fast drivers on club events but it's such a lonely thing.. leading buy 10-15s, way more fun and exciting fighting it out in the pack :)
     
  12. You can let the temperatures to be within 10degrees between inside/outside, it's 5 degrees from in to middle and 5 from middle outside. So instead of trying to get 87 flat my knowledge says 85/90/95 and i'll try to live inside those limits. Flat 87 is just unobtainable and would tell me that there's something wrong with the setup. If you land on those figures, tires are at optimal range but i would increase camber because there is clearly grip left unused. If the whole frontend is too cool, decrease Toe In (= more negative Toe In...). Tire modelling in Race allows more heat in the tires but if they are too cool you lose a lot more grip then. If there's not excessive tire wear hottest point in track can rise up to 98 momentarily, that condition can't be constant thou, then you're exceeding target temperatures. Once per lap 98 if the rest of the lap the hottest is 95.

    82 is simply starting to get too low if that's the highest temperature measured in the outside of tire, that means it can be below optimal everywhere else.. Target is 90 in almost every default SimBin car. Rather 100 than 70... ;)
     
  13. Ariciuc Razvan

    Ariciuc Razvan
    Premium Member

    Equal tire temperatures after croner exit or in corner means that the inner middle and outer tire strips are making contact with the surface in equal amounts. Extra camber does give you more grip but it also increases tire wear very much.. this setup is for race not hot lap.
    And yes 5-10 degress betwen i and o is considered good.
    Temperatures are measured in the corner ,after the corner that puts the most strain on that tire, that's the place that matters, si if it's ok there and then it drops to 80 when you're on the straith or taking corners that don't put strain on that tire that's no problem.And this only after 2-3 warm up laps.
    And yes... tire temps there spike up to near 100 but that's ok as long as it's only in thoes corners.
    Thoes figures were just to show how it should look like, not that 87-82 degrees in an agressive corner is good.
    It's not hard to get equal tire or very near equal in the corner (and only on the tire that's used the most).
    To get equal all the time and on all the tires yes it's impsibruuu

    Tire usage during race:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Marian Zelenka

    Marian Zelenka
    The downforce is strong with this one. Premium Member

    I'm preparing for tonight's Mini race at Monza and no matter what I do, my lap times are still the same. 30L of fuel or 5L, the same lap times.

    Houston, we have a problem.

    [​IMG]

    Looks like 1° of front toe-out doesn't have any negative effect. But it should at least slow me down.
     
  15. Ariciuc Razvan

    Ariciuc Razvan
    Premium Member

    it's about 0.00x s times L of fuel. So 60Lx0.005=0.3s (time lost because of fuel).
     
  16. Marian Zelenka

    Marian Zelenka
    The downforce is strong with this one. Premium Member

    I've just managed to gain 0,5s in qual simulation. I think it's mostly due to more corners cutting. Well, we'll see...
     
  17. Ariciuc Razvan

    Ariciuc Razvan
    Premium Member

    From min 4: Suspension at work and some breaks not likeing the treatment enjoy:
     
  18. Marian Zelenka

    Marian Zelenka
    The downforce is strong with this one. Premium Member

    That car was quick. Too bad it wasn't also safe. :confused:
     
  19. Ariciuc Razvan

    Ariciuc Razvan
    Premium Member

    edit: please dont post fatal crashes
     
  20. Marian Zelenka

    Marian Zelenka
    The downforce is strong with this one. Premium Member

    Is it OK when my RL tyre has temps 72-72-75 or similar in motec? When I lowered camber and got temps like 79-80-82, I was a bit slower and tyre wear was a bit higer.