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Eckhart von Glan · Jul 18, 2023

Comparing iRacing to other games makes little sense if you ever bother to actually read their terms. A more fitting comparison would be the local gym where you pay your monthly fee to get basic access and then pay more e.g. for special lessons with a coach or for use of the sauna or whatever. But none of the gym stuff is ever yours just as iRacing says up front that none of the digital stuff you download to your harddrive is yours. It says that they let you store their software on your harddrive for exclusive use with their online service and that they will protect their software from you with encryption even on your harddrive. It's all out in the open, whether you ethically approve of such a model or not is a different cup of tea. I think giving people a "free" game and then letting you pay small sums below your awareness threshold to be able to play it better is ethically far more concerning.
Oh, and btw, the thread is about these MICRO transactions ...
just saying

pai · Jul 18, 2023

Richard Wilks said:
It doesn't matter what you have, and not, its not my definition, it is THE definition.

If you dont use something by your own perrogative, that is one thing. If you are PREVENTED use of something you bought if you dont pay a fee that's another. It doesn't matter if its not "hidden", that doesn't make it right, legal, or anything. That's like saying that whoever got ropped into a cult, drug addictiong or gambling addiction is the one to blame, and the criminals that operate in such activities were just "offering a product".

I am sure their model could be shut down rapidly in many countries based on existing laws. It's just that as in anything, the people have to speak up against it, since corporations hold the power, and in this case in particular, iRacing operates in an industry that like i said before, is out of control and needs desperately to be regulated and accounted for, the same way that the gambling industry is.

But i don't hold it against you. Just like in my gambling example, i also dont expect a gambler to lobby for laws AGAINST gambling, even as he destroys his (and usually his family) life in the process, further fueling my point that control over this must come from above.

Honest question: what happens then with all the professional software used in the industry that works this way. IIRC, CFD software used for aerodynamics works with suscription, and it's an extremely expensive one.

Or the problem is just the pieces of content paid besides the suscription? It's important on this discussion where to draw the line.

Kingkoenig · Jul 18, 2023

Badwheels said:
Let's be realistic. If BMW can put subscriptions into cars so that features that used come standard are now paid for on a monthly basis, this is a no brainer for sim racing titles.

Please excuse my ignorance (I don't own a BMW and never shopped for one), but BMW owners have to subscribe to get some features for their car?

Richard Wilks · Jul 18, 2023

pai said:
Honest question: what happens then with all the professional software used in the industry that works this way. IIRC, CFD software used for aerodynamics works with suscription, and it's an extremely expensive one.

Or the problem is just the pieces of content paid besides the suscription? It's important on this discussion where to draw the line.

Well that's where we should not be going, subscription based models for anything are a sure way to leverage power completely away from costumers and onto corporations hands. We can reduce this to the point that your computer wont even boot because you didnt pay the monthly windows subscription, or what about an extra fee to even boot your phone every week?...

pai · Jul 18, 2023

Richard Wilks said:
Well that's where we should not be going, subscription based models for anything are a sure way to leverage power completely away from costumers and onto corporations hands. We can reduce this to the point that your computer wont even boot because you didnt pay the monthly windows subscription, or what about an extra fee to even boot your phone every week?...

I'm not saying that it would be the right thing to do. I guess the key phrase is "holding assets you bought from you". You shouldn't have your PC hostage of a suscripted OS (same for a mobile phone), you shouldn't have the DLCs you paid behind another paywall, etc. I don't think you can just outlaw suscription software, but the line must be drawn somewhere.

Johnr777 · Jul 18, 2023

Metla said:
Selling you something you don't get to own or keep possession of certainly fits within the definition of a scam as I understand it.

Its using the initial purchase as leverage to extort ongoing payments without end.

So, there's that.You are of course free to view it in any way that make sense to you, But I'm happy with scam.

So any membership service is really a scam then. Gotta make sure I cancel my gym membership so I’m not extorted further!

Johnr777 · Jul 18, 2023

Richard Wilks said:
It doesn't matter what you have, and not, its not my definition, it is THE definition.

If you dont use something by your own perrogative, that is one thing. If you are PREVENTED use of something you bought if you dont pay a fee that's another. It doesn't matter if its not "hidden", that doesn't make it right, legal, or anything. That's like saying that whoever got ropped into a cult, drug addictiong or gambling addiction is the one to blame, and the criminals that operate in such activities were just "offering a product".

I am sure their model could be shut down rapidly in many countries based on existing laws. It's just that as in anything, the people have to speak up against it, since corporations hold the power, and in this case in particular, iRacing operates in an industry that like i said before, is out of control and needs desperately to be regulated and accounted for, the same way that the gambling industry is.

But i don't hold it against you. Just like in my gambling example, i also dont expect a gambler to lobby for laws AGAINST gambling, even as he destroys his (and usually his family) life in the process, further fueling my point that control over this must come from above.

Have you read the terms and conditions of an iRacing membership? Bold claims you are making out of assumptions.

The way you and Metla seem to label membership services as “unethical” if you don’t get to own whatever it is that you are paying for… is quite comical.

While some of the more bizarre examples out there can be a head scratcher, such as the BMW or Audi or whatever one that makes you pay for heated seats… sure. But at the end of the day, you should be reading the Terms before that signature goes down on paper.

Richard Wilks · Jul 18, 2023

Johnr777 said:
Have you read the terms and conditions of an iRacing membership? Bold claims you are making out of assumptions.

The way you and Metla seem to label membership services as “unethical” if you don’t get to own whatever it is that you are paying for… is quite comical.

While some of the more bizarre examples out there can be a head scratcher, such as the BMW or Audi or whatever one that makes you pay for heated seats… sure. But at the end of the day, you should be reading the Terms before that signature goes down on paper.

The terms and conditions dont make something legal, or even morally defensable. Again, you are blaming the customers for bad business practices and lack of regulation of said practices.

Like i said in the example above, soon you will be paying to boot your PC, and the alternative will be to not boot it at all. But sure, you can read the terms and conditions, before paying your subscription fee to microsoft...

I mean you payed for the OS right? So why should you not pay microsoft monthly? Or every time you boot it even?...Its the same with iracing right?

Richard Wilks · Jul 18, 2023

Johnr777 said:
So any membership service is really a scam then. Gotta make sure I cancel my gym membership so I’m not extorted further!

You are mixing things, either willingly or ignorantly. One thing is to access a service provided by someone or something who is either maintaining a space, paying for infrastructure, or lending their time to you. Another is you payed for a product and can't use it unless you pay more. Or in the case of photoshop, (and soon any software, mark my words) pay monthly for a product that was developed and was finished, and whose bulk of the features are readily accessible to be used, with no maintenance associated. And no "further developments" don't count, because if the product works of the box, and you are restraining access to it, you are holding your customers software hostage, and if the product doesn't work without future patches, then you are false advertising and selling a non working product.

Again, i can reduce this to the absurd, and force you to pay a subscription for a lamp that i sold to you, and unless you pay me monthly, it wont turn on. Thats what not being able to use the software you payed for at least offline is. There is no real reason for you not being able to drive iRacing content offline, except them holding the content hostage until you pay.

Again, a subscription to use the live service? Fine, that entails infrastructure. But not being able to use it offline? Not good no, and possibly illegal in many places.

Johnr777 · Jul 18, 2023

Richard Wilks said:
The terms and conditions dont make something legal, or even morally defensable. Again, you are blaming the customers for bad business practices and lack of regulation of said practices.

Like i said in the example above, soon you will be paying to boot your PC, and the alternative will be to not boot it at all. But sure, you can read the terms and conditions, before paying your subscription fee to microsoft...

Who else is there to blame?

Company:

- Offers a membership service for a stipulate fee for base content, and prices the add-ons you may purchase access to.
- Provides the terms and conditions of its service.

Customer:

- Accepts the terms.
- Becomes a member of the service.

OR

The customer doesn’t accept the terms, or doesn’t agree with the subscription pricing / value and moves on to another platform or service.

I’m failing to see anything unethical, or criminal like some have been suggesting?

Richard Wilks · Jul 18, 2023

Johnr777 said:
Who else is there to blame?

Company:

- Offers a membership service for a stipulate fee for base content, and prices the add-ons you may purchase access to.
- Provides the terms and conditions of its service.

Customer:

- Accepts the terms.
- Becomes a member of the service.

OR

The customer doesn’t accept the terms, or doesn’t agree with the subscription pricing / value and moves on to another platform or service.

I’m failing to see anything unethical, or criminal like some have been suggesting?

So you think victims of cults, piramid schemes, or other "clear" "business" or otherwise commercial practices are to blame? They also signed up for it willingly have they not?

Also, are you conveniently ignoring all i said about not being able to use the iracing content offline, even though YOU PAID FOR IT?

Its very simple. Either all content is for free, and you pay to have access to it and drive online (not ideal, but at least reduces all to the subscription fee) or you allow people to use the content YOU PAYED FOR whenever they want offline.

Johnr777 · Jul 18, 2023

Richard Wilks said:
You are mixing things, either willingly or ignorantly. One thing is to access a service provided by someone or something who is either maintaining a space, paying for infrastructure, or lending their time to you. Another is you payed for a product and can't use it unless you pay more. Or in the case of photoshop, (and soon any software, mark my words) pay monthly for a product that was developed and was finished, and whose bulk of the features are readily accessible to be used, with no maintenance associated. And no "further developments" don't count, because if the product works of the box, and you are restraining access to it, you are holding your customers hostage, and if the the product doesn't work without future patches, then you are false advertising and selling a non working product.

Again, i can reduce this to the absurd, and force you to pay a subscription for a lamp that i sold to you, and unless you pay me monthly, it wont turn on. Thats what not being able to use the software you payed for at least offline is. There is no real reason for you not being able to drive iRacing content offline, except them holding the content hostage until you pay.

Again, a subscription to use the live service? Fine, that entails infrastructure. But not being able to use it offline? Not good no, and possibly illegal in many places.

“Possibly illegal in many places”… come one man. I wanted to give your arguments the benefit of the doubt. But this is just making stuff up.

If the contract you are agreeing to STATES certain restrictions, well guess what? The customer will need to adhere to them, no? That would include paying for the light in your light bulb if that’s the term.

Tar Heel · Jul 18, 2023

Gevatter said:
Those whales are consumers as well, and all the blame is to squarely be put on the consumers in this case. If people rebelled and boycotted (like is currently still mostly the case with NFTs in games) then companies that want to earn money will not use those things.

A company will try anything to make a profit. Sometimes the try to hop on a bandwagon, and it may work or it may fail, but the only ones who have a say in this are the customers.

Well R3E is still alive and well charging extra for their car liveries, so yes we are.

That is such an over simplification of this issue and for you to even argue companies are also not to blame because their only motive is maximizing profits is EXACTLY why regulations exist in other industries are 100% necessary.

What you're arguing is akin to blaming people for dying in car accidents decades ago because auto makers didn't have the same safety requirements they have to meet today or that seat belts were not required. Sometimes regulations are necessary even if it is to protect dumb people from themselves.

Tar Heel · Jul 18, 2023

Johnr777 said:
Please clarify on “to stop these things is for regulations to be put in place”

Stop what exactly.

I don't even know why I'm responding because you clearly are not willing to have a good faith discussion, but I'll spell it out and leave it at that.

I'm talking about regulations being implemented to prevent the gaming industry from continuing to take advantage of people with predatory practices like the video discussed and from having it spread and become more prevalent in sim racing.

Johnr777 · Jul 18, 2023

Richard Wilks said:
Also, are you conveniently ignoring all i said about not being able to use the iracing content offline, even though YOU PAYED FOR IT?

I’m not ignoring it, because what you are saying is not in the terms and conditions of the membership I signed up for. I was well aware I would not be able to use the service offline or outside of my membership term.

You are having a hard time with this for some reason. I know the word subscription is also associated with money, so it’s easy to just assume that money out of your pocket = ownership. Maybe you have a simpler way of thinking about all this… it’s tough, but you’ll get there

Richard Wilks · Jul 18, 2023

Johnr777 said:
“Possibly illegal in many places”… come one man. I wanted to give your arguments the benefit of the doubt. But this is just making stuff up.

If the contract you are agreeing to STATES certain restrictions, well guess what? The customer will need to adhere to them, no? That would include paying for the light in your light bulb if that’s the term.

In my country that is for sure illegal yes. You cannot prevent the customer who PAID for a product from using it as he sees fit, if he is not accessing to infrastructure or facilities that entail costs. Doesn't matter if its written in a contract, i can make you sign a contract that will give me the power to take away all your money when i see fit, for no reason whatsoever. Guess what, that is illegal, because it is not a good faith transaction, and therefore, that contract is not worth the paper it's printed on.

There are laws and regulations for a reason. Contracts have to respect them. It's like you never worked for a company, a company can't make you sign a contract that makes you work 80 hours a week if the limit by law is 40.

Richard Wilks · Jul 18, 2023

Johnr777 said:
I’m not ignoring it, because what you are saying is not in the terms and conditions of the membership I signed up for. I was well aware I would not be able to use the service offline or outside of my membership term.

You are having a hard time with this for some reason. I know the word subscription is also associated with money, so it’s easy to just assume that money out of your pocket = ownership. Maybe you have a simpler way of thinking about all this… it’s tough, but you’ll get there

You are being obtuse on purppose. What part of YOU CANNOT USE THE CARS AND TRACKS YOU PAID OFFLINE you don't understand? You paid for these pieces of content, iracing is installed in your machine and can run offline just fine, the only reason this doesn't happen its because they PREVENT IT unless you pay the fee.

You will get there eventually.

Johnr777 · Jul 18, 2023

Richard Wilks said:
In my country that is for sure illegal yes. You cannot prevent the customer who PAYED for a product from using it as he sees fit, if he is not accessing to infrastructure or facilities that entail costs. Doesn't matter if its written in a contract, i can make you sign a contract that will give me the power to take away all your money when i see fit, for no reason whatsoever. Guess what, that is illegal, because it is not a good faith transaction, and therefore, that contract is not worth the paper it's printed on.

There are laws and regulations for a reason. Contracts have to respect them. It's like you never worked for a company, a company can't make you sign a contract that makes you work 80 hours a week if the limit by law is 40.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

But show me the law then. Tired of you saying it’s illegal this and illegal that.

Let me read actual proof that software subscription in your country, must be available without an internet connection.

Otherwise, this is another one of those endless loops of you claiming you know more.

Johnr777 · Jul 18, 2023

Richard Wilks said:
You are being obtuse on purppose. What part of YOU CANNOT USE THE CARS AND TRACKS YOU PAID OFFLINE you don't understand? You paid for these pieces of content, iracing is installed in your machine and can run offline just fine, the only reason this doesn't happen its because they PREVENT IT unless you pay the fee.

You will get there eventually.

It’s called a membership.

Do memberships such as Netflix, Amazon Video, etc exist in your country? Or are they all considered illegal operations since you have to “pay the fee” to watch your favorite movie?

Richard Wilks · Jul 18, 2023

Johnr777 said:
You are comparing apples to oranges.

But show me the law then. Tired of you saying it’s illegal this and illegal that.

Let me read actual proof that software subscription in your country, must be available without an internet connection.

Otherwise, this is another one of those endless loops of you claiming you know more.

I didnt find from my country, but i found from Brazil, the law clearly forbids a company to sell something, and withold what they sold unless you either buy or pay for something else, EVEN if that is written in the contract of course. They give the example of a bank who forces you to have a credit card or something else to open just a normal account, or forcing you to pay the instalation of a product, when you only want said product and want to install it yourself, or use it as you see fit after the purchase:

5. Venda casada

As empresas não podem vender um produto ou serviço mediante a compra de outro. Chamada de venda casada, a prática é definida como crime contra a ordem econômica e contra as relações de consumo, segundo os artigos 6 e 39 do CDC, e o artigo 36, §3º, IX e XVIII, da Lei nº 12.529/2011.

É o que acontece quando alguém se vê pressionado por um banco a contratar um cartão de crédito, um seguro ou título de capitalização para abrir uma conta corrente. Ou quando uma loja de móveis exige que uma pessoa pague pelo produto e também pela sua instalação, quando na verdade ela pretende apenas comprar o bem e instalar por conta própria.

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