New Tactile Hardware 2023 / 2024

[Mr Latte]

New toy arrived today....
I am no expert when it comes to pedals by a long shot but as the videos and reviews say, yes these feel and look excellent. Glad I opted for these now instead of the Simagic P1000.


Sharing My Ideas
At least it can fit, mmmmm.
Needs to be tested for sure. Although the large plates and steel tubing those plates are attached to with the test rig I have used has much more mass than these pedals. So I don't think this may be that bad?



I will consider one on each side, though they will not be wired/ran in series. I want full independent control of each unit/channel. So will apply a reversed phase to avoid any potential bass cancelation. As a configuration it will bring plenty of things to play around with. Like, is their worthwhile potential with doubling effects or when more types of effects are active at once. Does it feel better when applied over two units instead of one, for improved performance?



This is tidier and worth perhaps trying too....
Still an excellent performing unit and one or two of these exciters, combined with an HPR (adapters available) would be something for owners of these pedals to perhaps consider?



My Own Build
I have so many options in tactile hardware I could use.
If the BDS operate well enough when directly mounted to pedals, they could replace in some way the much more expensive TST options.

With direct mounting, effects utilising higher frequencies. That have lower Q should be more realised for wheel-slip, kerbs, and engine sensations with the BDS model than possible with popular budget tactile options some use.

My intention might be to try and invert these, (2 Pedals) but not yet decided.
Actually can't say that I have even seen these inverted yet. I would want to place the Mini Quake (Q1B) at the back of the pedal arms for each pedal. As mentioned this then gives me much more creative freedom in how I make effects operate for the pedals. Also how it would potentially improve things with my own approach of wanting more felt distinction and individual character with different types of effects.

One difference, I would then also install dual full sized Quake (Q10B) and to then combine those with another pair of BDS units for heel/foot plates.


Per Pedal & Foot Plate Example?



It may seem crazy and well yes to some extents it is...

However (for me) this is about being able to cover the lowest/highest bass frequencies we can apply at the highest performance levels.

Keep in mind my own approach, even in the heel/foot plate I do not want to rely on a single units operational performance to be a restriction like seen with most other builds. My own effects will be made to take full advantage of whatever hardware configuration I find works best for my own usage and preferences.

I still have several large BK and TST units that could be used instead or as well.
I do have some plans to use the BK for specific roles one idea is in a way Ive not seen done before. It all will be, a rather interesting/different approach to experiment with pedals...

 

[mycroftlegros]

@mycroftlegros
Thanks for posting the images and showing what you are looking to do.
My own focus is on effects that will maintain compatibility with whatever sims Simhub supports. I think the community will have people that do not mind tinkering at a per car level and do not mind the extra hassle. However I still see a scenario that someone today cannot just take a tried/tested and affordable solution with recommended hardware to then enjoy pre-made effects *(for that hardware).

I see some flaws in the approach of looking to build effects for a general assortment of make/models of units. Some appear to group them into category's regards what frequencies they can or cannot produce. I prefer to narrow it down to discover and determine what units can be best matched and used, then make those the basis of what effects are built on and are recommended to be used.

One method will let the user experience with more accuracy what the intended effects were developed to feel like. While on the other hand, a bunch of people with very different combinations of hardware will likely all feel parts or something, but not necessarily how or what is intended.


Effects Experimentation
As I said while not a musician...
I did experiment with musical intervals too, utilising different ratios of a fundamental frequency. Often I will make an effect with certain frequencies and then try alternatives using 1/3 or 1/5 but I like the application I am currently using with partial octaves and low/high values. This can help multiple exciters on the back of the seat work well in tandem if desired for specific effects.

The musicality approach certainly appears to work well. I also look at frequencies or multiples of frequencies that do not fit in with the partial octaves, as I think, these could be used for certain other effects to help with achieving different characteristics in their feel.

Looking at what you are using currently, you certainly appear to be limited with the frequencies you can properly experience. This is one reason I am more interested in a unit like the BDS but have not yet really dug into all its potential. No question that it brings more power than any of the previous exciters and even in this comparison shines.

At a later time I am going to directly (for my own interest), compare the BDS to all the other budget models of transducers/exciters 1-1. Later this week will see how it feels compared to the Reckhorn as from my understanding that is one of the best budget models in medium sized transducers. Clearly it has more power/wattage capability too.

I believe combined with more capable low bass units (Dayton 300 / BK PRO / BK LFE / BK CON / Q10B I think the BDS model will form an excellent approach to be used on seat/pedals.

I take a more egotistical approach than you do: I'm not trying to make something for all users, just to do the best I can for my own use



You're right, I'm limited in frequency, almost nothing above 80Hz, which poses a problem for engine vibrations.

What frequency range do you use?

"100-150 Hz for gaming and simulation" Reckhorn BS-200i looks great !

 

[mycroftlegros]

New toy arrived today....
I am no expert when it comes to pedals by a long shot but as the videos and reviews say, yes these feel and look excellent. Glad I opted for these now instead of the Simagic P1000.


Sharing My Ideas
At least it can fit, mmmmm.
Needs to be tested for sure. Although the large plates and steel tubing those plates are attached to with the test rig I have used has much more mass than these pedals. So I don't think this may be that bad?



I will consider one on each side, though they will not be wired/ran in series. I want full independent control of each unit/channel. So will apply a reversed phase to avoid any potential bass cancelation. As a configuration it will bring plenty of things to play around with. Like, is their worthwhile potential with doubling effects or when more types of effects are active at once. Does it feel better when applied over two units instead of one, for improved performance?



This is tidier and worth perhaps trying too....
Still an excellent performing unit and one or two of these exciters, combined with an HPR (adapters available) would be something for owners of these pedals to perhaps consider?



My Own Build
I have so many options in tactile hardware I could use.
If the BDS operate well enough when directly mounted to pedals, they could replace in some way the much more expensive TST options.

With direct mounting, effects utilising higher frequencies. That have lower Q should be more realised for wheel-slip, kerbs, and engine sensations with the BDS model than possible with popular budget tactile options some use.

My intention might be to try and invert these, (2 Pedals) but not yet decided.
Actually can't say that I have even seen these inverted yet. I would want to place the Mini Quake (Q1B) at the back of the pedal arms for each pedal. As mentioned this then gives me much more creative freedom in how I make effects operate for the pedals. Also how it would potentially improve things with my own approach of wanting more felt distinction and individual character with different types of effects.

One difference, I would then also install dual full sized Quake (Q10B) and to then combine those with another pair of BDS units for heel/foot plates.


Per Pedal & Foot Plate Example?



It may seem crazy and well yes to some extents it is...

However (for me) this is about being able to cover the lowest/highest bass frequencies we can apply at the highest performance levels.

Keep in mind my own approach, even in the heel/foot plate I do not want to rely on a single units operational performance to be a restriction like seen with most other builds. My own effects will be made to take full advantage of whatever hardware configuration I find works best for my own usage and preferences.

I still have several large BK and TST units that could be used instead or as well.
I do have some plans to use the BK for specific roles one idea is in a way Ive not seen done before. It all will be, a rather interesting/different approach to experiment with pedals...

Congratulations! it was on my short list
I ended up with the simucube active pedal (which isn't great for vibrations, too slow)

 

[Mr Latte]

Congratulations! it was on my short list
I ended up with the simucube active pedal (which isn't great for vibrations, too slow)

At half the price I would have been tempted. Great pedal though in it's abilities to easily suit different cars and user preferences. Tactile/haptics, wise yeah, we can take things a lot further.

 

[Mr Latte]

I take a more egotistical approach than you do: I'm not trying to make something for all users, just to do the best I can for my own use



You're right, I'm limited in frequency, almost nothing above 80Hz, which poses a problem for engine vibrations.

What frequency range do you use?

"100-150 Hz for gaming and simulation" Reckhorn BS-200i looks great !

I just want to find the best budget unit than have people try to mix 2-3 others with perhaps less abilities or performance. It's not just about a solution for others but the EXC are a great entry level unit that can also be implemented into my own build or concept I have with effects

As you seen, some models may have spikes or specific ranges in frequencies they just produce better than others.

This then can vary with different models too. You then have units that won't cope well below 30Hz or 20 Hz or produce little to nothing @10Hz. At the mid-high bass we see the same issue with different units abilities and some start to drop off @60hz or offer little in usable sensation above 80Hz.

The sensations with each of those frequencies cannot be replicated with others. As an example, the BDS produces a lovely sensation @14Hz as part of a deceleration sensation I am working on that can be combined with ABS. Yet how many other budget models will do the same?

If we apply high gains in dB to a unit with say PEQ for specific frequencies it won't produce as well. The benefits will be minimal as the units performance may be restricted and it just not physically capable of offering what some other models can achieve. I'd say that for both low/high bass scenarios.

Depends on the effect or desired sensation what I apply for frequencies.

I will let you know how the BDS performs in its summary that is still to come. I want to compare it to some other units to determine where it fits but I've already bought 8 of them to test later with new effects in seat.

 

[tennenbaum]

HPR has 27 ohm impedance. it can cope with about double the wattage of the DAEX32 or similar pancake style exiters. HPR: 15-20 Wrms continuously , peaks of course higher - though (as with every shaker) mechanical limits (too much piston excursion) may occur already at low wattage with low frequencies. Its lenghty built form indicates a piston with higher Xmax than pancake exiters, thus being more effective in the lower frequency range. The HPR is clearly designed to perform best in the 23- 37 Hz range, where the pancake exiters run out of strength. BUT the HPR only works properly (in this relatively low frequency range) when mounted to a pedal. The HPR behaves sigificantly different (worse) when mounted to anytting else (usually higher damped moved masses). Above 37 Hz the DAEX32 and its many sibblings are in general and anyway stronger and preciser than the HPR (even with their lower watt limits). However, there is no better or worse, the HPR is designed for beeing used at pedals with a good price/benefit ratio, delivering low frequencies that otherwise can only be achieved with Earthquakes or Buttkickers with a higher price tag and suboptimal form factor. In so far, a nice and well thought through product for a very specific purpose. In case you want to use it with your own amp just make sure the amp is capable to provide high enough voltage levels (due to the HPR‘s high impedance.) It‘s no problem to use the HPR for higher frequencies as well (so multi frequency use is of course possible), it just reproduces vibrations signals much less clean than the pancake styte exiters. Whether this is negative or simply irrelevant depends completely on what you wanna do / expect with exiters/shakers in general. Though, if you‘re looking for a realistic ABS pulsing with (close to) realistic strength in the IRL frequency range you need minimum a MQB-1.

 

[Mr Latte]

I did find my 100W Nobsound amp and could re-look at the HPR unit with that come the weekend but......

Personally I do not believe this will alter how the unit generally has a small sweet spot regards what frequencies it works most well with. It may even cause more issues with excursion as you highlighted.

My foot/feet directly feels the units output as does any of the other units compared. They are all being compared identically for fairness, this is not to say that, their will not be variations in peoples pedals or installations but those too, the users pedal/foot gets to feel the direct output from the unit prior to it passing into other connected structures. How the unit also feels in a footplate section may indeed differ, based on various pedals or connected structure factors.


ABS - One Trick Pony?
Using the unit in the proper manner with controller. This made it possible to determine the units "general performance" with the 10-50Hz it officially is listed at supporting. I don't see connecting it with a 100W amp improving these, as I did not feel the need or find it comforting, to always use the unit at max output anyways. How those frequencies will feel however with more wattage via an amp, if people want that to be done, I will do any test asked or try an effect or setting put forward to then tell you how the same feels on these other options looked at here.

What I can tell you is, trying various effects with low frequencies, the HPR cannot produce the same detail as the BDS. It may be down to its piston/punch characteristic in operation. It just felt dead/thud/smack in comparison, it's not just the level of smack/punch that has to be considered but how rich or involving each may feel.

To say it performs best in 23Hz - 37Hz further highlights for me, how limited it is for various effects types or multiple different effects operating at once. Some may vary in what they like, certainly. Although, often, I find different effects, require higher or indeed, also lower usable ranges in frequencies.


Multi Effects Usage = Find A Better Alternative
This is what disappointed me with the unit, as for months people using it with amps, encouraging others to go that route and nobody seemed to be mentioning this aspect at all. My view, (take it or leave it) is that if wanting to use it like a transducer or exciter. If wanting to be applying different frequencies, to effects, it is just not the unit for that and much better is possible.


Dual Role Approach
I do believe the HPR could be combined with an exciter to work in tandem to bring a nice punch but with the improved detail these two different types of units would achieve. This is something I will also be trying....

Had pointed out in a recent photo of the XCITE unit but waiting to see if someone starts selling an HPR adapter for my pedals. This could make a rather nice combo with an HPR and XCITE that performs quite well as an exciter.

Some people, are rating the XCITE unit ahead of previously recommended Dayton exciters, but I have not yet compared it to those yet myself. It is possible, it may be the new better option for a compact 40W exciter to the past favourites.

I found the DAEX32 as an exciter, had more potential in general as a unit that could work with Simhub tone generation but also incorporating game audio based tactile. It is why that became the previous model I opted to promote. It wasn't perfect but things have now changed....


No Better Or Worse??
In fairness to @tennenbaum you are making some comparisons to other units and not the others shown here. The BDS has no problems operating in the 23-37Hz range or even lower...

The thread is not really aimed at covering the DAEX32 or HESF4 which were the two most previously purchased exciters. I would say, from an effects creation or immersion potential. The HDR is easily outperformed by this new BDS unit. It provides better low bass detail and still with satisfying energy. Along with that having a much wider usable frequency range.


Usage Expectations?
For some, having that ABS sensation may be their main goal and with no care or interest in anything else regards effects. Or they may only want 1-2 effects on each pedal. To them maybe the choice is simple or not a factor. Some may want something stronger but as we see from YT reviews the device has caused a positive impact and wow wow wee wow as the must get accessory. Fewer people will have pro level pedals and to most of those owners, the HPR strength will likely not be an issue.

For others they may want a solution that can perform better, yes I said it, as their is no denying.....

One is clearly more capable for vibrational feedback, can be used for more range of effects. Can be applied with a much wider frequency range. Is more controllable and musical and also performs excellently with audio based tactile as well.

So what, some may say, yeah true. It is up to each user if any of that matters but if we are looking at the potential each unit offers., clearly one stands above the others based on my own comparisons thus far.

 

[Mr Latte]

Beyond Previous Exciters!
What the BDS does, is rewrite what an exciter can achieve in performance. Let me give you some examples


Road Rumble / Impacts / Road Vibrations Example:
In a current set of effects I have worked on for the BDS unit. How would these feel on most budget transducers or the HPR?

With "road rumble" using a range of specific frequencies, from 14Hz to 140Hz. Applying 4x simple layers. It delivers a very satisfying response from saw curbs, giving a very nice body/weight response but also with an edgy zing feel, topped off with that audible brr associated with tyres.

I have the "impacts" effect, accompany this, using layers from 3Hz - 28Hz and then "road vibration" using 14Hz - 88Hz with 3x layers.

These combined are pushing the units hard, yet its coping well and its likely that better results would be achieved with separating the RR / RV to different units/channels. Doing so, in the pursuit to retain each elements detail.

Lets be clear.....
I am not saying this large exciter can do what a large BK can do in the energy it generates with low bass. What I am saying, is now we can achieve more in effects creativity with exciters than before.

With this improved dynamic range and general extra strength in output it accomplishes. This unit can offer additional sensations in elements we can feel or put into effects generated characteristics. This on such a small yet also affordable hardware option is new.

So I am keen to see what potential their is with pedals with dual BDS or how with this unit we may be able to improve what is possible with multiple operational effects scenarios.

Furthermore, in my own view....
The improved operational abilities of this unit, it's potential may even be more impactful or better realised, with seat installations using multiple units over the torso and for the specific body areas.

By now, it should come across I am rather impressed with it.....

Will test these exact effects layers on the Reckhorn unit to give me more perception into how the BDS compares to this good performing budget price transducer.

 

[Mr Latte]

I came across this....
Just out of curiosity , I placed an order for a set (3 pedals)
£42 shipped to UK.

Looks nice....
Simagic HPR Adapter for Sim Lab Pedals

 

[blekenbleu]

HPR has 27 ohm impedance. it can cope with about double the wattage of the DAEX32 or similar pancake style exiters. HPR: 15-20 Wrms continuously.

Audio amplifiers rated for 6 Ohm loads
would need to be capable of delivering about 70 Watts
in order to deliver over 15 Watts to HPR's 27 Ohms.

 

[Mr Latte]

Audio amplifiers rated for 6 Ohm loads
would need to be capable of delivering about 70 Watts
in order to deliver over 15 Watts to HPR's 27 Ohms.

Using online calculators....

The NS 20G that supports 4ohm or 8ohm speakers, shipping with 19V PSU should be enough?

I have yet however to see anyone highlight the benefits or how it radically changes the performance limitations or general operation in its character the unit itself has.

So the question remains, if this approach is even worth it in trying to use the unit like a transducer/exciter. My view is, likely not based on what testing I have done this far and comparing to the other units here.

Nobody has their own effects examples they want to share neither it seems for how they use the HPR with an amp.

 

[blekenbleu]

The NS 20G that supports 4ohm or 8ohm speakers, shipping with 19V PSU should be enough?

NS 20G reportedly uses TI TPA3116, with this block diagram:

.. so bridge outputs, capable of peak Voltage nearly that of supply.
AC power = V * V / (2 * R) = 19 * 19 / (2 * 27) < 6.7 Watts per channel
and 13.4 Watts for both channels, provided the supply power rating suffices.

 

[Mr Latte]

Situation At Hand
Is it possible or likely, the majority of people using the HPR already with an amp are doing so with even less capable amplifiers or PSU?

If you want to look at the model Daniel himself showcased using the unit with, that uses only a 12V PSU and I would expect others purchased that as well because it is what he used.

In October when others mentioned this HPR product you commented nothing on what amps/psu should be considered. One user linked the Fosi Audio M03 as what they were using based on TPA3255D2. Yet even in the specs this mentions that the accompanied PSU can not achieve the units max output.

• High Efficient Power Output up to 200Watt. M03 can provide 150 watts RMS into 4-ohm loads or 120watts to 8-ohm loads. (Note: Package comes with 32V/5A power supply, you need a more powerful power supply to get the MAX power output.

Nobsound offer a 24V power supply too that I could used with the NS20G but I do not have that at hand to try with the amp I have here. An alternative could be this with 32V/5A recommended for 160w @ 4ohms.

I'm confused, so asking, where do you want to go with this?

Perhaps, if you want to recommend an amp with other specific chip or suitable PSU then feel free to do that. Or explain to the people following this thread, why/how that would improve this products operation.

Why it would be so much better with such an amp than using the unit in the intended way with fixed frequencies, as it was designed via the haptic controller?

 

[Mr Latte]

Today I have started comparing the BDS to the Reckhorn transducer.
Using it with the NS20G amp...

Will do tests with various effects using different frequencies to help determine not necessarily how good the Reckhorn is, but how much different/better/worse the BDS is to it.

Why the Reckhorn Rodney?

The Reckhorn is well enough known and regarded as a better performing unit that has been around for many many years. Better too, than the similar priced Dayton BST 1 (confirmed in various YT videos by people). Although Dayton models are very popular and why so many people use or believe them to be a good choice.

Of course different units still have their own characteristics and how they handle specific frequencies. So then, how much better will the Reckhorn 100w transducer be with low bass, mid bass and high bass effects to the BDS 40w exciter? It is hardly fair right, as one is much bigger/beefier and with more than 2x the wattage. Yet out of interest and to offer a proper summary of the BDS unit, this is what I want to and feel is important to do.

The Sinustec ST-BS250 appears to look similar and may be available in other regions where the Reckhorn is not. Although, I cannot see any comparisons of it with the Reckhorn or say they are identical. Their also used to be other clones in far-east markets.

 

[blekenbleu]

Is it possible or likely, the majority of people using the HPR already with an amp are doing so with even less capable amplifiers or PSU?

I do not study how others use (or misuse) devices,
but complaints of low HPR output are common
and consistent with inability to drive relatively high impedance
by modest audio amplifiers designed for low impedances.

Simagic evidently did not design HPR for use with audio amplifiers.

 

[tennenbaum]

Blekenbleu put it nicely together. For those wanting to use the HPR anyway due to good reasons and simply applying P=U^2/R to whatever they want to do: Even with an e.g. 19V PSU the HPR is stronger in the 23-37 Hz range than any pancake style Exiter. So, in the range that seems primarily interesting to me for ABS effects*. With a =>32V PSU you can max out the HPR potential. Which is roughly 10-15% of what a MQB-1 can provide. But 10% is still great compared to the alternatives. *Simagic states in some of their YT videos that IRL ABS pulses with 25-50 Hz. AFAIK real ABS systems work actually mainly with 5-12 Hz (which can be simulated quite well to an extend with the MQB-1.) I'm not arguing in favour of the MQB-1 (or HPR over Exiters), it's just an info for people looking for an as-close-to-reality-as-possible ABS effect.

 

[Mr Latte]

I do not study how others use (or misuse) devices,
but complaints of low HPR output are common
and consistent with inability to drive relatively high impedance
by modest audio amplifiers designed for low impedances.

Simagic evidently did not design HPR for use with audio amplifiers.

I believe some complaints of low output were related to Simhub and even with the official controller? Then a patch/update was released?

You and @tennenbaum are the ones wanting to further discuss the HPR usage with an amp. So please continue, and highlight your own user experiences. The fact is people are using it with various amps because others have been recommending to do that or giving perhaps false impressions. From the very beginning of this thread I raised concerns and questions.

Have stated if other tests or using the unit with another amp is necessary or will change the units performance in a way that will alter how usable it is.

I see it best used in its original way and then to accompany it with an exciter and why I purchased the adapter for my pedals to further experiment.

What neither of you have made clear is why if using it even with an amp that is more "technically" capable of fully driving it will accomplish?

In my view it likely wont be much benefit, as the units power output even with the amp I tried was not the main problem.

Am I wrong?

 

[Mr Latte]

Blekenbleu put it nicely together. For those wanting to use the HPR anyway due to good reasons and simply applying P=U^2/R to whatever they want to do: Even with an e.g. 19V PSU the HPR is stronger in the 23-37 Hz range than any pancake style Exiter. So, in the range that seems primarily interesting to me for ABS effects*. With a =>32V PSU you can max out the HPR potential. Which is roughly 10-15% of what a MQB-1 can provide. But 10% is still great compared to the alternatives. *Simagic states in some of their YT videos that IRL ABS pulses with 25-50 Hz. AFAIK real ABS systems work actually mainly with 5-12 Hz (which can be simulated quite well to an extend with the MQB-1.) I'm not arguing in favour of the MQB-1 (or HPR over Exiters), it's just an info for people looking for an as-close-to-reality-as-possible ABS effect.

Thank you....

Okay, so lets add another amp for further comparisons here. I have purchased Douk Audio M1 Pro

"Using classic TDA7498E chip, max output power can reach 160W + 160W, equipped with high-quality 32V/5A power supply enough to drive above 300W passive speakers."

What way do you want it wired/connected? Share exactly how you want it to be used please. I will do my part and spend my own money just in the interest of the goals for this comparison.

I could not find the Fosi 30A available to buy, which seems to be their alternative to this Nobsound model.

When I get the adapter for the pedals, then maybe I can compare the HPR to the BDS and MQB1 units. Do either of you then wish to share effects you want compared or used for testing?

An amp with the MQB1 is not excessively more expensive than an amp with the HPR. Although I do not believe for a large portion of the sim community the MQB1 would be suitable for their own pedals or necessary. Lets not forget that the HPR is so easily attached to lots of budget or mid-range pedals with the availability of adapters.

As expressed, the BDS is quite capable with low frequencies, so I am interested to see with: 5-12Hz & 25-50Hz as you mentioned how that compares to the HPR used in whatever way you recommend it to be used.

You keep making reference to other exciters performance, not relevant here though. Calculations do not represent how each unit will perhaps differ in feel and this is part of my point. The HPR had entirely different feel to the BDS in effects I tested, its not just a power output thing.

Back to you guys.....

 

[mycroftlegros]

@mycroftlegros
Can you share your profil bass-shakers ?
Thanks

Profile will soon be ready to share. Which cars do you want to try? (I have to fill their characteristics in the code)

 

[herve45]

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Rf2 corvette c8 r gte