How to drive front-wheel-driven (wtcc) cars?
- Thread starter RoboCop69
- Start date
I recently read the full version of this article regarding the characteristics and handling of these cars and it's pretty spot on to what most are experiencing ingame.
Extremely difficult to handle and the only thing predictable is its unpredictability lol
Imo they handle very similar to rf2 btcc civic minus the excessive torque steering.
I feel they have done a great job representing these vehicles
http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/Speed-Week-Honda-Civic-BTCC-vs-Seat-Leon-Cup-Car
I recently read the full version of this article regarding the characteristics and handling of these cars and it's pretty spot on to what most are experiencing ingame.
Extremely difficult to handle and the only thing predictable is its unpredictability lol
Imo they handle very similar to rf2 btcc civic minus the excessive torque steering.
I feel they have done a great job representing these vehicles
http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/Speed-Week-Honda-Civic-BTCC-vs-Seat-Leon-Cup-Car
Yes, of course I know that FWD touring cars are more oversteering than their "normal" road going variants. But still this has to be in a level than can be controlled by the driver at any point. And I don't see this covered at this stage of development, unless you drive more careful than fast.
Furthermore that's not the point I was trying to make. I just want to have the setup option that lets me tweak the car the way I like and that surely every real life touring car has too. Even the Race07 touring cars had this option and RRE uses the same physics engine. So where has the caster option gone?
And by the way: whatever the full article you linked says, it doesn't really fit here. Even the small snippet I could read for free contains these sentences:
"You see, one of these behaves as you'd imagine a touring car to behave. The other doesn't."
So obviously these two cars behave differently already. So whatever the behaviour of these two cars is like, it can't give you a clue on how a third car behaves. Especially since BTCC cars, 2013 WTCC FWD cars and the Leon cup racer are completely different under hood while only sharing the FWD-concept in a race car.
BTCC cars for example only share the main cockpit frame with the road car. The complete suspension and the front and rear frame get replaced by something else and get covered into some kind of silhouette bodywork. The 2013 WTCC Honda of course has not-standard suspension parts too but they are all somehow attached to the cars original frame.
And the Leon cup racer has more in common with the new TC1 cars than with the old WTCC cars. But at least it's more based on the road car than a BTCC car. Still any conclusion regarding the behaviour of a 2013 WTCC car would be pure guesswork.
im sorry really have to disagree with you here
the fwd cars are perfect they with practice do everything like they should
only thing is is once in a while they are going to bite you , just occasionally to show you that there is a limit
the game is modulating the car on the throttle , getting the back end to be set up to oversteer and using light and precise hands on the steering;
they are bliss , i love them to bits and they are very close to the real lap times
Andi
the fwd cars are perfect they with practice do everything like they should
only thing is is once in a while they are going to bite you , just occasionally to show you that there is a limit
the game is modulating the car on the throttle , getting the back end to be set up to oversteer and using light and precise hands on the steering;
they are bliss , i love them to bits and they are very close to the real lap times
Andi
I got the same problems when first driving the Honda. (I think it's also the most tailhappy of the wtcc's) But i got used to it quickly, tweaked the setup (standard setup makes the car oversteer even more) and now i can drive very aggressive and the car is still predictable and stable. Too much oversteer when entering a corner mostly happens because you step off the brakes too abrupt.
Try my setup, maybe it can help
Managed to do a 1.50.7 at Hungaro Ring(top ten leaderboard time atm)
Last edited:
I got the same problems when first driving the Honda. (I think it's also the most tailhappy of the wtcc's) But i got used to it quickly, tweaked the setup (standard setup makes the car oversteer even more) and now i can drive very aggressive and the car is still predictable and stable. Too much oversteer when entering a corner mostly happens because you step off the brakes too abrupt.
Try my setup, maybe it can help
(top ten leaderboard time atm)
Huh. I get most of the settings but what's the reasoning for the 70/85ARB setting and the heavy front biased brakes? I would think that kind of a setup would understeer quite a bit, especially around a twisty track like Hungaroring, but my best with the Cruze was a 1:51.8 and that felt like a perfect lap.
The car has so much lift off oversteer so understeer is very welcome. ^_^
Default ARB is 62/92 so i made the front stiffer and the rear softer to get more grip at the back.
The brakes just work for me this way at Hungaro. They never lock up. At Suzuka i have to change brakes to 58:42 because otherwise i get bad oversteer when braking into turn one. Actually the rear is getting light when brake bias is front heavy in my experience, as long as the brakes don't lock of course.
Civic is 1.5 seconds quicker @ Hungaro, best leaderboard time 1.50.3 atm, while best Cruze time is 1.51.8(your time? )
Default ARB is 62/92 so i made the front stiffer and the rear softer to get more grip at the back.
The brakes just work for me this way at Hungaro. They never lock up. At Suzuka i have to change brakes to 58:42 because otherwise i get bad oversteer when braking into turn one. Actually the rear is getting light when brake bias is front heavy in my experience, as long as the brakes don't lock of course.
Civic is 1.5 seconds quicker @ Hungaro, best leaderboard time 1.50.3 atm, while best Cruze time is 1.51.8(your time?
)
Last edited:
Stiffer front-end overall is good for the lift-off oversteer. The cars tend to dive hard on the brakes at default. Also, driver input is way more important than setup.
You basically have to think a lot more about the rotation of the car and at what point it rotates. When racing in real life, i always imagined it as a heavy lump of lead positioned straight on top of the front wheels and none at the back. Makes it easy to picture in your mind what is going to happen at the rear when you steer in at your chosen angle and dive.
In practice there is of course some weight at the back as well, but the point is to understand the need to keep weight down at the back also during turn in. The most effective way, in real life as well as in RRE is trail braking/left foot braking and choosing a "flick" method of steering in. Very hard angle, let the car understeer out.
So, soft rear/stiff front, less roll at rear. Left foot brake hard and go for an acute angle at apex. Release brake gradually and torque steer/scrub out at straighter angle.
My times are still slower in the sim than in real life, but that i attribute to no "butt feedback"
You basically have to think a lot more about the rotation of the car and at what point it rotates. When racing in real life, i always imagined it as a heavy lump of lead positioned straight on top of the front wheels and none at the back. Makes it easy to picture in your mind what is going to happen at the rear when you steer in at your chosen angle and dive.
In practice there is of course some weight at the back as well, but the point is to understand the need to keep weight down at the back also during turn in. The most effective way, in real life as well as in RRE is trail braking/left foot braking and choosing a "flick" method of steering in. Very hard angle, let the car understeer out.
So, soft rear/stiff front, less roll at rear. Left foot brake hard and go for an acute angle at apex. Release brake gradually and torque steer/scrub out at straighter angle.
My times are still slower in the sim than in real life, but that i attribute to no "butt feedback"
Very interesting method. But doesn't that eat up your front tyres in no time?
And you got me curious. What kind of racing do you do in real life that can be compared to a 2013 WTCC car?
Yeah. It eats tires like crazy. Especially on off banked turns, where the neg. deflection causes the wheel to be at a less optimal angle (no neg. camber holding the car pushing inwards).
Which is why many touring car series sees advantages for the rwd cars towards the end of the sprint races, where the fwds have used up their turn in...
In real life i hardly race anymore, due to having a wife and a kid these days. So time is not there. So i sim race more
But when i did frequently race for real i raced Radicals, Formula Ford and group C rallycross mostly. But on the touring side i also did a half season of Clio Cup (then called "Junior Series") on a semi sponsorship and also ran a private entered Mondeo Cosworth at some european meets (EFT series/FIA), including a magic run at the ring (the worlds most amazing track, no contest). Nearly ate all my cash though
Connor Caple
Slowest Racer in Town...
In real life i hardly race anymore, due to having a wife and a kid these days. So time is not there. So i sim race more
... Nearly ate all my cash though
That tends to be why we all stopped, unless we become pros and get a real drive that actually pays wages
When I was single, and even into early marriage before we had too many kids, I used to sink all my spare cash into my 'hobby'. I had to finally give up my track car this summer as the costs just get too high when you're not making enough money any more. Retirement sucks.
The Factory chassis Cruze (my last track car) is much more stable than the WTCC one in R3E. The guy who did the physics said it's supposed to be that way. It never looked like that on the track though at the BTCC/WTCC meets. It always seemed really planted, so I can only assume that the default setup for them in R3E is WAY off
I'm going to have to study the tuning manuals and see if I can figure out what's making it so twitchy. I hate oversteer...
Did I mention that R3E needs Minis yet?
That tends to be why we all stopped, unless we become pros and get a real drive that actually pays wages
When I was single, and even into early marriage before we had too many kids, I used to sink all my spare cash into my 'hobby'. I had to finally give up my track car this summer as the costs just get too high when you're not making enough money any more. Retirement sucks.
The Factory chassis Cruze (my last track car) is much more stable than the WTCC one in R3E. The guy who did the physics said it's supposed to be that way. It never looked like that on the track though at the BTCC/WTCC meets. It always seemed really planted, so I can only assume that the default setup for them in R3E is WAY off
I'm going to have to study the tuning manuals and see if I can figure out what's making it so twitchy. I hate oversteer...
Did I mention that R3E needs Minis yet?
Unfortunately it is a show stopper to most hobby racers, when you get other spenditure and a lot less time. However, one of the perks of having kids is passing on the interest and become a go kart-dad instead
Saves me the trouble racing. Now i can just drink coffee and cheer on from the stands As for the Cruze in RRE, i actually think it seems accurate for being a very stiff race chassis. I find it manageable also on the default setup, but personally i found it works better if i introduce a bit of roll, by lowering the roll resistance... Makes it stick better mid turn. Also, the turn in is rather diffuse on the base setup, so i tend to put more neg. camber up front. The brake bias can be set a bit more at the rear as well, except at Nurbergring with the devilish brake zone on the downhill to turn one, where the weight shift causes the slightest breeze on the brake pedal to send you into a full on skid
Other than that i just run stock settings. My times are reasonable, but could find seconds if i could be bothered
And i want minis too, as long as they are british, proper, imperial sanctioned ones. As in Morris/BMC 60s. I can even throw in some Austin and a Hillman (preferably the Imp) to really get the union jack party going
Just as long as i do not have to see any sign of the "new" ones, or as i refer to them: The rebranded BMW Golf...[QUOTE="Richard Eriksson, post: 1874569, member: 172610"
And i want minis too, as long as they are british, proper, imperial sanctioned ones. As in Morris/BMC 60s. I can even throw in some Austin and a Hillman (preferably the Imp) to really get the union jack party going Just as long as i do not have to see any sign of the "new" ones, or as i refer to them: The rebranded BMW Golf...[/QUOTE]
GT Legends has a 1960`s Mini...
And i want minis too, as long as they are british, proper, imperial sanctioned ones. As in Morris/BMC 60s. I can even throw in some Austin and a Hillman (preferably the Imp) to really get the union jack party going
Just as long as i do not have to see any sign of the "new" ones, or as i refer to them: The rebranded BMW Golf...[/QUOTE]GT Legends has a 1960`s Mini...
This is the most interesting part of the quoted article:
"Corner one: massive rear-end skid - no heat in the rear tyres. Corner two: I do one thing with the steering, but, when I get back on the power, the car chooses a different direction entirely. Corner three: I turn the steering wheel, and nothing much happens. I panic and throw more lock on, at which point the front end bites abruptly and the rear slides again. Corner four, the hairpin: a repeat of corner one. Corner five is a heart-in-mouth fast left-hander onto the back straight."
This too:
"Clearly, there's a lot going on here: the chief culprits being tyre temperature, a hilariously mobile rear end and a front diff that's too clever for its own good. I'm amazed how quickly - and noticeably - heat builds in the tyres, and lap two is a bit calmer. But the harder I go, the more aggressive the rear steering gets and the busier the diff. I have many methods of steering the car, only one of which is the wheel in front of me. That, the diff, the rear end and brakes can be used in any combination you see fit, all at the same time - and I've never been much of a multitasker. Everything affects the car's trajectory; it never seems to take the same corner the same way on any two laps. My brain struggles with the data bombardment."
I don`t know who the driver is; presumably a professional or at least highly skilled, which would lead me to believe that if anything, the handling`s been toned down for the sim
"Corner one: massive rear-end skid - no heat in the rear tyres. Corner two: I do one thing with the steering, but, when I get back on the power, the car chooses a different direction entirely. Corner three: I turn the steering wheel, and nothing much happens. I panic and throw more lock on, at which point the front end bites abruptly and the rear slides again. Corner four, the hairpin: a repeat of corner one. Corner five is a heart-in-mouth fast left-hander onto the back straight."
This too:
"Clearly, there's a lot going on here: the chief culprits being tyre temperature, a hilariously mobile rear end and a front diff that's too clever for its own good. I'm amazed how quickly - and noticeably - heat builds in the tyres, and lap two is a bit calmer. But the harder I go, the more aggressive the rear steering gets and the busier the diff. I have many methods of steering the car, only one of which is the wheel in front of me. That, the diff, the rear end and brakes can be used in any combination you see fit, all at the same time - and I've never been much of a multitasker. Everything affects the car's trajectory; it never seems to take the same corner the same way on any two laps. My brain struggles with the data bombardment."
I don`t know who the driver is; presumably a professional or at least highly skilled, which would lead me to believe that if anything, the handling`s been toned down for the sim
my tencents worth ; its a front wheel drive , so rag it .....
remember that the car is throttle sensitive , so modulate it
my set up , for all of them is stiifen them up make them steer with the back end , and balance them to 4wheel drift ; after that its just setting them up for the corner , adapt your driving style ,its not the same lines as a rearwheel drive , attack the corners differently and make your steering inputs gradual and feed it in both the direction and power ; trail brake and blip and keep the car alive ,
to be fast in the fwd you have to work hard , on the gears on the timing and especially on the throttle so you dont lose speed
and if everything goes wrong ; opposite lock bury the throttle and pray
Andi
remember that the car is throttle sensitive , so modulate it
my set up , for all of them is stiifen them up make them steer with the back end , and balance them to 4wheel drift ; after that its just setting them up for the corner , adapt your driving style ,its not the same lines as a rearwheel drive , attack the corners differently and make your steering inputs gradual and feed it in both the direction and power ; trail brake and blip and keep the car alive ,
to be fast in the fwd you have to work hard , on the gears on the timing and especially on the throttle so you dont lose speed
and if everything goes wrong ; opposite lock bury the throttle and pray
Andi
Connor Caple
Slowest Racer in Town...
I run Andi's WTCC setup online and have learned to drive it. It is quite different to the way I'd drive in real life, but since I'm no engineer I just adapted my driving style to suit his setup.
If you want it, get on the RD TeamSpeak in the RaceroomRacingExperience room and ask Andi. You can see if he's in there in the little widget at the bottom left side of the main Forums page.
If you want it, get on the RD TeamSpeak in the RaceroomRacingExperience room and ask Andi. You can see if he's in there in the little widget at the bottom left side of the main Forums page.
Not to sound completely dumb...what and where is the RD TeamSpeak?
I don't own the WTCC cars in Raceroom (but do own every single WTCC item from Simbin's Race06 to the WTCC 2010 pack), but had a go at the Honda and Cruze on the current competition time trial around Hungaroring.
That Top Gear article is exactly how I was feeling tackling the Honda from cold... Then I dug deep into my memory of those many hours playing Race06/07 FWDs, got smoother, started holding the throttle more mid corner, got more gentle with the pedals, and it all started to come together better. Still depressingly low on the time trial ranking, but it was fun to get back to a proper vicious FWD racer again. R3E's default setups are clearly more oversteery than anything back in the Race07 era.
That Top Gear article is exactly how I was feeling tackling the Honda from cold... Then I dug deep into my memory of those many hours playing Race06/07 FWDs, got smoother, started holding the throttle more mid corner, got more gentle with the pedals, and it all started to come together better. Still depressingly low on the time trial ranking, but it was fun to get back to a proper vicious FWD racer again. R3E's default setups are clearly more oversteery than anything back in the Race07 era.
Connor Caple
Slowest Racer in Town...
It's the Race Department Teamspeak Server where we all voice chat to eachother during races, and just when testing and lapping sometimes.
TeamSpeak setup guide
The Password link is available to Licensed members and is usually found in EVERY Club Racing Event thread. It is also available in the original post in the Rules and Passwords Forum.
I just wanted to say a quick thank you to everyone who posted on this thread with tips on driving the FWD WTCC cars. I was having terrible trouble and could have entered my car in Olympic figure skating with my many graceful spins into the wall...
Anyway, a bit of practice and I'm sooo much better!
Late breaking into Turn 1 at Brands Hatch, getting it a little sideways, quickly but smoothly applying full throttle and I'm away down the hill... Wooohooooooo............
This game is coming a long very nicely.
Anyway, a bit of practice and I'm sooo much better!
Late breaking into Turn 1 at Brands Hatch, getting it a little sideways, quickly but smoothly applying full throttle and I'm away down the hill... Wooohooooooo............
This game is coming a long very nicely.
Latest News
-
Short Oval Racer's First Time Experience With IndyCarFull contact and rough and ready. That's banger racing. However, IndyCar swiftly taught me that...- Connor Minniss
- Updated:
- 5 min read
-
Racing Club Schedule: May 19 - 26The Racing Club goes to Monaco this week - multiple times, and throughout the ages! Indy 500...- Yannik Haustein
- Updated:
- 4 min read
-
Recreating My Motorsport Photos In Sim RacingFrom supertourers, to banger cars - recreating my motorsport photos in my favourite sim racing...
- Connor Minniss
- Updated:
- 5 min read
-
![Luca [OT]](/data/avatars/s/3235/3235113.jpg?1697196734)
Sponsored Battling With The Pros At Racing Unleashed's All-Star EventOur own René Buttler was invited by Racing Unleashed to battle pro sim racers at their racing...- Luca Munro
- Updated:
- 8 min read
-
2024 Formula One Emilia Romagna Grand PrixAfter a somewhat surprisingly intense Miami Grand Prix, Formula One returns to Imola for the...
- Connor Minniss
- Updated:
- 3 min read
-
BMW M4 GT4 To Join RaceRoom GridsAfter the recent announcement of three BMW race cars coming to the sim, RaceRoom unveiled the...
- Yannik Haustein
- Updated:
- 2 min read
-
WATCH: Our Guide To Nordschleife Pronunciation ExcellenceThe Nürburgring-Nordschleife is hard to drive - and its sectors are also hard to pronounce for...
- Yannik Haustein
- Updated:
- 1 min read