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Discussion in 'Sim Racing Hardware' started by Brian Clancy, Jan 24, 2011.
This is the place for all your comments and questions on this great series:wink:
Very cool Brian, nice one.
I went to the Autosport show on the 13th and was lucky enougth to have a go in a huge 3 seat motion sim from Cruden, a motion sim co from Germany. The rep told me that they had just built 10 for Ferrari World in Abu Dabi...
Anyway, as you can see (if I can get the stills up...) it was a monster...
So I had one lap of Yas Marina as a passenger then one lap as driver. Nice.
As a passenger it was a very up and down ride, not the best fun but not too bad.
Then it was my turn to drive...
Ferrari 430 I think it was, so off we went. I lost the back end of the car, on accseleration, felt nothing in the wheel, and nothing that told me the back was going either. Ended up in the gravel...
Then off down the track again and ready for the big stop at the bottom. Hit the brakes... nothing, and I am down the escape road... Peddle pressure was ridiculas...
All the time the rig is pitching and rolling, far too much for my liking...
All too soon the lap is over and the machine is coming to a halt.
So, first impressions having thought about it are
1. Brakes need to feel like your car, unless you are just going to put race drivers in who expect to push against a wall (sic) with the brake peddle. I would have thought that this was just software calibration so think, they have missed a trick here. If your going to demo to the public (which they were here) then give em something like the brakes in their car.
2. The motion was too much by a huge ammount I thought. 6 degrees was what they said it was.
3. I did not feel that the motion was very connected to what the car was doing either... but I would hasten to add that this is probably me, with no experiance of this before. Cruden make these things, so I have to beleive that they are right with their software... but it did not feel like it to me!
To be honest, this experiance put me off motion sims... I know its not rearly a good enough sample to make an informed decision.
So as a result I am going to be VERY interested in this thread and all that comes from it.
George, who is waiting with bated breath...
This is an absolutely great idea. I can't wait to read the following parts! I am a bit nervous how this might affect my bank account though...
This is going to be a very cool series But Berney and I want as much feedback from you guys as possible, we dont want to go too in-depth with something like circuit design if nobody wants that kind of info, but if you do................... See what we mean lol.........ask away
Give us a list of the stuff we need please mate, so we can plug in our rigs huh?
Ok, seems like no one else has a question yet, so let me be the first. To get a good feel of the motion with your software, what speed do the cylinders need to travel and what distance? Is the speed determined by the cylinder, the pump or both? What diameter do the cylinders need to be. Can the cylinders be pneumatic, hydraulic, or can/are they worm gear?
For a single seater I would imagine that the cylinders don't need to be that large in diameter due to the limited weight that is being moved, though I would imagine that the cockpit is going to have to be fairly hefty in order to handle the stress of being tossed around like that.
Also, are there specific Heim joints that should be used, or are they all just about the same when it comes to this application and load?
No Question. Started a DIY Rig with Berneys Starter Kit and now I am a happy 2DOF Motion Rig User, and every visitor (many yet and some real motorsport related) were amazed. Like Berney like, say. Better no motion, than bad motion ( or to heavy unrealistic motion)
Right On Ensonic!
These are all good questions. We will definitely cover these types of things in further detail in the article series.
There are varying levels of DIY'ers ranging from those who desire a Plug-N-Play solution to more advanced usrs who want to custom build a simulator, make the calculations, choose an actuator, etc. Your question definitely falls into the range of knowledge required by someone intending to build everything from scratch.
In this case, a DIY motion sim can be whatever you dream up, and can be powered by anything from air cylinders to electric actuators or even air-assisted electro-magnetics should you choose.
You're correct that differing simulator styles will require differing speed and torque from the actuators in order to be effective. Before you can choose an actuator, you'll first need to decide what type of simulator you want to build and how much mass the actuators will have to move.
Seat mover style simulators (obviously my personal preference) require 150mm/sec - 350mm/sec to be able to accurately create the common motion cues IMHO.
The actuators that we use on this style of simulator have a top speed of 400mm/sec and 10.2Kgf while maintaining the ability to produce small vibratory / road surface effects via smalll steps and the capability to make rapid direction changes.
I'll do my best to cover as much of this as possible in the upcoming articles without boring everyone to death
I want to know everything :wink:
What different options are there (from Plug-n-play to DIY)?
What weights can different solutions handle?
I guess a lot of us racers already have racing rigs of different kinds. An article discussing modding of existing rigs (Obuttos, Playseats, Rennsports, etc.) would be interesting. I have an Obutto myself, so I would be interested in the options to motion-enable that
I would like to see a discussion of what different DOFs do to the immersion.
Are there different requirements if you want to do simracing than if you do flight-sim (DOF, speed of actuators, ...)
As I said, I want to know it all so bring it on! :thumbup:
I am sure that modding an existing system is going to take some serious work as the cockpits you are talking about are not designed to handle the torque that will potentially be put on them from being moved around like the motion sims will be doing. Even building a new base for the cockpit to sit on will require that you redesign some segments of your existing cockpit to allow it to stay together without breakage. For this reason alone I would consider getting/building from the ground up with motion in mind. Also, modding your existing rig would necessarily increase the weight to where you would likely need to use heavier duty actuators which could potentially increase the cost of the rig quite a bit.
If I am wrong, I am sure those in the know will correct me, but pretty sure I am spot on.
+1 There Freand!
Berney, whats the plug and play options then please?
Please get writing we are impatient...!
Steady George old boy... give the fellow half a chance, theres a good chap:tongue:
Sorry Brian... calm down George...calm down....
lol i see George is probably going to be one of Berney`s first customers as he seems very keen on getting started on a motion rig!!
Mind you, who wouldn`t be?
Like it was said before, most cost price people have in mind when thinking about motion cockpits are stupidly high, where as these seem like they are a hell of a lot more attainable.
I like it!!
Doubt the missus would let me get one though...... i might have to build a shed in the garden as a race room!!
I'm very glad to see this thread starting up at RD. I've built my own motion DIY motion platform from scratch and currently own one of Berney's Stage IV motion platforms. I have learned a lot from Berney and othes in the motion sim community over the past year and I hope that I will be able to contribute to this thread and answer any questions that I can
Initially I converted to a 2DOF motion platform by using parts from my Playsteat (seat and front end pedal and steering mount). I did not like the pedal position and lack of steering adjustability so I eventually built a new front end for the rig. The entire rig was built out of 80/20 aluminum profiles and I ended up being able to source all of the parts locally.
Along the way I also added a triple screen setup and 4th touch screen monitor, CST pedals and a custom F1 wheel as I wanted to have the best experience possible.
I was intrigued by the SimXperience Stage IV design and really wanted to experience the rear traction loss function so I decided to take the plunge and go with one of Berney's platforms.
The construction of the platform is second to none and extremely solid. One key thing that made a difference was that the SimXperience platform is made of heavy guage steel and there is no flexing under load as there is when using 80/20 aluminum profiles which is the material of choice in the DIY sim comunity for 2DOF seat movers. Aluminum profiles does provide a lot of flexibility when you are not certain of the final design because it is easy to make adjustments but it is not as strong or as ridgid as using steel.
I won't get into too much detail about the platform since Berney will be taking you through his designs step by step but I have first hand experience with a few different sim designs and will be glad to assist in answering questions where I can.
I have attached a picture of my setup as well as a link to a Youtube video of a friend trying it out.
Plug-N-Play DIY Racing Simulator Parts
At a minimum, you would need the following in generic terms assuming that you already have a PC, Sim Wheel, Shifter, Pedals and a Racing Seat of some sort:
-Software to extract physics data from games
-Actuators to move your seat
-Interface between the PC and the actuators
-Motion Seat Base to connect the actuators to the seat and provide dampening
In the SimXperience product line, this translates to the following:
-150mm Motion Starter Kit (All necessary software, cables and actuators)
-Motion Seat Base (Basic frame / Actuator Mounting and Dampening Kit)
In all, it takes a few hours to assemble everything and get up and running if you can turn a wrench, have some basic PC skills, and already know how to install / configure PC based simulation games.
The path I mentioned above is what we would call a Stage I Racing Simulator. This path allows you to continue upgrading as you desire to our Stage II, III or IV modules by simply bolting on additional parts.
This is the simplest way to cost effectively (I realize that "cost effective" is a relative term) get started with a professional level of motion.
If you want to do something a bit more custom, but still on the Plug-N-Play path, you could opt for the motion starter kit along with a Universal Motion Seat Kit instead of our seat base. This does not provide an upgrade path to our other Stages, but does allow you the flexibility to bolt professional motion to any flat surface. This means that you can build whatever you dream up from whatever material you choose and put motion in it. Many folks have come up with some creative uses for this option. I've seen them mounted in everything from actual vehicles (in the winter time of course to fully customized cockpits.
To the best of my knowledge, these are the only truly Plug-N-Play options available at the moment.
As we get into the article series, we can explore the other options that will require more technical knowledge and construction effort.
Thanks Berney, Very interesting indeed.
I am looking forward to the articles unfoulding.
Pretty reasonable prices too Berney.
Cool Bananas Dude!
Glad your enjoying this so far I think this is an area that badly needed covering and should be a really exciting addition to the forum. I hope this section will grow and we can add much more than just this series!
Thank you for your input, Jim!
Now I have looked through the videos and the products that SimXperience provides and I think that it maybe could be possible to mod the Obutto rig to get it moving (I do not know anything about the other rigs). The OButto have a modular design where it is easy to separate the front frame (with the monitor and wheel stand) from the seat-frame. The seat is also easy detachable from the back-frame.
Of course, you could not just plug the SimXperience in, so some work is definitely necessary.
I also found a video on youtube where someone had done that kind of mod. (search for "My DIY Motion Simulator", the user uploaded the video is INDYDANIPPER). He is using SimXperience products. Unfortunately, you can not see any details on the video. Maybe Berney knows anything about this build?
I'm going to investigate this further when digging in to the following articles, so I will get back to you with some ideas for you to comment on.
One other thing that I would like to see a discussion of is the difference in feel (an other pros and cons) between these kind of rigs that "only" moves the seat, compared to the ones that moves everything (seat, pedals, wheel, monitors).
They are obviously much more expensive, but besides that point, what are the other differences?