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CG vs. Non-CG

Discussion in 'Racer' started by camsinny, Jun 23, 2010.

  1. I apologise in advance because this thread is not in a light mood and may anger/upset some people, but this is my view, feel free to post yours.

    Recently Racer has come leaps and bounds and now rivals the graphics of GT5 and IMHO can be better. So it really irritates me when I see all the crap that is being released these days. I'm not going to deny it, this post really rubbed me the wrong way:

    This is in no way an attack solely on AMGfan, I know he's good at converting cars but therein lies the problem.
    When cars are created for a game the artist creates the model around the game engine. Racer currently uses OpenGL and CG (In it's latest guise) and this is COMPLETELY different to basically all games out there. Taking a car from say, GTA and converting it to Racer will end up with ****, however you polish it, unless you spend a lot of time on the car, that time you invest should be equal IMO to creating a car from scratch, otherwise you're releasing a half-assed effort that will inevitably be ****.

    I can't speak for all artists but it really angers me when you spend so much time and effort modelling a car, taking note of the nuances of the car body, the shapes and flow of the car body and ending up with a car mesh you're really happy with and proud of only to have some guy post a 2 hour or 2 day conversion which ends up **** but gets all the attention.
    Artists put hours of care and attention into their meshes and when your work ends up getting shunned for some ****ty conversion, it really disheartens you and makes you think twice about releasing content again.

    Now, I've never lost the urge to release content, and I am extremely proud of my work, this is why I cannot understand why people are still releasing content and planning content to be sub-par. Why would you release a car or track not wanting it to look the best it can?
    This is where the CG vs. Non-CG debate comes in.
    CG is clearly the way forward. I can within 5 minutes, load up a website and order a graphics card capable of running CG for less than 50AUD.
    In a week I spend more on petrol than that. I cannot fathom how 70 or 80% of the Racer community can't spare $50 to buy a graphics card.
    Bear in mind that with this you could play all the new games coming out, you might need to upgrade your CPU in the end but it's a good starting point for a new PC.

    I've been lurking around these forums since the move. I was at RSC for a few years before the shutdown and I believe I'm one of the longest members of the Racer community.
    In the time I've been around I've learnt a lot about cars and modelling, physics and have since started my career in 3d art.
    My career is important to me because I love what I do. If I'm not content with what I'm producing I'll dump it all and start again because I want an end product I'm proud of.

    It really angers me when the community is so ungrateful of all the time and effort Ruud puts into a game you get for FREE that's one of the best platforms you'll ever experience.

    No, it's not Ruud's fault ATi cards are **** with OGL, it's ATi's fault, stop blaming him.
    On that note, stop complaining that you don't have a Non-CG edition of the latest version of Racer to play with. If you want to keep up with the development and progress of this great simulator fork out $50 and buy yourself a new GPU, you'll thank yourself for it.

    I'm making no apologies for any of my opinions here, I stand by everything I say and believe that Racer has so much potential that's yet to be recognised.

    Ruud is trying to move the game forward. The community is holding Racer back.
  2. I spent £300 on a PS3 and GT5P almost a year ago, and I'm STILL waiting for GT5 proper.

    I played GT5P for a week or two, then came back to Racer...

    Racer is ace!

    Considering the cost needed to get a good PC to run Racer, it's pretty cheap considering ALL the other stuff you would use it for. My PC isn't "fast" by todays standards, I could duplicate it today for about £400 I think... but I can play Racer with CSM and 1024x768 at 60-70fps on well-made and optimised content!

    I somewhat agree with Cam. I have a whole folder full of conversions from NFS4/5 through to NFS Shift, mainly used as meshes to stick in when developing sounds/physics for cars etc... or just personal fun.
    But there is a point where you grab say the NFS Shift Veyron, and look at the mesh and think, to REALLY make this look fantastic and be it's best for Racer, I'll have weeks of work here, and it'll be just a conversion... where is my motivation to put so much effort into a conversion?

    I decided after I converted Manuitus's BMW M5 that I'd be better just making my own cars in future, then I would get all the glory... they also looked better because I made them really nicely from the ground up for the Racer engine... which ultimately has always been pretty much at the leading edge on graphics and sensible use of them...
    Ie, Stecki's old Mini, 350Z and RX8 etc, all use techniques that still make total sense today... the fact they can be upgraded to the latest gfx spec in a few hours and them look fantastic, shows that they are well made... pieces of proper 3D art/content.

    To be honest I really like the meshes in NFS Shift, but the texutres and method of them being textured seems rather tatty and poor, that is why I wouldn't want to convert directly at all. I'd use the mesh as a HQ blueprint, especially for the interior, and that would be it... that said I've spotted accuracy errors on their meshes in places!

    I will agree we are holding Racer back to a fair old degree. I'm guilty of not working on my content but I do get easily distracted by tinkering with all facets of Racer!
    There are lots of bugbears with the current Racer version that I think just need the smallest coding tweaks to sort out properly, things that have been there for a long time, but ultimately I know that the biggest problem is that even with them fixed, there is no content out there that REALLY uses all of Racers features that do work properly, to the max! That is what I hope to achieve :D

    I think V09 will help things though. People like Stecki, Some1, Bumper, Tiberius etc are ALL still out there with the skills and capabilities to make fantastic stuff, but it's just hard to do it for Racer right now and enjoy it. When we see the screenies of top-end content in V09 I'm sure there will be loads of people come back to Racer to showcase their skills and work again :D

    There are still a few holding on and trying their best, but it's not like 4 years ago when there was just new good top-end ish level stuff coming out every other day... I think that is just the fact we went from the old gfx system to a new version over that time, and LOTS of things have changed from an artists perspective.

    Hopefully we will get a renaissance in Racer over the coming year, and have people out there wondering if an Xbox360 or PS3 is the best choice using Forza 3 or GT5, or a PC Nvidia box running Racer :D :D

  3. Hm. Interesting post. I understand your frustration, and I sympathize. But I do not agree all together. Yes, there are some really bad cars and tracks. But I do not agree that /all/ conversions look like ****. And even some of the worst looking cars have some really good meshes, which, with some effort from the user, could be made to look good and handle well, as my daughter (and she is only 8) and I did with the Mini Cooper S, as I did with the 68 Cuda, the 69 Z28, with the... well.. you get the point. It is however, really a shame if you do not get the credit you expect. As you, I have put a lot of pride, effort and time into making tracks. Of course I want them to be as perfect as possible, but perfection is limited by knowledge, and as I gain knowledge, my tracks get better. As does my knowledge about the old shaders.

    And that brings me to point #2..

    Yes, it will (or might) look better with CG.. but.. and this is important, I have spent a lot of time learning the older shader system (yes, I have been warned time and time again that it will be obsolete), mainly because I CANNOT use a newer GPU with my computer - because it is a SLIM box with no extra slots! There is no room. Even if I was given the latest NVidia for free, I would not benefit from it. And this is also a fact for many others using /laptops/ - you cannot just go out and buy a new GPU. And demanding that they buy a new computer is just plain silly...

    #3. Ruud.
    Yes, I did in fact /beg/ Ruud (though noone likes a beggar - but I did it not just for me, but for all us nocg users) for a nocg version of 089, with the reason being that I could not complete my tracks unless he made a version I could run. 088 (or .1) no longer runs on my computer, and the only one before 08X that I managed to run was 063. And that is plain impossible to use nowadays. So yes, I admit, I begged, I pleaded, I put my pride on the line, so that I could at least finish the tracks I have started.. If that is bad, well, sorry.. but as you, and as I have said, I have put an enormous amount of time and energy into my tracks.. and not being able to finish, or share, is like hiding your light in a dark place.. I have made my tracks for the community..

    I do not blame Ruud, in fact, I think I understand where he is heading, and it is good, it looks good, and it is the "future". No problem there, it is just this one thing - I want to be able to finish my tracks, even if everyone starts using CG and I am the only one still using the old non-cg shaders, because I already have started, because I know this system pretty well now, because I have put so much time into doing it.. and of course.. because it is the only shaders I can run (well, almost.. I can run lvl2 shaders but not lvl3, at least my GPU states this..).

    But - thank you for your post. I have no idea why I felt the need to defend myself.. maybe because you claimed some of us were blaming Ruud and asking for a noncg.. well.. I did not blame him, but I did indeed beg for it.. sure. For the reasons stated above. But maybe, on some beautiful warm summer day.. or one dark winter night.. I come across a different computer, shining like a distant light in the darkness, screaming with a load and terrible voice.. "I am CG compatible, and I am coming to get you".. heh.. that'll be the day.. ;)

    Thanks for reading, and sorry for the long post.
  4. Well, I think you are right (in some cases) when you say that people shouldn't complain about not having a cg graphic card etc, but racer is still a game and even though I have the money I can't make myself buy a new computer or say steering wheel for a game. Partly cause I would buy a macbook pro (they are not cheap not even secondhand) And also because it'd be more clever to spent my money on more important things in life (at least for me). I agree with Luthobu about his cg point here too. I know I shouldn't say that it's a pity I can't run a cg version of racer, but It's not alway meant to be mean. It's great racer can look so good with the cg stuff etc. Nor am I blaming Ruud at all, but yeah, we do have wishes for better things and stuff don't we? I don't think its completely fair to say that people should just buy a good graphic card and stop complaining about it. Not always though, like i said.

    I agree that not every car is as good as possible and there are some crap cars too. Also I agree that one should want his work to be as good as possible, better than the other ones without being jealous or something so we keep on trying to do better and develop ourselves.
    But not everybody has the same capabilities or ambitions to model from scratch, and since this is free, you kinda ask for all kinds of people to participate with this. Personally I don't have time and interests to learn all the good stuff for racer but I do like playing it and I enjoy modeling cars. I only do what I want and can though and thats not wrong;). You are not forced to download, rate or comment on bad cars. Maybe You should compare or look at the same level of work and If someone's get more attention for his 2h conversion, well, see yourself as better and so be it though its not always nice not heaving appreciation for your work (at least, thats what I would do. Again without looking down to someone) You do it for yourself in the first place don't you?

    Maybe on both sides we should be more tolerant? I don't know...
    I hope I made some sense;)

    -> my opinion :)
  5. Lol wut?
  6. @camsinny. A huge thanks really!!! You saved me a lot of work of fixing a lot of details to make my cars perfect for releasing! I will not release any car again because it's considered s*** by being a conversion. And I'm deeply sorry that my parents aren't rich and I cannot spent 500$ in buying a new CG capable computer, because well... people have to eat right? What a bummer :(

    Now seriously... what the hell are you saying about a conversion is automatically s***??? I spent 2 months of work on my Fury to make it perfect. It's not CG because my computer doesn't support CG. I think that I said in the read-me (but of course, nobody ever reads them...) that if someone wants to make it CG, please do and don't even need to ask for permission.

    And what's the difference between a Fury made for GTA and a Fury made for Racer?? Any good 3d model is ACCURATE TO THE REAL CAR, not to the game! Hell, my Fury is more accurate than the standard Racer car and MANY scratch made Racer cars... so what the hell are you saying?? Just because someone else made the mesh it's goin to be a s***??

    My other released car, the Firebird, yes, it has various flaws. I have almost ready a re-release, but then I will not release it, so that you can point an example that conversions are s***. See? I'm a kind person!

    I respect 3d modelers a lot, they can and have the pacience to do what I can't, but you missed a damn good oppurtunity to be quiet, really...
  7. Well, it was missing a topic like this. Many years i wanted something like this to write. I dont know if i will explain all what i think, but i will try.

    I understand your point camsinny, this is a free world and you can have your opinion. But it doesnt mean I agree with it.

    When I started with racer, I used to make crap conversions, mbw13 teaches me how it worked, I always wanted to see in racer cars from my country. Now I can say I am doing it, this is the fact that many people from here is starting to see racer with other eyes. But when I started, I received a lot of criticism from the "biggers" of the racer, the owners, well, the mans who are THE mans that age. I wont write names here, it is too old and i cant remember all. And I tried to get better results to fit the cars better in game, to get the appearance like the best cars, like sam jigga car's (my reference, I like his job, he never said one thing to discourage me). My first car for racer was a poor f430, with heffners twin turbo kit, and he gave me permission to mod. ( and he knew i was starting with it, and didnt get afraid about, and i tried to do my better. You can say, nahh, ****ing crap f430.. but I liked this one, I wanted to see in racer, and looking on download numbers, i can say it was a success.)

    But ok, no one must like conversion, but I gotta remember it is a community and many persons like different cars. We can see here. I know we have around some bad conversions, but i attempt to many details, I try to dont leave one missing. I need ask? You, who dont like conversion, did you try one of my newer conversions? It has huge difference from another s one. I standardize my models, do right scale, fix textures issues, do a fix on 3d model if it need, do a good shader for non and cg users, fix qlog errors, realistic sounds, realistic performance. It is a suggestion, try and see where i wanna go.

    Backing on topic.

    CG is a nice feature, of sure. But, i wont buy a pc just to be the master of puppets on racer, to play full on cg, live, mirrors, whatever. I bought a new pc in january, my other one was too good for 8 years without big mods. Until december'09, i was playing racer 063, the last which my pc could run. So i bought a sony vaio notebook 17 widescreen, with nvidia vga, and i am pleased with it. And it isnt weak. It has a nice core 2 duo processor T6600, 4gb ram, 512mb vga. And i paid so much for it. Maybe where you live, pc parts are cheap. Here, it isnt. It is few people who can buy a pc to run racer with full features turned on. Here a gt9800 card, costs more than $300. And it is too much, using this money i would by a PS3 really. When i played i high poly car in cg track, using cg shader (thanks raphael), i got 22 fps. It is 'playable', but not much to enjoy something. But to me it isnt a problem, in my older pc, i got it using non-cg, and medium polies car. But persons dont wanna play with 20 fps, much lag, just to see it beautiful like cg can produce.

    Well, when i tried 088 with my new pc, I got pleased with projected lights, better textures, resolution etc. (To be honest, it is enough for me, i dont need a ****ing perfect game like NFS, that you can only drive 330km/h with lambo, doing that 90 degrees turns perfectly, and that annoying blur that you think you are drunk).

    It is an option to go to cg or no. Converted cars can looks good on cg, this is why i am doing with raphael a car only to use in cg versions. I personally, don't need it, to me non-cg is enough, I enjoy a lot, I have funny, I drive car which I want, I can simulate anything using my imagination. OH, AND I SHARE IT. Good, no?

    Oh, and my conversions dont take 2 hours.. to be honest, nobody used to understand, but with 19gb of converted cars, i have a good knowledge, i am fast, i work fast, a i have a library of parts, textures, and all what i need to convert a good car, and in my work i have free time and free pass to use pc, so i use to convert a car in more than 8 hours each day. These days i past with luthobu on msn, whole night, converting a car, I started 7 p.m. and working without stop i got it done 6 a.m. And talking with him together. And after good works, i got free pass to many authors of cars for gta. Trall, pumbars and others big on that.

    This is my point, sorry if you don't like conversion, but many like, and like m. jackson said, this is it. I won't stop.

    Thanks for your opinion.
  8. In most cases it's not the mesh quality that makes model look bad - it's the texturing or the lack of it.
    Take AMGfan's VWs Golf or Gol for example:
    -there's no static shading so even with CG shaders it looks like it's missing something
    -UV Mapping doesn't allow for baked textures since most of the car body is textured with flat, single color texture

    To make VW Golf look really good it'd require total remap and that's not a 5 minute job.
    Mesh looks really nice and complete and with some rendering engine tricks it can look fantastic without even touching the model - but not in Racer 089.
  9. I know, this is why i am doing baked textures for body with raphael help. He do a nice job on it.
  10. I also would like to add that your attitude is a deep lack of respect for everyone who converts and wants to improve the game's quality. Because converters like AMGFan do really good content for Racer, and you are basically spitting on his face, saying that his work is a ****. CONVERSIONS DO TAKE TIME AND EFFORT!!!!

    A 2h conversion is a deep s*** it is, but a good conversion sometimes takes weeks, in my case...

    I'm not comparing the time and work of converting to a scratch making, I'm just showing to your closed mind that converting also takes effort.

    Envite a friend of yours that hasn't never played Racer to try for example Some1's Toyota Supra (made from scratch) and AMGFan's 72 Camaro (converted). Do you really think that your friend would notice something that apparts one from another?? NO!!! Because they are both great cars!!! Both have great quality, and are usefull content for Racer!!

    Btw, please point out some cars that you've made for Racer, I haven't discovered any yet ;)

  11. The problem is, to do the best of a converted car for Racers needs, the work is almost the same as making a scratch made car... I know, from experience!

    That is why I don't bother converting, because to make the best of them for Racer means they take an age, and then you don't really get the credit that is due...

    I also think you learn a load about making cars if you do a really good one from scratch, and then it's good for your portfolio if you like doing 3d/2d graphics work :D

    Not putting conversions down, but I've not really seen any that just stand out as timeless Racer cars. All the best Racer cars were scratch made... I think Cam is just gutted because it seems some are judging Racer a bit too harshly right now when there is plenty more we the community can do to improve Racer beyond recognition with some fantastic content :D

  12. The point about people being content with releasing in quantities rather than qualities is something that I can't "understand" either. It's obvious that in a community there are always people with more time and ambition than others though. As long as a certain, subjective minimum is met, it'd be pointless to critize the lesser polished simply for being "worse". Critizing on a content related, constructive level is fine of course.

    Naturally, like you said, any conversion can never maximize Racer's potential and thus never reach the same value, for representing Racer, as a guide for others in the community, etc. like a scratch made Racer specific vehicle or track. In that sense, you might be right in saying it slows Racer down.

    The other side of the story is that Racer is not just nice graphics. It's a car simulation, it's multi platform and it's free of charge. Whenever a discussion came up about the future of Racer, Cg shaders and the likes in the last two years roughly, graphics took centre stage. I also enjoy beautifully made content that looks fantastic and more than keeps up with commercial titles in this regard, but Racer is much more than that.

    Whether you say ATi is to blame for poor OGL support or whether Ruud just chose a method to progress content that blocks out large parts of the community is pretty meaningless if you look at the result of it. That is, no matter if somebody has rather old hardware or just invested in the "wrong" brand recently, they not only get locked out of Cg, CSM, etc. but all new features and bug fixes. I've said that before, but with all eyes on the graphics side (pun intended), it's obvious that many of those that are annoyed by "anti-Cg" comments don't seem to realize this aspect.

    Even if you accept that your hardware won't run things in the same shiny way that your buddies rigs can, you still can't drive online with them. You still get to deal with the outdated tyre system, the plainly wrong suspension length definitions, don't get the choices of differentials, engine braking, tyre damping, fuel consumption, collision detection, sound updates...

    This is one thing holding Racer up, in my opinion.

    Besides, when I asked Ruud why there isn't simply a main switch in the options/racer.ini to turn off Cg features that would allow everybody, on all OS's and (reasonable) hardware to work on and progress with Racer - he said that it would look bad in old shaders. Well, I think that's is the smallest problem for the people affected by this.

    Honestly, if you load up a decent non-Cg track and car now, it still looks good. Not as good as Cg content can look, but right now, chances are it's less buggy and more elaborately put together. I'm just thinking about the fairly complex shaders endo came up with at the peak of non-Cg days. What is now possibly an automatic effect in Cg had to be brought in by hand, half a dozen of layers per material, extra speculars for each bit, fake 3D shading and glow and so on.

    That is not to say it's a good idea to cling to the old stuff by any means, but it shows that Racer isn't just about Cg. If you don't get the people onboard, you don't get the kind of content either. Again, I'm not as naive to believe that every "converter" would suddenly churn out top notch, scratch made content just because Cg is not a wall anymore.

    The other thing that is holding Racer up is how it becomes less development friendly with the kind of one step forward, two steps back approach the recent betas seem to have taken. With old features suddenly broken and new ones undocumented, half implemented and then abandonded - it's hard to just find out what's going on, what's causing all the issues we have when setting up cars, or trying to find the right flag settings for our skies.

    To sum up, Cg vs non-Cg: Cg no doubt, but with a switch to get Racer back on track and the community together on the same level again.
  13. Very nice impartial view of the things, cosmo. You are my another reference, like Sam Jigga.
  14. KS95

    RACER Moderator

    Exactly! I don't know many.... or any converters who take 2 hours or even 2 days to convert something, certainly not for Racer. Also, we release conversions with permission only, without they're not going anywhere. It's the authors choice, therefore. And one more thing, since when do all conversions get more attention than non-converts? There aren't exactly many non-converts released often, but when there is, they do get the attention...

    And that's all I need to add.. ;)
  15. My opinion and experience here.

    I think my opinion here, even though carefully about who will get anywhere nenhum.I will not disagree at anyone and I think everyone here is right, because what is life without goals.

    You know how long I've Racer in the community without ever once I get into projects and so on, just watching the people here making his fame and reputation? 2 ½ years I think. At the time that had an intel pc completely on-board and could not even run Projected lights. But okay, you know why? It took me about 2 ½ years saving a lot, because I'm 15 years old and study and paid dearly for this, as I dress, I have my parties, etc, because I am a teenager and do not live only Racer to spend, more or less, about R$ 3.000 to run the new games. Somewhere around U$$ 1,700.

    Specs? Quad Core, GTS250, 4 gb ram etc..

    But you know what gives me pain? Knowing that one day I've had a bad computer, and even so I stopped doing my conversions and try to learn from someone. When I arrived in rsc was"almost ignored by people" because I knew almost nothing. I've learned all alone. How many, people who are here have done their part in helping someone who LOVES cars and games to improve?

    The amgfan is one of them and I LOVE his job. Why not help those who make bad cars, or not run well on cg shaders to calibrate and convert them to cg? I try to convert to cg amg cars, because the conversions are very good it's right, I for example took me almost one month to try and make a ccx and he did it in 1 week ... perfectly.

    Here in Brazil is a popular download site in the Racer is with 2 million downloads and knew it could have much more? Because it has no cars in Brazil. The amg have friends who make cars in Brazil and it just converts. In my view this is not wrong, but I also know how long it takes the modeling process, improve the ini .... etc..

    Here is my indignation. For only I know how expensive it is to live, not everyone is rich, has great computers. But all I'm sure, who are here in the community has something in common: they love the racer and want to see the best of it, their cars, their tracks and their effort into it. ; D I love all of up anyway and I hope a more unified community and that takes knowledge to everyone. I also need it.
  16. I think the problem is that it takes lots of time to do a really good job of Racer content.

    For me that means by the time I get anywhere near getting things nice, then Racer changes again.

    This has been much more of an issue with some of the track elements recently, but the persistent small shader changes too, and odd physics bugs as well.

    A Racer final will be the time for people to work out what is the best way to build a good car or track at it's best. Right now even those who can do good work, are finding it hard to finish it because the goals are moving all the time.

    I could have made a fantastic car and track on the old shaders (ie, what my old M3 was released with), but the goals have moved since then a great deal, and still are moving :D

    It won't be long until v09 comes along and hopefully from then on Ruud can really try and step his changes that have a big impact slowly, because otherwise he may just destroy a whole new generation of content...
    BUT, we also need to build better content because good content can always be upgraded and look good (ie, Stecki's cars upgrade nicely still despite being 7yrs+ old in some cases!)
    Half of the effort put into these conversions will see them not so nice in a years time, because they are simply not built 'well' enough to integrate with future features. Ie, few are properly unwrapped for texturing so we can apply ambient occlusion data for ambient maps etc...

  17. what i honestly think is those who dont like conversions should honestly go start their fourm and rant at themselves about converters cause disrespect for awesome people like amg and splash will not be tolerated in my book these people who make these Awesome creations infact if it makes you feel any worse about yerself id rather drive someones shi%%^ conversion than a car you took time to make simply based on yer attitude cause these people who convert put a ell of alot more love blood sweat and tears into the cars than you will ever imagine it really makes my blood boil when someone slows blatant disrespect for someone who does this community a great service sometimes its bot about the model its about the ini and the fun of driving it are we soo caught up in eye candy we are missing the point of racer to begin with that tis ment to be a fun simulator where people could make a block of wood make it handle like an F1 racing car and give it huge monstrous sounds and feel good about them selves or someone who can take some of our favorite GTA cars and bring em to life in a more realistic manor in racer than gta allows for i mean honestly if you "other people" are going to whine and cry about conversions go elsewhere please you are Ruining the community not these converters its a shame we are bickering over shaders why doesent rud just make two version for petes sake as i stated i dont have the money to get a new machine and i still enjoy 0.6.3 id rather eat than get a new computer i mean its stupid to go on to offensive cause honestly we all have each others backs and you Will be chewed up and spat back out for flaming
    and disrespecting people well im done ranting im going to go back to being my quiet semi lurking self thanks for the chance to get my point made and have a good one everybody
  18. KS95

    RACER Moderator

    Hmm.. taking into account what you've said, maybe it's time for a converter specific forum? Since it's pretty clear there are a few here who do not really like the converting process, for private and public.

    Maybe it's just the safest idea?
  19. The truth is few members since rsc cant support the idea a converted car can has excelent quality than scratch one. I lose my count how many times I saw criticism about cars which isnt scratch made only to use in racer. I can catch now the "best"cars in racer, made from scratch, and find a couple of problems, unrealistic handling, poor sounds, but i wont. Cause i know someone did an effort on it. Well, cars in GTA is scratch made too, but made to work in another game. I still dont looking where is the problem on this. As Cosmo said, it is a simulator of car, not a renderer championship, or NFS fame gallery.

    As my friends says, haters, I love you, you keep me motivated.
  20. Awesome amgfan to see they aint getting you down Dont worry we got yer back no whineing babies are gonna run off awesome content creators like you splash and all i say we should grab pitchforks a few torches some shotguns and form an angry anti whining baby lynch mob Xd if not lets just have a seperate release and wip thread for converted cars than scratch made instead of a seperate fourm totally its stupid to think they are running us off from our fourm course i still say we just squash this rebellion right here and now show the haters uprisings against the estabilishment will not be tolerated lol but im sur e if its called for the mods will just swing the banhammers and restore order i still say dont let em run us from our fourm let the mods move em over into their own area where they can whine and cry all they want and one tought for you to digest haters is Howlong does it take to create a scratchmade car Look howlong it took for the concept competeion if we waited around for scratchmade wed all be playing with a lambo and nothing else XD so take that stuff it in yer pipe and smoke it