Nigel Mansell vs teammates (surprising)

[bi11y]

Mansell had the best teammates in history, we have to give him that.

World champions

Rosberg, Prost, Hill, Hakkinen, Andretti, Piquet.

Prost had only five world champion teammates

Rosberg, Hill, Senna, Lauda, Mansell.

But Prost beat 'em all. Actually he outscored Senna both 88 and 89. 88 points system was just different. Not saying he was better, Senna was definitely faster but Prost was (imho) the best complete F1 driver in modern history. Unbelievably smart tactician, very few mistakes and had the magic ability to make the car last.

That era was so amazing and competitive. 1985 had seven world champions on the grid.

Yeh super interesting the list of team mates - Mansell didn't have full seasons against half of the WDC drivers that he team mated with...

In terms of Prosts outright speed - how much did he adapt his driving to being as fast as he neeeded while being reliable? He had same or more wins than the world champion in 1981, 1982 1983 and 1984 before eventually getting the title in 1985...

And driving with "enough speed as needed" he was able to score more points than Senna in 1988 and 1989 as team mate as you point out.

We would never know if prime early career Prost might have pushed a bit harder and been closer to Senna's pace - but it's pretty clear that in 1988 they had the same car and he was not as fast as Senna.

Mansell compared to his wdc team mates might not be so consistent in comparison of points scored, qualifying or race pace records or by anecdotal comments...

 

[Antony Snook]

Perhaps then Senna mellowed to inter team rivalry in the early 90's then, because there's a driver interview where both Senna and Mansell sit side by side and Senna claims that Prost is a coward because he wouldn't allow Senna or Mansell in the other car at Williams.
As for Senna being the GOAT... Fangio claimed that Jim Clark was probably the finest naturally talented driver he had ever seen.
And...
Brundle was in a battle for the F3 championship with Senna and both were looking to go up to F1, how close is Brundle to being the GOAT... without a Championship or even an F1 win, but he nearly had Senna in the lower catergory

I never said Bundle or Blundell were a goat's. They where good driver's but not a contender's for a championship. They where the ultimate #2 who could get the points and help a lead driver. As for Jim Clark i know little about him, before my time. Though i have read about drivers from the 50's and 60's i know little about him. The cars he drove where more physical to drive. Pre electronics eara. Prost was the #1 driver at McLaren and Senna was a rookie who just out drove him and moved the team support into his favor. Senna like Max Verstappen played hard and dirty. And Prost did not like racing in light rain. They had different ways of driving the car from Prost and his smooth stile and Senna's aggressive stile so having both on the team made scence because each track would work with Senna or Prost. The problem was they pulled each other of the track, This looks bad on the team and is why equal drivers don't work you have to get the drivers to respect each other for the team.

 

[Antony Snook]

Mansell had the best teammates in history, we have to give him that.

World champions

Rosberg, Prost, Hill, Hakkinen, Andretti, Piquet.

Prost had only five world champion teammates

Rosberg, Hill, Senna, Lauda, Mansell.

But Prost beat 'em all. Actually he outscored Senna both 88 and 89. 88 points system was just different. Not saying he was better, Senna was definitely faster but Prost was (imho) the best complete F1 driver in modern history. Unbelievably smart tactician, very few mistakes and had the magic ability to make the car last.

That era was so amazing and competitive. 1985 had seven world champions on the grid.

Yes i like Prost as a driver but he was dull to watch. In his book he said he finished each race in the slowest time. So that means he blocked cars from overtaking. He looked after car as Mansell and Senna would crunch gears (Shift up early) And damage the cogs. Sennas aggressive all in stile was amazing to watch as it was entertaining.

 

[Antony Snook]

Mansell was right to walk away from that McLaren... the team scored 15 DNF's that season

It was a weird time the cars had a wing in the middle of the rear cowling between the air box and rear tire. Mansell did not like it as it made down force in a weird place. Verry different to the Williams he won the 1992 tittle with.

 

[Apocalypse2112]

Yeh super interesting the list of team mates - Mansell didn't have full seasons against half of the WDC drivers that he team mated with...

In terms of Prosts outright speed - how much did he adapt his driving to being as fast as he neeeded while being reliable? He had same or more wins than the world champion in 1981, 1982 1983 and 1984 before eventually getting the title in 1985...

And driving with "enough speed as needed" he was able to score more points than Senna in 1988 and 1989 as team mate as you point out.

We would never know if prime early career Prost might have pushed a bit harder and been closer to Senna's pace - but it's pretty clear that in 1988 they had the same car and he was not as fast as Senna.

Mansell compared to his wdc team mates might not be so consistent in comparison of points scored, qualifying or race pace records or by anecdotal comments...

Sometimes I feel that way too much emphasis is put on irrelevant things. Like who's the "rain master" and all that. 95% of the races take place in dry. Or who gets the pole, etc.

It's almost like if in football they would just discuss how many dangerous free kick positions they got... or how much bigger their possession numbers were. And then they'd lose the game 0-1. "B-but he made so many beautiful dribbles, they deserved to win."

The only thing that actually matters is how many points the driver has at the end of the season.

You're right he was a bit boring to watch. But you have to understand how Prost drove. Always very conservative at the start of the race, never pushed to the absolute limits. Monza 1990 is a perfect example when he let hothead Alesi go through and picked up the same position 5 minutes later when Alesi spun. He was never a spectacular driver. But he was deadly efficient. A professor.

Senna was faster, more spectacular and Hollywood and media loved his good looks... died young like James Dean, etc.

Prost was never media favorite. Actually they didn't like him that much even in France. When he was driving with Arnoux at Renault everyone in France was rooting for Arnoux. He wasn't Hollywood material, short little shy man.

But when we look at his record objectively and what kind of teammates he beat (actually every single one of them), I think he's the best driver in modern F1 history (along with Senna).

 

[Pete Conway]

I never said Bundle or Blundell were a goat's. They where good driver's but not a contender's for a championship. They where the ultimate #2 who could get the points and help a lead driver. As for Jim Clark i know little about him, before my time. Though i have read about drivers from the 50's and 60's i know little about him. The cars he drove where more physical to drive. Pre electronics eara. Prost was the #1 driver at McLaren and Senna was a rookie who just out drove him and moved the team support into his favor. Senna like Max Verstappen played hard and dirty. And Prost did not like racing in light rain. They had different ways of driving the car from Prost and his smooth stile and Senna's aggressive stile so having both on the team made scence because each track would work with Senna or Prost. The problem was they pulled each other of the track, This looks bad on the team and is why equal drivers don't work you have to get the drivers to respect each other for the team.

My point is that if Senna is the GOAT then Brundle would be close because he was neck and neck with Senna in the more equal F3 cars, however he never even won an F1 race*.

Senna was indeed good but it's possible that being different bought him better results, his aggression was never seen before, 'probably because in the days of old a driver would never risk death like that for himself or his opponents'
Schumacher was again 'different' in that he added a level of fitness far beyond what had been known before, that added to his determination and self belief made him in the eyes of some the GOAT.

I mention Jim Clark because, unlike the drivers of today he never came up through the ranks in Karts with trainers and such like, he simply naturally understood how to drive fast... very fast.

However back to Mansell, he was one of the most determined drivers ever and liked to tell that tale of how difficult it was for the extra appreciation he'd get... a bit like Lewis Hamilton does really after his races, and in their time at Ferrari, Prost took Mansell's chassis (secretly overnight) and Mansell knew it was different and couldn't get it right for himself after, Prost used this in mind games to triumph, and at the end of the season Mansell had had enough of Prost and his games, Ferrari sacked Prost the following year without letting him finish the season, so angry were they with him... I guess you reap what you sow there
Verstappen likes to play it down, so we feel that he's unbeatable and unflappable, unless he gets beaten by his team mate then we get the long face.

*perhaps through bad luck and the accident that made him change his driving style and the teams he drove for after that.

 

[bi11y]

... he let hothead Alesi go through and picked up the same position 5 minutes later when Alesi spun. He was never a spectacular driver. But he was deadly efficient. A professor.

Senna was faster...

The popular rhetoric is that Senna "was faster" just as a matter of fact - and on the merit of the recorded times that is true..

I just make a point that Prost made 5 pole positions in his second season in F1... he wasn't born a professor but he evolved into that - statistical records of times are those recorded, and I don't think he would have held back much, so the rhetoric is probably true enough...

Prost ability to adapt his driving style made him one of the most successful in history and even tho people do respectfully call him the professor - it is sometimes a back handed compliment because they would prefer to fan over a "hollywood" driver - people might not realise how much the ability to become the professor is a greatness beyond the vast majority of highly skilled drivers that make it to F1.

Mansell on topic probably didn't adapt too much over his career, good driver and his career should get relevant kudos for being measured against some great teammates.