Racing platform for Season 10

[Kennett Ylitalo]

I'll comment from the sidelines (and its not completely out of question that i could return but best i don't make any promises yet in either directions..).

Wheel needs few setting tweaks for F3000. The parameters that need tweaking are
FFB steer force exponent and FFB steer force grip weight. The first one is overall sensitivity (FFB curve) and most likely have to be ramped up a bit to get rid of that soft feeling around center compared to MMG. The latter is how much grip is transmitted to FFB and how much the actual steering column movements (body transfer mainly) is used. MMG has wonderfully FFB setup so getting the same can take.. well, maybe a 2h max actually, the changes are not huge, most likely in +/-0.2

 

[David Turnbull]

or 3 minutes as it took me, i lowered steering force by 2 and upped overall ffb by 2 and its fine lol

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

That'll do it too

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

My point about "closer competition with more overtakings" is based on my experience on public and Presto servers with both cars, and on a quick look at historical PrestoGP qualifying results.

Your experience you know best, but your last point (historical qualifying results) is a result of us being many more drivers at that time (40-50), so the faster dudes were in one division, and the slower in another. If you compare Vale58's (Valerio) times in div 2 with the best guys in div 1 you'll get a more representativ picture of distance from front to rear of grid. Or you can look at difference between me and pole throughout all 9 seasons.

Your comment about that you need more practice with F3000 than with F1 is funny knowing that you have competed three Presto seasons with F3000 before you moved to MMG F1. Shouldn't it come back quickly like bicycling or skating skills?

Considering that I drove f3000 for 3 seasons (to the end of 2009) and f1 for 6 seasons (until today) I would think it is only natural that I would anticipate that returning to f3000 again would involve more practice than staying with the f1 that I am very used to atm. But no doubt, I don't start from scratch if we swap to f3000, and I expect/hope to be "back to normal" within a few races

Remember, I have no hidden agenda with what I say, I am no f3000 or F1 lobbyist

EDIT-PS: It should be mentioned that I am not a natural racing driver, My strength is self-disiplin, iow I practice more than many of my counter-parts to reach the same level. For the same reason changing cars will involve more time for me than others.

 

[Reik Major]

ha, ha! Last sentce says it well.

I'm also no F3000 or F1 lobbyist.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

I'll comment from the sidelines (and its not completely out of question that i could return but best i don't make any promises yet in either directions..).

I often feel motivation is relative low at the end of the season, but in the waiting period for a new season it usually grow steadily.

I think it would be fantastic news if you regained enough motivation to joining next season. I'll keep my fingers crossed but no pressure

In general I hope nobody loses motivation or feel less welcome due to disagreements and heated debates. After all, it is at these times we move forward

 

[Sean Greenlaw]

I think through years ive simraced only done a few leagues but none compares to the way people race in PrestoGP i think we all really try and race as fair as we can at all times, why i love it! as is much more like real life f1. This aswell as our growing experience of everyones driving is quite special, i can only recomend to everyone to stick with presto whatever we race ive had season off in past due to work it was sorely missed.

i think if i look back at alll my seasons with presto im same as you Nico i require alot more practise to be at level i regard higher than my own. I always take about 2/3 seasons to be close to fastest times and slightly consistant, I would mostly dnf in the past only really being more consistant last 3 seasons. Ive finshed last 22 races that i started and in top 7 which is pretty good considering how many dnfs ive had in past and is only down to my previous many practise sessions .
I think also its logical the f3000 would as you say obviously require more practise than mmg because even if you kept driving both cars and you were confident in ability with both mmg and f3000 you would still need to practise more to find out what the f3000 does now in our races length, weather, pitstops and scenario of how tires last to etc, however how much more this may be ? is different for everyone.

 

[Dino Paolini]

Hey guys; I think this is the right place to bring this point up,
as I saw following point from Sean in the pre-vote thread:

...I still think Formula RR could have been better choice as its a simbin car, slower and closer to rl f1 speeds...

I remembered a past hotlap competition with the FRR on Nürburgring GP and uploaded it for comparison reasons (note: cutting rules were a bit different there). Sean I'm afraid you are wrong about the slower and closer to f1 part
The reasons are mostly the same as for MMG F1 and all other cars in the game:
You can go more extreme on the setups than you should be able to

Some comparisons for the same track:
Reiks laprecord in the F1'07 is 0.018s slower
real F1 laprecord is ~ 2.3 seconds slower from 2004

 

[Sean Greenlaw]

I see Dino, you probably end up even faster to, slight cuts at chicanes there but overall lap looked like there were a few spots for improvement to. I havent really driven Frr much just had few shots and i thought with more limited setup options and less rpm it may have been closer to modern f1.
Maybe just a similar car to mmg then but when i checked i was simply googling formula rr hotlaps and seen times around 2/3/4 secs slower than our records on Monza/Spa, i suppose if we took RR onboard after a season or so we would most likely be around same times then anyway.

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

FRR has about 120HP more than real F1. Plus it's tire model has more grip, wider grip range and probably can be tweaked via setup to get even more. If anyones interested i can dig up the real values. I think the extra HP comes from us using a lot less wings than casual drivers, for whom it was designed (aero values are more realistic than rest of the model).. You have to remember that it's part of Raceroom concept, last car to come out before R3E (RaceRoomRacingExperience).

 

[Sean Greenlaw]

Nice info Kennet

One thing i thought also worth remembering that the real life lap records are usually from race laps to and alot of the q laps are with fuel, Sato for instance did a 27.6 in q1 2004 and compared to our ultimate laps have unlimited practise and usually set without enough fuel to even make it back to pits lol.
All these do make it actually closer to a rl comparassin than we first think of to even with all the extra things we get advantage of to 1 sec faster than Sato isnt bad gotta love the v10s!

 

[Dino Paolini]

Nice info Kennet

One thing i thought also worth remembering that the real life lap records are usually from race laps to and alot of the q laps are with fuel, Sato for instance did a 27.6 in q1 2004 and compared to our ultimate laps have unlimited practise and usually set without enough fuel to even make it back to pits lol.
All these do make it actually closer to a rl comparassin than we first think of to even with all the extra things we get advantage of to 1 sec faster than Sato isnt bad gotta love the v10s!

I looked at the times for the pole position; q1 was quite a lot faster it seems

But to be fair; even though it's quite close on this track, it is usually 3s+ on most tracks compared to the fastest q-times

If we wouldn't be able to drive with low-downforce settings so often it would be pretty much spot-on to the fast 2007 season though

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

Ok, here we have the Formula RaceRoom/MMG Comparison data:

Engine:
 
Real values(note: this does not include clutch/drivetrain friction  nor engine inertia, ie flywheel effect!):
922Hp@17000
357Nm@15500
610kg
 
What we are told:
850@17500
406@14500
610kg
 
Comparison with MMG/FRR: (First is MMG data then FRR)
 
[COMPOUND]
 
Name="Super Soft Compound"
Front:
DryLatLong=(2.1229385, 2.226961)    // Lateral/longitudinal coefficients in dry weather was 700
WetLatLong=(1.693785, 1.808361)              // Lateral/longitudinal coefficients in wet weather
Radius=0.3226                              // Radius of tire
Width=0.350
 
Name="Slick Compound"
Front:
DryLatLong=(2.300, 2.300)     
WetLatLong=(1.700, 1.700)
Radius=0.320                   
Width=0.262
 
[FRONTWING]
 
FWDragParams=(0.0312, 0.016587, 0.000032)  // Base drag and 1st and 2nd order with setting
FWLiftParams=(-0.1889,-0.014536, 0.000026) // Base lift and 1st and 2nd order with setting
FWLiftHeight=(0.930)                // Effect of current height on lift coefficient
FWLiftSideways=(0.489)          // Dropoff in downforce with yaw (0.0 = none, 1.0 = max)
 
FWDragParams=(-0.0240, 0.00210, 0.0001)
FWLiftParams=(-0.3280, -0.01870, 0.00001)
FWLiftHeight=(0.900)     
FWLiftSideways=(0.20)     
 
[REARWING]
 
RWDragParams=(0.0370, 0.00250, 0.0001)        // base drag and 1st and 2nd order with setting
RWLiftParams=(-0.41920, -0.01190, 0.00001) // base lift and 1st and 2nd order with setting
RWLiftSideways=(0.20)          // dropoff in downforce with yaw (0.0 = none, 1.0 = max)
 
RWDragParams=(0.0580,0.000854,0.000023)
RWLiftParams=(-0.1010,-0.0067749,0.000063)
RWLiftSideways=(0.500)
 
[BODYAERO]
 
BodyDragBase=(0.3680)          // Base drag
BodyDragHeightAvg=(0.356)      // Drag increase with average ride height
BodyDragHeightDiff=(0.886)      // Drag increase with front/rear ride height difference
RadiatorDrag=(0.0022)          // Effect of radiator setting on drag
RadiatorLift=(0.0048)          // Effect of radiator setting on lift
BrakeDuctDrag=(0.00315)        // Effect of brake duct setting on drag
BrakeDuctLift=(0.00686)        // Effect of brake duct setting on lift
 
BodyDragBase=(0.32)
BodyMaxHeight=(0.260)
BodyDragHeightAvg=(0.350)
RadiatorDrag=(0.0080)
RadiatorLift=(0.0090)
BrakeDuctDrag=(0.0060)
BrakeDuctLift=(0.0080)
 
[DIFFUSER]
 
DiffuserBase=(-1.0246, 2.12, 83.74) // Base lift and 1st/2nd order with rear ride height
 
DiffuserBase=(-1.025, 0.6, 14.5)
 
[CONTROLS]
 
SteeringFFBMult=2.75
 
SteeringFFBMult=2.20

Note! there may be some parameters that are missing from FRR. Either they are hardcoded (MMG parameter is then not functional) or they use default values, which are unknown to us.

Base: car not moving, base value. 1st and 2nd order values are used to calculate the effect of.. speed, movement ie wind speed, ground speed etc.

Basically, they have similar horsepowers but drastically different torque maps. MMG is very smooth and FRR is spiky. Aero has less drag and more downforce. Tires are modelled more "realistically" in FRR, it relies on the game engine to do it's work right, MMG uses non-realistic values with less grip but wider tire than what it actually is (you can do tricks like that in virtual world, physical dimensions are not changed, only their effects..). FRR tire grip curve is smoother, wider than MMG but that is compensated some with that wideness.

FFB is weaker in FRR and i think everyone noticed that at first. It's easy as increasing Steering Force. There most likely is a lot of differences between the suspension geometry but it's laborious task to analyze them, i would need to build a complete model and measure stuff that i really don't know enough yet..

 

[Peter Marshall]

So, it IS a full-blown F1 car. I was not aware....

 

[David Turnbull]

i can only describe them as a mix of mmg speed and f3000 handling, they stick to the road much more and arent as twitchy when putting the power right down.

 

[Peter Marshall]

i can only describe them as a mix of mmg speed and f3000 handling, they stick to the road much more and arent as twitchy when putting the power right down.

But I like the twitch J lol - the F3000 has an awesome twitch

 

[David Turnbull]

i only get the twitches at the thought of f3000

will find out tomorrow what their like in a race situation, i think they should be decent though.

 

[Reik Major]

I like with the FRR that hit has much more rear wheel spin when going full throttle at low speeds (compared to MMG). Comparing with real onboard footages it makes sence to me, because you often hear wheel spin when they accellerate out of hairpins.

I also like the way you can manage the rear wheel spin, so you don't risk an immediate spin when having rear wheel spin but you'll loose time when over doing it. This makes sence to me too, because a driver with worn tyres will have more wheel spin and less traction out of slow corners so the driver behind with fresh tyres can out pace him on the straight. I think with the MMG mod, this effect didn't have such an impact like I expect it with FRR (and like I see it in real F1)...

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

It must be the realistic tire dimensions that just works better. There must be a reason why MMG uses tweaked non-realistic values, their suspension symmetry might require it.

 

[Reik Major]

I believe in each technical stuff you say Kennett.