Authorised Vendor DK Sigma Motion System | USA Made

[NetLawMan]

Good point with Apple, and they do that to control quality at the expense of compatibility. Playstation's platform only Grand Turismo 7 is another such example.

But the short answer is yes and no. Some software companies we do contact for guidance and access to API's but most modern titles have excellent documentation and support fully available. Where I think this made sense in the past is when API's were not open and custom requests had to be made, specially for telemetry data specific to motion.

Do you know or have any specific examples of a motion company working with a software provider for something specific? Genuinely interested.

My understanding is that dbox works with certain companies and there is deeper integration. Whether that means better, I don’t know. And although I can say that dbox motion is exceptional, I can’t personally say it is better because I have not used other systems. I can say their integration of tactile vibration is wonderful (a fact that SRG emphasizes multiples times in his reviews).

Why bring up dbox? First, you asked . Second, I do think they are the benchmark. However, the most important thing is competition, especially as dbox pushes further towards others types of home entertainment. I think they are leaving a hole due to the unreasonable cost of their longer travel systems. It’s a hole I would like to see filled by another North American company (hint .

 

[SigmaMotion]

My understanding is that dbox works with certain companies and there is deeper integration. Whether that means better, I don’t know. And although I can say that dbox motion is exceptional, I can’t personally say it is better because I have not used other systems. I can say their integration of tactile vibration is wonderful (a fact that SRG emphasizes multiples times in his reviews).

Why bring up dbox? First, you asked . Second, I do think they are the benchmark. However, the most important thing is competition, especially as dbox pushes further towards others types of home entertainment. I think they are leaving a hole due to the unreasonable cost of their longer travel systems. It’s a hole I would like to see filled by another North American company (hint .

SRG would be a good source of analysis as he does experience it all, definitely more than I personally have experienced and he is unbiased. Barry also has this finesse about him, being able to break things apart, examine the fine details and talk about it eloquently. It is quite difficult to do in real life. Harder than it looks lol.

Good point about leaving a hole in the market and it is interesting as so many motion companies in the past few years have jumped in to fill it. I appreciate that. Companies should want competition, I think it rises all boats. Imagine doing a race, being the only one and winning be default. Not much of a win. Boring and not my type of race.

I forwarded your questions to our actual genius developers/integrators and this is their reply in quotes:

" In our experience, all the data we need for our Sigma motion layers to work, are available in the standard telemetry system. The data we need is very simple: pitch angle, roll angle, surge acceleration, sway acceleration, heave acceleration, engine speed, and suspension deflections. We have not found a need for any special data, which may be the case for motion systems that rely on custom events to trigger effects. Instead, we happily develop algorithms that process standard telemetry data. Especially for tactile feedback, it ensures that the vibrations are dynamic and real. "

 

[NetLawMan]

SRG would be a good source of analysis as he does experience it all, definitely more than I personally have experienced and he is unbiased. Barry also has this finesse about him, being able to break things apart, examine the fine details and talk about it eloquently. It is quite difficult to do in real life. Harder than it looks lol.

Good point about leaving a hole in the market and it is interesting as so many motion companies in the past few years have jumped in to fill it. I appreciate that. Companies should want competition, I think it rises all boats. Imagine doing a race, being the only one and winning be default. Not much of a win. Boring and not my type of race.

I forwarded your questions to our actual genius developers/integrators and this is their reply in quotes:

" In our experience, all the data we need for our Sigma motion layers to work, are available in the standard telemetry system. The data we need is very simple: pitch angle, roll angle, surge acceleration, sway acceleration, heave acceleration, engine speed, and suspension deflections. We have not found a need for any special data, which may be the case for motion systems that rely on custom events to trigger effects. Instead, we happily develop algorithms that process standard telemetry data. Especially for tactile feedback, it ensures that the vibrations are dynamic and real. "

The one thing so would say is that many companies have jumped in, in terms of the HW, but few if any have really committed to the SW, and the long term development necessary to be the best (not referring to you). Instead they seem to be focused on getting constant HW product out the door by catering to DIY or latching onto an existing SW package. To be clear, a little competition is better than no competition, but there really needs to be a much stronger emphasis on software development leading the hardware development.

 

[SigmaMotion]

The one thing so would say is that many companies have jumped in, in terms of the HW, but few if any have really committed to the SW, and the long term development necessary to be the best (not referring to you). Instead they seem to be focused on getting constant HW product out the door by catering to DIY or latching onto an existing SW package. To be clear, a little competition is better than no competition, but there really needs to be a much stronger emphasis on software development leading the hardware development.

This is a very good description of the market NetLawMan. This is also why we jumped into the prosumer motion products after a long stint of only doing commercial high value specialty motion projects. (a mouthful sorry lol) I hope our discussion benefits others reading it and trying to decide on their next motion system.

Firstly, we love the open source community and hence why we sell our actuator online for the open source community to purchase and use how they please for their motion projects. Although they would need to make some kind of custom adapter and use a custom connection (spider coupling).

And as you say, there are companies that simply 'catalog engineer' their actuators from a standard catalog of parts, and claim they are the best, the cheapest and disregard your time to 3D print or assemble various pieces (kit car style). So there are always compromises, otherwise they would have dominated the market already. Similarly, Linux/Ubuntu is free but the setup time and functionality of these systems is not. (hope that analogy makes sense) So if you have lots of time, and a lower budget, its a great alternative and that is where competition, as you say, is definitely nice. Accommodating all budgets and demands.

But in our humble opinion, you need to fully control both the hardware and software to be able to genuinely say you have the 'best system' or even the lowest latency. Many companies claim low latency, ZERO latency, and we've even heard negative latency (yup we are bending space and time). Hence why we actually state our latency figures openly on our website under the tab "latency", see below.

But its more than just latency or 'working closely with game developers' which is a subjective claim and a half-truth of sorts and hence hard to use as a quantitative determining factor. Same with FIA approved. What does that mean? I truly don't know. Genuinely interested how FIA, a governing safety body, can add value to specialty prosumer motion systems...

So back to your point, our approach is really full stack, top to bottom, made in the USA for whatever that means today. Is it for everyone? Probably not, but for what it is, our motion philosophy is such, that if you want optimal performance you have to control as much of the signal and processing as possible. We do the best when we can and we don't try to do what we can't do well. We also mitigate the use of 'effects' (which are man made and can create false positives) and do as much real-time native motion as possible from the game, first principles approach. The compromise here is that if some games do only 60Hz, we loose out one some higher resolution feedback, but we have that covered with smarter algorithms just like our dynamic scaling algorithm that uses as much of the 2" stroke for each active layer.

So in short you are absolutely bang on:

1) software matters and being able to control and pass on RAW data to the controller immediately for real-time processing in an embedded system and not a non-deterministic software like Windows. (we've tried various sub-systems that do real-time processing in Windows like INtime and others that lock in the CPU cores at boot up, but a hardware solution is best. ;-) )

2) the algorithms matter, keeping them genuine, effects free is possible and efficient processing the signals received from the computer. This is where most improvement is needed, as its also the hardest field of study and implementation with low level programming and optimization. (NASA contributed a lot in this area over the years)

3) proper power systems matter, that are peak power focused, regenerative resistors, optical isolated for EMI and with various intelligent state. For example each Teknic motor can be connected to and features a software oscilloscope and many other features to tune optimally.

4) mechanical systems also matter, being able to efficiently convert software and electrical signals to mechanical motion, for a long time and under all conditions. So not all ball screws, thrust bearings, sleaves and materials are created equal. ;-) Let me just end with that our ball screws are massive. lol.

Thanks.

 

[NetLawMan]

This is a very good description of the market NetLawMan. This is also why we jumped into the prosumer motion products after a long stint of only doing commercial high value specialty motion projects. (a mouthful sorry lol) I hope our discussion benefits others reading it and trying to decide on their next motion system.

Firstly, we love the open source community and hence why we sell our actuator online for the open source community to purchase and use how they please for their motion projects. Although they would need to make some kind of custom adapter and use a custom connection (spider coupling).

And as you say, there are companies that simply 'catalog engineer' their actuators from a standard catalog of parts, and claim they are the best, the cheapest and disregard your time to 3D print or assemble various pieces (kit car style). So there are always compromises, otherwise they would have dominated the market already. Similarly, Linux/Ubuntu is free but the setup time and functionality of these systems is not. (hope that analogy makes sense) So if you have lots of time, and a lower budget, its a great alternative and that is where competition, as you say, is definitely nice. Accommodating all budgets and demands.

But in our humble opinion, you need to fully control both the hardware and software to be able to genuinely say you have the 'best system' or even the lowest latency. Many companies claim low latency, ZERO latency, and we've even heard negative latency (yup we are bending space and time). Hence why we actually state our latency figures openly on our website under the tab "latency", see below.
View attachment 550467
But its more than just latency or 'working closely with game developers' which is a subjective claim and a half-truth of sorts and hence hard to use as a quantitative determining factor. Same with FIA approved. What does that mean? I truly don't know. Genuinely interested how FIA, a governing safety body, can add value to specialty prosumer motion systems...

So back to your point, our approach is really full stack, top to bottom, made in the USA for whatever that means today. Is it for everyone? Probably not, but for what it is, our motion philosophy is such, that if you want optimal performance you have to control as much of the signal and processing as possible. We do the best when we can and we don't try to do what we can't do well. We also mitigate the use of 'effects' (which are man made and can create false positives) and do as much real-time native motion as possible from the game, first principles approach. The compromise here is that if some games do only 60Hz, we loose out one some higher resolution feedback, but we have that covered with smarter algorithms just like our dynamic scaling algorithm that uses as much of the 2" stroke for each active layer.

So in short you are absolutely bang on:

1) software matters and being able to control and pass on RAW data to the controller immediately for real-time processing in an embedded system and not a non-deterministic software like Windows. (we've tried various sub-systems that do real-time processing in Windows like INtime and others that lock in the CPU cores at boot up, but a hardware solution is best. ;-) )

2) the algorithms matter, keeping them genuine, effects free is possible and efficient processing the signals received from the computer. This is where most improvement is needed, as its also the hardest field of study and implementation with low level programming and optimization. (NASA contributed a lot in this area over the years)

3) proper power systems matter, that are peak power focused, regenerative resistors, optical isolated for EMI and with various intelligent state. For example each Teknic motor can be connected to and features a software oscilloscope and many other features to tune optimally.

4) mechanical systems also matter, being able to efficiently convert software and electrical signals to mechanical motion, for a long time and under all conditions. So not all ball screws, thrust bearings, sleaves and materials are created equal. ;-) Let me just end with that our ball screws are massive. lol.

Thanks.

Made/designed/invented/developed in the USA means a lot, especially today!

Really impressed with your thoughts here. I truly look forward to an opportunity to try your motion system!

 

[NetLawMan]

This is a very good description of the market NetLawMan. This is also why we jumped into the prosumer motion products after a long stint of only doing commercial high value specialty motion projects. (a mouthful sorry lol) I hope our discussion benefits others reading it and trying to decide on their next motion system.

Firstly, we love the open source community and hence why we sell our actuator online for the open source community to purchase and use how they please for their motion projects. Although they would need to make some kind of custom adapter and use a custom connection (spider coupling).

And as you say, there are companies that simply 'catalog engineer' their actuators from a standard catalog of parts, and claim they are the best, the cheapest and disregard your time to 3D print or assemble various pieces (kit car style). So there are always compromises, otherwise they would have dominated the market already. Similarly, Linux/Ubuntu is free but the setup time and functionality of these systems is not. (hope that analogy makes sense) So if you have lots of time, and a lower budget, its a great alternative and that is where competition, as you say, is definitely nice. Accommodating all budgets and demands.

But in our humble opinion, you need to fully control both the hardware and software to be able to genuinely say you have the 'best system' or even the lowest latency. Many companies claim low latency, ZERO latency, and we've even heard negative latency (yup we are bending space and time). Hence why we actually state our latency figures openly on our website under the tab "latency", see below.
View attachment 550467
But its more than just latency or 'working closely with game developers' which is a subjective claim and a half-truth of sorts and hence hard to use as a quantitative determining factor. Same with FIA approved. What does that mean? I truly don't know. Genuinely interested how FIA, a governing safety body, can add value to specialty prosumer motion systems...

So back to your point, our approach is really full stack, top to bottom, made in the USA for whatever that means today. Is it for everyone? Probably not, but for what it is, our motion philosophy is such, that if you want optimal performance you have to control as much of the signal and processing as possible. We do the best when we can and we don't try to do what we can't do well. We also mitigate the use of 'effects' (which are man made and can create false positives) and do as much real-time native motion as possible from the game, first principles approach. The compromise here is that if some games do only 60Hz, we loose out one some higher resolution feedback, but we have that covered with smarter algorithms just like our dynamic scaling algorithm that uses as much of the 2" stroke for each active layer.

So in short you are absolutely bang on:

1) software matters and being able to control and pass on RAW data to the controller immediately for real-time processing in an embedded system and not a non-deterministic software like Windows. (we've tried various sub-systems that do real-time processing in Windows like INtime and others that lock in the CPU cores at boot up, but a hardware solution is best. ;-) )

2) the algorithms matter, keeping them genuine, effects free is possible and efficient processing the signals received from the computer. This is where most improvement is needed, as its also the hardest field of study and implementation with low level programming and optimization. (NASA contributed a lot in this area over the years)

3) proper power systems matter, that are peak power focused, regenerative resistors, optical isolated for EMI and with various intelligent state. For example each Teknic motor can be connected to and features a software oscilloscope and many other features to tune optimally.

4) mechanical systems also matter, being able to efficiently convert software and electrical signals to mechanical motion, for a long time and under all conditions. So not all ball screws, thrust bearings, sleaves and materials are created equal. ;-) Let me just end with that our ball screws are massive. lol.

Thanks.

Can you describe what it means to use 2” of travel for each active layer?

Also, totally get what you mean by the ambiguity of working closely with game developers. I think the main open question is whether game developers withhold certain access (APIs, features) and reserve it for partners (perhaps by excluding it from the telemetry stream), thereby putting non “partners” at a disadvantage. Without inside knowledge; I have no idea whether this is the case.

 

[SigmaMotion]

Can you describe what it means to use 2” of travel for each active layer?

Also, totally get what you mean by the ambiguity of working closely with game developers. I think the main open question is whether game developers withhold certain access (APIs, features) and reserve it for partners (perhaps by excluding it from the telemetry stream), thereby putting non “partners” at a disadvantage. Without inside knowledge; I have no idea whether this is the case.

This is our Dynamic Scaling Algorithm that we developed to maximize the full stroke of the motion system. From our website:

"
First, we need to understand, that 1 degree of pitch, will use different amounts of travel, depending on the distance between the front and rear actuators (rig length). Also, 1 degree of roll will use different amounts of travel, depending on the distance between the left and right actuators (rig width). For the examples below, let's use a rig length of 30" and a rig width of 30".

Let's start with the common static allocation for a 3DOF 2" motion system. DK2 currently has four layers of pitch and roll (DK6 has 6 layers) and 1 layer of heave.

Heave: 40% (0.8 inch)
Surge to pitch (highlights pedal and shift inputs): 15% (+/- 0.57311 degrees, 0.3 inch)
Sway to roll (highlights turning roll): 15% (+/- 0.57311 degrees, 0.3 inch)
Environment pitch (real pitch): 15% (+/- 0.57311 degrees, 0.3 inch)
Environment roll (real roll): 15% (+/- 0.57311 degrees, 0.3 inch)
Total allocation: 40% + 15% + 15% + 15% + 15% = 100%
Total travel allocated: 0.8" + 0.3" + 0.3" + 0.3" + 0.3" = 2.0"

The are 2 main issues with this approach:

1) Each of the pitch & roll layer only has a range of +/- 0.57311 degrees, which is too little from our experience. As the rig dimensions get longer and wider, this range will get even smaller! i.e. At rig length of 49", the pitch range drops to +/- 0.35 degrees. To mitigate this, you can use less motion layers but that would be a huge compromise. Our research shows the importance of these four pitch and roll layers. Another approach is to reduce the heave allocation of 40% (0.8 inch). Unfortunately, this is also a huge compromise and we believe 0.8 inch is the absolute minimum for heave.

2) Not all the layers are fully active all the time, thus wasting precious travel space.

Sigma's Solution:

Our research shows that each pitch & roll layer needs an allocation of at least 1 degree. Hence, Sigma uses degrees to allocate travel. This approach also allows the motion experience to be identical regardless of the rig's length and width. i.e. same car, same track, same tuning setting, same braking force applied, will generate the same pitch in the rig, regardless of the rig’s length.

Here is the final allocation of the DK2 system for a rig with 30” length and 30” width:

Heave - 40% (0.8 inch)
Surge to pitch (highlights pedal and shift inputs): 1.00 degree (26.2%, 0.524 inch)
Sway to roll (highlights turning roll): 1.25 degrees (32.72%, 0.6544 inch)
Environment pitch (real pitch): +/- 1.25 degrees (32.72%, 0.6544 inch)
Environment roll (real roll): +/- 1.25 degrees (32.72%, 0.6544 inch)
Total allocation: 40% + 26.2% + 32.72% + 32.72% + 32.72% = 164.36%
Total travel allocated: 0.8" + 0.524" + 0.6544" + 0.6544" + 0.6544" = 3.2872"

In other words, the system is over allocated (164.36%) and is comparable to a system with 3.2872" travel.

If the rig length is increased to 49", and the width stays at 30", here are the allocation results:
The system is over allocated (212.34%) and is comparable to a system with 4.2468" travel.

The dynamic-scaling-algorithm works on the four pitch and roll layers, which shares 60% of the physical travel, while the heave layer gets a dedicated 40% physical allocation. When the four pitch & roll layers exceed the physical space available, each of the four layers are dynamically scaled lower, so they fit the travel space. The result is the illusion of a much longer travel system.

The origin of this algorithm is from Sigma's full motion systems (commercial full-size vehicles) where the amount of travel required to make 1 degree of pitch, or 1 degree of roll, takes up almost the full travel of the system. A static allocation approach simply would diminish the motion experience, and the development of this dynamic-scaling-algorithm was absolutely critical.

"

 

[NetLawMan]

You have been super helpful.

Can you provide info on the ability to do high frequency vibrations needed for engine vibration and road texture? Can it be done, or do I need to supplement with a haptics system?

How about servo speed/power/torque. Note that I don’t care about raw numbers and stats. I care only about the practical side of how things work as a full stack system (how the HW/SW work when playing a game). For example, I don’t care about comparative torque numbers, I only care that all the effects can be fully achieved, at full speed and power, on a fully loaded rig. I don’t think it would be a shock to have a 275lb user on a 200-300lb rig.

Moreover, given all the torque and movement, is an 80/20 rig the best choice?

Thanks:

 

[NetLawMan]

I have been watching your motion talk videos on YouTube with your head engineer. Very interested. Right now, wanting to understand with certainty, what is the weight capacity of the DK2+ and DK6 systems. 500lbs? 600? 800?

Also, I might have mentioned previously that I am beginning to worry about the ability of a typical 80/20 rig to handle the torque and twisting of a 6” motion system. Therefore, for the DK2+ and DK6, what sort of platform or rig is recommended?

Thanks!

 

[SigmaMotion]

You have been super helpful.

Can you provide info on the ability to do high frequency vibrations needed for engine vibration and road texture? Can it be done, or do I need to supplement with a haptics system?

How about servo speed/power/torque. Note that I don’t care about raw numbers and stats. I care only about the practical side of how things work as a full stack system (how the HW/SW work when playing a game). For example, I don’t care about comparative torque numbers, I only care that all the effects can be fully achieved, at full speed and power, on a fully loaded rig. I don’t think it would be a shock to have a 275lb user on a 200-300lb rig.

Moreover, given all the torque and movement, is an 80/20 rig the best choice?

Thanks:

Sure! I will answer your questions in short and then point you to our website for further reading/clarification. :-P

The short answer is no, you do not need to supplement our motion system with transducers or shakers. The Engine Vibration/EV and Road Vibration/RV layers do a fantastic job at translating the high frequency motion signals to the chassis.

Yes the system is rated with a performance/safety overhead included so a DK2 can safely perform at up to 500lbs total mass and the DK2+ at 800lbs total mass. I myself am 270lbs and no problems on a 210lb Advanced Sim Racing chassis.

Further information is linked here: https://www.sigmaintegrale.com/document-tactile-vibrations-under-the-hood/

(sorry to link out, just didn't want to fuss with formatting for legibility)

We've seen and created various chassis designs. The most heavy being 500lbs just for the base made from solid aluminum without any of the attachments. We also used to sell and provide Human Racing monocoque chassis that weighted less than 60 lbs. fully ready. In our opinion, aluminum extrusion is one of our favorites, because it allows for flexibility and can be easily modified, changed and repurposed as needed. A little bit of yield is also tolerable with a motion base. Even cars have some yield engineered in. And one of our favorite suppliers, albeit expensive, is https://vention.io/ but almost any chassis today is great.

Thanks for the great questions!

 

[SigmaMotion]

I have been watching your motion talk videos on YouTube with your head engineer. Very interested. Right now, wanting to understand with certainty, what is the weight capacity of the DK2+ and DK6 systems. 500lbs? 600? 800?

Also, I might have mentioned previously that I am beginning to worry about the ability of a typical 80/20 rig to handle the torque and twisting of a 6” motion system. Therefore, for the DK2+ and DK6, what sort of platform or rig is recommended?

Thanks!

DK2 4-actuator is rated for up to 500lbs or 227kg total weight.
DK2+ and DK6 is rated for up to 800lbs or 363kg total weight.

Any extruded platform is good. We've used Advanced Sim Racing, All in One and even made our own from just McMaster.com. We like the vention.io extruded aluminum products the most, as mentioned in previous post and its what All in One uses.

Regarding weight capabilities, this video summarizes it best: Motion Talk #2 - Weight Capacity of Motion Actuators - by Sigma Integrale:

 

[SigmaMotion]

In terms of servo performance here is a "Full Send Video" of the Teknic actuators hitting full speed in 2" of travel:

And a 3rd party test of the same servo against others in that frame size, which is also interesting to see and compare:

In due time, we will post a side-by-side comparison of the DK2 and DK2+ in iRacing with the Trophy Trucks to show more of the Dynamic Scaling algorithm as well.

 

[NetLawMan]

Thanks for answering all of the questions. It would be great to see a few vids of the DK6 in action. I think most on your website are DK2. Have a good weekend!

 

[NetLawMan]

In terms of servo performance here is a "Full Send Video" of the Teknic actuators hitting full speed in 2" of travel:

And a 3rd party test of the same servo against others in that frame size, which is also interesting to see and compare:

In due time, we will post a side-by-side comparison of the DK2 and DK2+ in iRacing with the Trophy Trucks to show more of the Dynamic Scaling algorithm as well.

What would be very helpful would be comparison videos allowing us to understand how the DK2+ and DK6 with in games such as AC, F1, and Dirt Rally 2. The main idea is that it would be helpful to understand whether for those types of games, 6 inch travel is worth it and makes sense, or if the travel is Un-used then the conclusion is to go with the DK2+

 

[NetLawMan]

Quick questions: I know your videos state you only implement the things that can be done well - makes sense.

(1) does that include skidding and/or loss of traction?

(2) with my current dbox system, in Dirt Rally 2, the car and the engine feel very different with heavy damage (like when you realize it might be time to retire from the race). You feel like you are in a car that is breaking down, with an engine that is struggling. You feel the engine lurching and burping, yet unable to sustain for than an idle speed. My point is that the sense of immersion does not end immediately when the car is no longer in perfect condition. — Do you either have something similar implemented or something like this on the software roadmap?

 

[SigmaMotion]

Thanks for answering all of the questions. It would be great to see a few vids of the DK6 in action. I think most on your website are DK2. Have a good weekend!

Soon. ;-)

 

[SigmaMotion]

What would be very helpful would be comparison videos allowing us to understand how the DK2+ and DK6 with in games such as AC, F1, and Dirt Rally 2. The main idea is that it would be helpful to understand whether for those types of games, 6 inch travel is worth it and makes sense, or if the travel is Un-used then the conclusion is to go with the DK2+

That is a great idea and more videos coming soon. But a direct comparison back to back would be great indeed. Hoping to get some 3rd parties to review and compare the three products also...

Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[SigmaMotion]

Quick questions: I know your videos state you only implement the things that can be done well - makes sense.

(1) does that include skidding and/or loss of traction?

(2) with my current dbox system, in Dirt Rally 2, the car and the engine feel very different with heavy damage (like when you realize it might be time to retire from the race). You feel like you are in a car that is breaking down, with an engine that is struggling. You feel the engine lurching and burping, yet unable to sustain for than an idle speed. My point is that the sense of immersion does not end immediately when the car is no longer in perfect condition. — Do you either have something similar implemented or something like this on the software roadmap?

More great questions! ;-)

1) Yes. Anything that comes through the suspension of the vehicle will be represented in the high frequency road vibration layer. This includes any rapid vibrations/movements in the sim that translates to the vehicle suspension. This requires a frequency output of 60Hz or greater to get that necessary detail to come through.

For example in ACC (400Hz), sliding the car sideways does give a gentle vibration or tactile feedback to the DK motion system indicating a slide. So no effects are necessary. And we do NOT add made-up effects such as skidding, drifting or other such loss of traction events. Some motion providers decide that all lateral vehicle movements are in effect a loss of traction event. So they slowly ramp up or down in amplitude certain made up vibration to represent that side tire wall friction 'rubbing' as it slides. This works as an effect but we found it quickly stops representing the actuality of what is happening in the simulated environment. Hence the false positives that are created when traction always feels the same, even on dirt, grass, ice, snow, and with different tires, tire compounds and suspension setups. The effect sometimes doesn't change either, so the rumble feels the same at 30 mph as it does at 100 mph. Curbs in some games are similar.

So we are the mercy of the developers, if they provide us with high frequency motion telemetry to sample from and they model the skidding properly in game, then we will show what comes through the suspension. Otherwise if they don't model or open the data then, we won't pretend we know the car, the surface, the speed or any other myriad of conditions that will make the tactile feedback feel unique. (ex. great example to prove this is to run Late Model cars in iRacing on a dirt oval track where you are 50-60% almost always sideways, sustaining a controlled drift.)

2) This is similar to the answer in question 1. If the software does not model that in the engine vibration and/or suspension layer than we would not make that assumption and try to model what a defective engine sounds like. I did several session in Dirt Rally 2.0 (60Hz) today and did notice various engine/transmission damage accumulate over time before "Terminal Damage". What you do feel is the car bogging or slower RPM ramp up, rough idle, etc... Or everything that is represented by the engine's RPM fluctuations including stall and start up conditions. Similarly in iRacing the big soft V8's cars will roll the chassis slightly when idling in neutral, representing the motors inertia on the chassis. Organic effects are great!

 

[NetLawMan]

I looked at the article on your website about layers, focusing specifically on the EV layer, you suggest complimenting with a haptic system. I also noticed in a couple of your videos, a haptic transducer mounted to the side of the seat.

Q: is there a n example HW/SW haptics solution that you can point to? For example, simVibe and simHub seem to be big in the space (I have used both with Clark full frequency transducers). Is it more of a question of leveraging the game soundtrack? I have a Clark transducer that I run to complement headphones. Bottom line, given how turn-key your motion solution is, I would want to keep a complementary haptic system as simple as possible, yet not have it clash with or cancel out the motion system.

 

[OlaGB]

I looked at the article on your website about layers, focusing specifically on the EV layer, you suggest complimenting with a haptic system. I also noticed in a couple of your videos, a haptic transducer mounted to the side of the seat.

Q: is there a n example HW/SW haptics solution that you can point to? For example, simVibe and simHub seem to be big in the space (I use both with Clark full frequency transducers). Is it more of a question of leveraging the game soundtrack? I have a Clark transducer that I run to complement headphones. Bottom line, given how turn-key your motion solution is, I would want to keep a complementary haptic system as simple as possible, yet not have it clash with or cancel out the motion system.

Hi

I’m running tactile together with my DK2..

Using Simhub, even just adding the typical RPM range with a low end lowpass filter, adds a fun extra high freq layer that complements DK2 EV very well!
As easy as; enable, pull slider to tune frequency, set level, done.

Is it needed? No.
Even if DK2 EV is still on v1.0, its allready very good! And theres basicly no tuning needed.
The DK2 has waay more available energy in the tactile department than the typical sized shakers!

That said, there are no such thing as 1 single motion system that does everything way better than a combo of motion and a advanced tactile setup .

But the DK2 is allready providing a multilayer signal, that is very good today. It’s very different from just a single increasing frequency.
And it will be developed even more in later sw updates!

Disclaimer, i’m helping the Sigma team with beta testing / feedback on the DK2 (which i bought for full retail price).
And no, not on theire payroll..

I’m running a medium advanced tactile, which i am further developing to a pretty advanced system these days.
This is absolutely not neccesary, i just want the best of both worlds.

And ofcourse i’m using the experience from the multilayer tactile system to compare and give feedback to Sigma for further improvements.