Razer Kraken X Lite Head phones..7.1 surround?

[graham123]

Am about to buy these at a very good price..but 7.1 surround sound is software driven.
has anyone tried it and is it any good for sim racing??

 

[ColinMac]

You can turn off the software 7.1 and purchase dolby Atmos (from the MS store) or use the 7.1 as supplied by Razer.

Either way, in games the results are usually good.

If they're cheap - get em.

 

[graham123]

they're on the way!!

 

[BrightCandle]

I have tried almost everything in the surround sound world, even developing my own solution for getting custom head-related transform functions. There are a few primary vendors from a gaming perspective, Realtek, Dolby Headphone, DTS headphone, Creative, Razor and Sennheiser. Most 7.1 headphone combinations are based on Dolby headphone and its bad. Razor's software is worse. Realtek sound cards (most motherboards have this) come with surround capabilities and its also pretty bad. I haven't tried DTS headphone but a couple of my gamer friends have them and have no positional awareness in Arma 3 so my guess is it doesn't work or they have it configured wrong. I am not sure if DTS headphone requires a DTS signal from the game, in the Windows software, it does so I am guessing that is how it works so it's basically useless as very few games utilise it.

Which leaves Creative and Sennheiser. I have used Creative SBX and CMSS for many years and its positional accuracy is good, but it sounds tinny, you can get cards and headphones and dacs/amps all based on the technology. Creative has a new solution out and it uses measurements of the ear to customise the sound for your ear shape and most people who have used it say its very good but still a little tinny. Sennhesier has a few headphones but mostly it's about their GSX DAC/Amplifier and this is the best solution I have tried (since Aureal A3D was discontinued anyway). It has positional information as good as Creative but without the obvious loss of bass. They aren't cheap but they are about the best 7.1 you can find currently.

 

[jamescarruthers]

@BrightCandle — can you link to your recommended headphones?

 

[BrightCandle]

@BrightCandle — can you link to your recommended headphones?

DAC/AMP to do the 7.1 is Sennheiser GSX 1000.

Sennheiser GSX 1000 Gaming Audio Amplifier, 7.1 Surround Sound, Gaming DAC & EQ, for PC, Windows, Mac, Laptops and Desktops: Amazon.co.uk: Computers & Accessories

Shop for Sennheiser PC products at the Amazon.co.uk Computers & Accessories store.

www.amazon.co.uk

Headphones wise whatever you like. I happen to use Sennheiser HD 598s but you could utilise whatever headphones you like, the Massdrop 6XX's are great for this and fantastic for the price. You want something slightly bright for positional audio so Bose are bad but Beyerdynamics and much of Sennheiser both good for this purpose.

 

[maelstrom]

Doesn’t 7.1 sound rely on the source (the game) producing it in this format?

 

[Swancoat]

I've never understood how you could have surround sound via headphones (outside of position sensing like VR).

 

[Mr Latte]

Have looked and tried several options over the years.
Heres my thoughts from experiences....

Most of the gaming branded stuff is rather tacky plastic quality with little comfort for longterm usage as well as being a bit overhyped. Some previous options used multi-drivers within the headphones while things have moved more towards specific DSP to create sound fields with traditional headphones.

The two leaders (no surprise) as rival formats are "Dolby Atmos 7.1 for headphones" or "DTS X" both can generate surround placement effects with normal stereo headphones. You just install the software.



How well these (Dolby Vs DTS) works depends on the headphones used and the user's preferences but it can with some games place you more in the action and certainly isn't a bad option to have over the traditional stereo experience.

Not convinced the Sennheiser GSX1000 is worth that money (based on some opinions) or that it would be much better than software options but again it's hard to get in-depth discussions or comparisons on these types of things from actual owners having spent the money on them (not from sponsored YT videos telling you how good $uch is).

As for whats, the best wireless surround headphone experience I have ever had?
For me, it was these below and why I still have them. Now in fairness, they ain't cheap and were originally aimed at the quality/conscious home cinema buff types. Thus offering high-quality audio with superb comfort and upto 9.1 (worlds first at launch) but coming in at £450 few people as you'd imagine bought them.

Sonys own history with virtual surround (VPT) in headphones goes back over two decades.
See here for those asking how such things work or more general information with them releasing products since 1998.


Sony MDR-HW700DS

Trusted Reviews

 

[Insert Coin]

I've never understood how you could have surround sound via headphones (outside of position sensing like VR).

It is possible with just two speakers as you 'only' have two ears. It's explained here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-related_transfer_function#

 

[Mr Latte]

Recommend people try the DTS sound unbound demos to discover how it works with normal headphones for themselves.

Here is an interesting video too but much of this I think is down to personal preferences and the headphones you use.

 

[Insert Coin]

Maybe it's just me, but all HRTF solutions I have tried (many...) have the same problem: sounds which should sound in front of me sound above my head.

 

[Swancoat]

It is possible with just two speakers as you 'only' have two ears. It's explained here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-related_transfer_function#

Hmmm. I don't really have the math chops to call bs on that, so I guess I'll have to accept it .

I guess then there's just the (much smaller) issue that surround sound generated by headphones is directionally pinned to your head (rather than the screen). So if you turn your head, the entire sound field moves. Probably not too big of an issue, since you don't really whip your head around that much when you're driving. Neat stuff anyway.

 

[Mr Latte]

Maybe it's just me, but all HRTF solutions I have tried (many...) have the same problem: sounds which should sound in front of me sound above my head.

This is one thing Sony improved on moving from 5.1 up to 9.1 inclusion for more height presence but I can see them using this type of technology with PS5 and from game design or game engines like unreal 5 helping to push audio in games further. It can work best when the visuals let the user's brain relate also what they are seeing to what they are hearing, this will further be enhanced with the new PS5 haptics in the controller.

This info while quite old gives you some idea on the issues with head-related transfer function (HRTF) and how Sony developed it further and was one of the first pioneers for surround based audio with headphones.

 

[Mr Latte]

PS5 3D Pulse Audio
"Sony says that the PS5 uses object-based spatial sound technology to create some of the most advanced 3D audio available. It's an expansion of the technology used in the PSVR virtual reality headset, which is capable of replicating 50 sound sources. The PS5 bumps that to hundreds of intricate sounds – and in better quality, too.

All of which means that PS5 game developers can design scenes around audio as well as visuals, sonically painting a 3D canvas dripping with detailed acoustics that supercharge the action."

Games Radar Preview

How good will the PS5 Pulse 3D headset and its audio be?

Among the array of PS5 peripherals unveiled last month, it's the PS5 Pulse 3D headset which caught my eye the most

www.gamesradar.com

 

[Neilski]

Hmmm. I don't really have the math chops to call bs on that, so I guess I'll have to accept it .

Yeah, it's not trivially understood but like @Insert Coin says, you only have two ears and yet you can localise sounds pretty accurately (when not wearing headphones! ), so you can understand intuitively that it's not a totally crazy concept for two sources to somehow trick the two ears into perceiving a 3D audio field.
If you have ever listened to a pure sine wave (i.e. a single frequency), you'll probably have immediately realised that you can't really localise it. This is a clue to the fact that the brain uses a combination of time delay between the ears, intensity variation, and the variation of both of those effects with frequency. (If I didn't stuff up the explanation that is!)

I guess then there's just the (much smaller) issue that surround sound generated by headphones is directionally pinned to your head (rather than the screen). So if you turn your head, the entire sound field moves. Probably not too big of an issue, since you don't really whip your head around that much when you're driving. Neat stuff anyway.

True enough.

 

[Swancoat]

Well, I always thought that very slight movement of your head is what helped your ears locate sound in 3d space in real life. i.e. it's straightforward to understand that the differences in arrival time of the sound could accurately place the sound, but kind of in a circle of points all equidistant from each ear as the true location, but then the slightest movement of the head (and another sample) would be enough to effectively locate the sound to just one location - and that was the difference between 'having two ears' and 'having two speakers'.

Learning a lot about how little I actually know I guess.

 

[BrightCandle]

The main reason these effects don't work for everyone is that we all have a different ear (and shoulder shapes) and have a differing response to the various frequencies. There is a wildly accepted average range that works for most people but if you get shifts to above your head then its probably something about your personal ear shape. This is where the new Creative solution might actually work better because they go off of the pictures of your ear. The problem is I don't think anyone that has had prior issues with virtual surround sound has actually tested it and confirmed that it solves their issue and reviews of it are quite similar to SBX Pro in a lot of cases.

Even then the head-related transform function (HRTF) for you also interacts with your expectations of the room you are in, known as the HRIR. If we don't put the sound into an expected environment then it will also sound exceptionally unnatural too especially since the way its working is placing virtual speakers.

Back in the olden days of Windows XP we had surround sound systems that weren't based on virtual speakers, they could thus utilise height as well as the position and they worked a lot better than the modern solutions as a result. Almost all games do support the existing 5.1/7.1 Windows format and can output to a virtual surround sound but the fidelity is lower than something like Aureal 3D back in the early 2000s and it lacks height information. In addition, DTS Headphone X is very unclear about how it works and doesn't take 7.1 in from games and when I tested it I had issues in anything but DTS supporting games, it isn't getting into Direct X to do this so its middleware working around the Windows DirectX output. DTS headphone is potentially the most promising future solution because its object-based sound just like the old Aureal 3D system was, so it has height as well as lots of position data. Alas, it requires that games output in object position>sound format and very few support that currently. Dolby Headphone as I said is pretty bad.

The entire industry is a bit of a mess, the Sennheiser GSX 1000 is the best 7.1 solution I know of but there is also cheap software (Spatial Sound Card) you can get that does a decent job with your existing kit as well.

 

[Neilski]

Well, I always thought that very slight movement of your head is what helped your ears locate sound in 3d space in real life.

Yeah, not an unreasonable guess. For many years, I also kinda assumed that the whole "surround sound headphones" thing was just nonsense, and so I never really looked into it. If I'd been an avid (multiplayer) FPS player then I might have felt differently of course but my Doom/Quake/etc. sessions have generally been in SP mode so no huge need to work out where sounds are coming from

Even then the head-related transform function (HRTF) for you also interacts with your expectations of the room you are in, known as the HRIR. If we don't put the sound into an expected environment then it will also sound exceptionally unnatural too especially since the way its working is placing virtual speakers.

That seems like it ought to be true, but you must mean something different than HRIR for the room bit (because the HRIR carries basically the same information as the HRTF, barring a Fourier transform).

The entire industry is a bit of a mess, the Sennheiser GSX 1000 is the best 7.1 solution I know of but there is also cheap software (Spatial Sound Card) you can get that does a decent job with your existing kit as well.

Yeah, weird that things haven't become more rather than less reliable, but maybe indeed the approaches that model the true ear shape will sort it all out. After watching the HRTF-comparison video above (and a few others), YT decided to offer me a video from Linus (see below), which basically wasn't very positive about the products on the market It's from Feb 2019, so reasonably recent.

 

[Mr Latte]

I find these as very good headphones in comfort and sound quality and can wear them for hours with no warming/sweating. They sound great with the DTSX in spacious mode and can be selected as one of the 500 supported headphones presets.

IIRC games and soundcard should not be set to 7.1 but to stereo and then you enable "DTS Headphone X" spatial audio on your soundcard device via windows and run the app.

Here is a recent article on DTSX
Here is another perspective from Hexus

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