rFactor 2 | Early Access Look at the New BTCC Content

MadDriver11 · May 10, 2022

RichardHessels said:
Any idea what the cost of making a brand new engine is?
Why do you think studio's use Unreal Engine or Unity?

UE isn't a simracing physics engine. It's got to slow a tick rate for cars' physics. That is why ACC is using it only as umbrella (graphics, I/O etc) for their own physics subroutine.

vee10 · May 10, 2022

British Touring Car Championship content and no way to run a championship in game.

Brilliant!

Amanda · May 10, 2022

MadDriver11 said:
UE isn't a simracing physics engine.

Yes. As you mentioned, you can plug any physics system into Unreal Engine. It's what Kunos did for ACC, and it's regarded as the best physics in the GT industry by many real-world drivers.
rFactor's GT cars on the other hand.... ;-)

davehenrie · May 10, 2022

Lazarou said:
British Touring Car Championship content and no way to run a championship in game.

Brilliant!

rF2a is a 3rd party app that will track a championship for you along with seemingly dozens of other bits of data collection.

[REL] - rFactor2 Log Analyzer ver. 2. With offline and league Championship Manager

rF2 Log Analyzer ver. 2 Manage your rF2 (or rF1, Automobilista) xml log files. Detailed exportable session reports. Track records collection. Hotlap...

forum.studio-397.com

Wreckoning · May 10, 2022

I’m happy enough with the new content but I like how RF2 drives anyway so not unexpected.

Had a couple of issues though.

I hadn’t gone with the Release Candidate that this build is based on so the first problem is the upgraded sound seems to have come with a reduction in menu options. I race pretty much against AI only but due to the problem with them needing to go off and on the throttle constantly to go around a corner I have the AI engine sound turned down low as the constant blipping drives me nuts.

Engine sound level for other cars no longer seems to be a seperate menu option, it seemed to keep my original settings on first boot but after a restart the sound balance is completely wrong for me and nothing in the menus helps a great deal. Anyone know if this can be fixed in player.json or other config file?

Also after much fiddling with the seat distance/tilt I got my cockpit view setup on the new cars only to have it reset after restarting. Thats happened twice. Not a major problem but it is a pain in the backside.

MadDriver11 · May 10, 2022

Amanda said:
Yes. As you mentioned, you can plug any physics system into Unreal Engine. It's what Kunos did for ACC, and it's regarded as the best physics in the GT industry by many real-world drivers.
rFactor's GT cars on the other hand.... ;-)

Not falling into the tribal war of the sims. Just worth noting a couple of things.
With the umbrella (UE) ticking at slower rate than the physics something gets mandatory left behind no matter how good you smooth out the "communication" between one system and the other. By the way, ACC physics was just recently upgraded to 300Hz (or was it 400?) while for example other systems like Madness Engine run already at 600Hz since 2014. UE is anyway far far lower than those values to my knowledge.
Secondly, I would suggest not to fall for the marketing bubble from certain developers of who has more real life drivers in their billboards for advertising, because drivers racing in the same GT class have given different appraisal of the situation. For example David Perel (who I understand also sells ACC setups) says nothing is like ACC, but Daniel Morad says ACC GT3s are horrible especially the braking being totally unrealistic according to him and he likes more iracing (though he seems to be mentioned quite often in iracing Facebook account). They both drive GT3 cars IRL.
So real life drivers aren't in agreement with each other and often are most definitely not "unbiased". You draw the conclusions.

Amanda · May 10, 2022

MadDriver11 said:
Not falling into the tribal war of the sims. Just worth noting a couple of things.
With the umbrella (UE) ticking at slower rate than the physics something gets mandatory left behind no matter how good you smooth out the "communication" between one system and the other. By the way, ACC physics was just recently upgraded to 300Hz (or was it 400?) while for example other systems like Madness Engine run already at 600Hz since 2014. UE is anyway far far lower than those values to my knowledge.

Last I checked, rFactor 2 has a base physics of 400 Hz, but some parts can run at higher frequencies (the TGM tire model itself being 2400 Hz IIRC). I'm not sure how the tire physics connect with the rest of the physics.
ACC has it's physics set at 400 Hz.

But, as with anything in life, bigger/faster isn't always better. I honestly don't care about "but herp derp mah physics runs faster" if the result isn't great. Don't get me wrong, rFactor 2 feels great, but the physics results are obviously wrong for many cars, specially GT. Just watch any alien and you'll see what non-biased users/drivers are talking. David Perel himself himself said:

- rFactor is letting us down. It's a drift sim, and you always use hacky setups. You always run the lowest tire pressure, you almost always turn off the diff, you almost always run the softest springs and softest dampers, you almost always disconnect the ARB's.. so to me, it's lost touch".

And these "hacky setups" have been there ever since I first played rF2 in 2017 and most likely were there from the sim's inception.

ACC, on the other hand, is the only sim that made me actually care about e.g. tire pressure. On rF2? Nobody really mentions it, while on ACC everyone cares to be on that very narrow window of 27.3-27.8 PSI.
ACC is, right now, the only sim where I actually care about every single click (literally!) on the setup and how it may affect the car's performance.
On rf2? "Meh, just turn the tire pressure down, springs/dampers to very soft, ARBs pretty much detached, even the rear wing can come down a lot as well".

MadDriver11 said:
Secondly, I would suggest not to fall for the marketing bubble from certain developers of who has more real life drivers in their billboards for advertising

True. I know very well not to fall for this, specially since the any iRacing fiacos over the years, even with the billboard drivers saying the game's not that great (while on the billboard they said it was the best thing ever).

But on the case of ACC vs rF2, one must only watch a few videos to know that rF2 actually is a "drift sim".

Ryan Soucy · May 10, 2022

stickdeath1980 said:
That ‘Touring’ bundle cost the same as the base game lol

But with that bundle, you get a real championship mode with the Official BTCC rules set.

Hold on. Phone's ringing.

(wait....what's that?...really?)

Nevermind.

gianlucaP · May 10, 2022

Amanda · May 10, 2022

gianlucaP said:
I guess this drift sim shows up only when using these extreme setups.

Seems to be an alien strategy: "if the sim allows it, we're drifting".
rF2 used to be a really good all-rounder, with all cars. Most mod cars were great too (this is what we had for GT3 at the time). Take a look at my own lap comparing me to a real driver. Surely the setups are a bit different (mine is a bit more tailored to higher top speed) and our way of attacking the corners are a bit different, but there's no sliding/drifting anywhere.
This was with an older rF2 build, older tires, old mod.

Now, in contrast, watch this lap and specifically the corner at the time where the video starts. That was a mild example. Check out the same corner on another video, which was on the official 24h of LeMans event. And on the same video, watch 45:01. Or just the entire video

It doesn't make sense that he'd go fast while sliding, but that's how rF2 works nowadays.
(Interesting to note as well how he massively overrevs the engine while braking. This has been a complaint of mine for a while, it's so unrealistic it made me reeeally mad xD). Glad it just got fixed recently.

And to contrast those rF2 laps, watch this extremely fast ACC lap.
There is no question to which sim behaves more realistically.

And before someone calls me an ACC fan:

tr1v1um · May 10, 2022

gwp2112 said:
All ACC DLC together, it costs less than rF2's Q2 pack, it's literally a Robbery. No way am I going to buy a DLC for the price of a full game, these people are sick.

This is a perfect example to showcase what's wrong with the sim racing community. It would have been robbery if somone held the bullet on your had and forced you to buy it. But that isn't the case, so maybe just eh ... skip it? What's sick is that people want to have everything for free and that they think that business model XYZ can be transfered for any sim available. Can you drive BTCC cars in ACC? Can you actually drive anything that isn't a goddamn GT3 or GT4 car or anything that isn't a modern GT car? Nope, so suck it up and accept that there are people who want to dive with a muscle car or mid 80s Indycar down the Corks Crew at Laguna or that there are people who don't want to drive cars that are bopped to death and appear in every good damn sim. People need to embrace the luxury of having a choice and that they aren't forced to be tied to games like ACC till the end of time, because that would be freakin boring.

Amanda · May 10, 2022

tr1v1um said:
so suck it up and accept that there are people who want to dive with a muscle car or mid 80s Indycar down the Corks Crew at Laguna or that there are people who don't want to drive cars that are bopped to death and appear in every good damn sim

He does have a point, though. Surely nobody's forcing anyone to buy rF2 content...... except if you want to join an official rF2 practice server, then you must own all tracks/cars that will be driven in the future: https://steamcommunity.com/app/365960/discussions/0/3175603565754661108/

"Welp, our official server is now at Indianapolis with Indy cars.... but let's force everyone who wants to join the current race to buy all the content we have planned for this server for the next 2 months".

And that is on top of the super high prices of their DLC.

Not even iRacing is that abusive.

To me, everyone should model themselves after Raceroom: no matter how many cars there will be in the server, you only need one car (the car you'll be driving) and the track.
But Kunos has always been kind to their customers as well, always releasing good quality content for cheap. For the price of one rF2 car you used to get 5 cars and 1 track in AC, or 5 cars now in ACC.

v4v474 · May 10, 2022

RichardHessels said:
Any idea what the cost of making a brand new engine is?
Why do you think studio's use Unreal Engine or Unity?

Unreal Engine apparently not adequate for hardcore simracing as it has a lot of latency.
It should be good evidence of that, Kunos having selected to develop a new proprietary engine for Assetto Corsa 2 and ditching Unreal...

v4v474 · May 10, 2022

Amanda said:
He does have a point, though. Surely nobody's forcing anyone to buy rF2 content...... except if you want to join an official rF2 practice server, then you must own all tracks/cars that will be driven in the future: https://steamcommunity.com/app/365960/discussions/0/3175603565754661108/

"Welp, our official server is now at Indianapolis with Indy cars.... but let's force everyone who wants to join the current race to buy all the content we have planned for this server for the next 2 months".

And that is on top of the super high prices of their DLC.

Not even iRacing is that abusive.

To me, everyone should model themselves after Raceroom: no matter how many cars there will be in the server, you only need one car (the car you'll be driving) and the track.
But Kunos has always been kind to their customers as well, always releasing good quality content for cheap. For the price of one rF2 car you used to get 5 cars and 1 track in AC, or 5 cars now in ACC.

It's how ISI created the "package system" which is at the base of rF2, so it's not something that can be changed, certainly not from one day to the other.
In any case, notwithstanding the fact that there are cheaper games, until the introduction of the BMW M4 GT3, you could buy ALL GT3 cars for €13,00 during Steam sales (50% discount), which is basically the price of a single car for iRacing.
Track packages also have been made available with significant discounts as well as car/track combos, so it's a matter of patience and wait for the right moment to buy.

And... hold your horses:

1 month of SUBSCRIPTION in iRacing, even when subscribed in bulk (for instance one year in one go) costs WAY more than 1 car on RF2 without discount (€4,99).

MadDriver11 · May 10, 2022

Amanda said:
Seems to be an alien strategy: "if the sim allows it, we're drifting".
rF2 used to be a really good all-rounder, with all cars. Most mod cars were great too (this is what we had for GT3 at the time). Take a look at my own lap comparing me to a real driver. Surely the setups are a bit different (mine is a bit more tailored to higher top speed) and our way of attacking the corners are a bit different, but there's no sliding/drifting anywhere.
This was with an older rF2 build, older tires, old mod.

Now, in contrast, watch this lap and specifically the corner at the time where the video starts. That was a mild example. Check out the same corner on another video, which was on the official 24h of LeMans event. And on the same video, watch 45:01. Or just the entire video
It doesn't make sense that he'd go fast while sliding, but that's how rF2 works nowadays.
(Interesting to note as well how he massively overrevs the engine while braking. This has been a complaint of mine for a while, it's so unrealistic it made me reeeally mad xD). Glad it just got fixed recently.

And to contrast those rF2 laps, watch this extremely fast ACC lap.
There is no question to which sim behaves more realistically.

And before someone calls me an ACC fan:
View attachment 565890
View attachment 565891

Not sure you really got my suggestion since you immediately took Perel as the bible.
ACC has its own quirks and flaws and its own share of unrealistic points at all levels:
1- Optimal tire pressures are fixed for every axle of every car, in every track, in all track temperatures. This actually says to whoever understands car dynamics that there are layers of tire simulation that are completely ignored. Temperatures have pretty much no significance in ACC, the only parameter that seems to have an impact is pressure which is also well known to be exactly the opposite from any engineering paper produced by any university on the matter
2- As Morad pointed out: as opposed to real life, in ACC braking means stomping the pedal as hard as you can and almost all the way to the apex, letting the "magic" ABS do the work. This is against the real world physics and the real driving practice
3- There was and there still is an abnormal (magic?) advantage in having max toe in the rear of the car
4- Suspensions are a black box where dampers have weird effects not only on turn in but also on overall grip in long stable corners which has no real world link
5- It seems the fastest way around Monza and the likes is setting a positive rake on the car. Basically having the front of the car higher than the rear. Apart from Indycars at Indianapolis I don't think there is a road course where this is used, especially on non-wing cars with a huge bottom enclosed area like GT3s.

The list could go on, but this is just some of the most egregious physics "liberties" that ACC decided to take, some of which are not exactly secondary.
So back to the point: every sim has significant flaws and shortcomings, don't fall for the marketing bubble.

v4v474 · May 10, 2022

Wreckoning said:
I’m happy enough with the new content but I like how RF2 drives anyway so not unexpected.

Had a couple of issues though.

I hadn’t gone with the Release Candidate that this build is based on so the first problem is the upgraded sound seems to have come with a reduction in menu options. I race pretty much against AI only but due to the problem with them needing to go off and on the throttle constantly to go around a corner I have the AI engine sound turned down low as the constant blipping drives me nuts.

Engine sound level for other cars no longer seems to be a seperate menu option, it seemed to keep my original settings on first boot but after a restart the sound balance is completely wrong for me and nothing in the menus helps a great deal. Anyone know if this can be fixed in player.json or other config file?

Also after much fiddling with the seat distance/tilt I got my cockpit view setup on the new cars only to have it reset after restarting. Thats happened twice. Not a major problem but it is a pain in the backside.

Set on Windows, RF2’s app specific volume to 100%;
In game, use the master volume slider (typically 35/50% should blast your ears with nice engine music);
Set maximum number of effects to 256;
Legacy settings: set Effects 50%, Onboard 80/100%, Tyres 60%

Wreckoning · May 10, 2022

Half the problem with a lot of these ”discussions” is that people want different things from these games.

I just want it to feel real enough and like I’m in a race

As someone who has no interest in online or hotlapping I just want a decent default setup to work and to maybe make a few minor setup changes to suit the way I drive. I’m not looking to “game” any sim physics limitations in order get a win or get the fastest laptime, if you’re only racing the AI its a bit pointless as you’re just fooling yourself.

We’re all running different kit, with a variety of setting preferences so it’s logical we have differing views of what sim suits us best. The way I drive and have things setup RF2 and AMS2 feels pretty close on the cars and tracks I drive and they are where I spend the most time. I also enjoy Raceroom although for me it lacks a bit of track “feel” (realistic or not) but it does offer some really good racing and variety. However I just can’t get on with ACC, for me its just a bit soulless and I’m lucky enough to have a rig that can run it maxxed out and a decent DD wheel. It doesn’t make it a bad game for the ones who do enjoy it.

If we’re honest none of them are truly realistic as we’re getting everything fed through a variety of different steering wheels. A big part of the “realism” is largely down to preference as to how all the non steering feedback is fed through the wheel and each of the sims deal with this differently.

Wreckoning · May 10, 2022

v4v474 said:
Set on Windows, RF2’s app specific volume to 100%;
In game, use the master volume slider (typically 35/50% should blast your ears with nice engine music);
Set maximum number of effects to 256;
Legacy settings: set Effects 50%, Onboard 80/100%, Tyres 60%

Cheers I’ll give that a go.

v4v474 · May 10, 2022

Wreckoning said:
Half the problem with a lot of these ”discussions” is that people want different things from these games.

I just want it to feel real enough and like I’m in a race

As someone who has no interest in online or hotlapping I just want a decent default setup to work and to maybe make a few minor setup changes to suit the way I drive. I’m not looking to “game” any sim physics limitations in order get a win or get the fastest laptime, if you’re only racing the AI its a bit pointless as you’re just fooling yourself.

We’re all running different kit, with a variety of setting preferences so it’s logical we have differing views of what sim suits us best. The way I drive and have things setup RF2 and AMS2 feels pretty close on the cars and tracks I drive and they are where I spend the most time. I also enjoy Raceroom although for me it lacks a bit of track “feel” (realistic or not) but it does offer some really good racing and variety. However I just can’t get on with ACC, for me its just a bit soulless and I’m lucky enough to have a rig that can run it maxxed out and a decent DD wheel. It doesn’t make it a bad game for the ones who do enjoy it.

If we’re honest none of them are truly realistic as we’re getting everything fed through a variety of different steering wheels. A big part of the “realism” is largely down to preference as to how all the non steering feedback is fed through the wheel and each of the sims deal with this differently.

Biggest flaw on RaceRoom is, in my opinion, the "glass smooth tracks" as the old rFactor 1 engine still shines below, specially since the fairly recent improvement on the FFB department.

Amanda · May 10, 2022

MadDriver11 said:
Not sure you really got my suggestion since you immediately took Perel as the bible.

That text was saved from an earlier version of the comment. I don't take Perel as the bible (heck, I don't even take the bible as the bible ;-) ).

MadDriver11 said:
1- Optimal tire pressures are fixed for every axle of every car, in every track, in all track temperatures. This actually says to whoever understands car dynamics that there are layers of tire simulation that are completely ignored. Temperatures have pretty much no significance in ACC, the only parameter that seems to have an impact is pressure which is also well known to be exactly the opposite from any engineering paper produced by any university on the matter

Temperature does have significance in ACC. Aris has explained this multiple times. To summarize: you can't really control the temperature of the tire while racing normally (unless you over/underdrive on purpose, of course). What you can have full control is the pressure, and, well, it matters a lot because that's the primary driver of the contact patch you'll have, which will contribute to temps (a bit) and lap times.
And temperature has a very negative impact on the car's handling when out of range.

MadDriver11 said:
2- As Morad pointed out: as opposed to real life, in ACC braking means stomping the pedal as hard as you can and almost all the way to the apex, letting the "magic" ABS do the work. This is against the real world physics and the real driving practice

For the brake inputs I've seen, ACC is really on point. I brake in ACC the same amount/duration as in rFactor 1 and it's children (Race07, GTR2, RaceRoom). It's in rF2 that braking is weird, you can brake a LOT later than I've seen real cars braking, it's like braking on steroids.

MadDriver11 said:
3- There was and there still is an abnormal (magic?) advantage in having max toe in the rear of the car

Yes, that's a known bug. Shameful as any other bug. Still not nearly the calamity that is sliding in rF2.
Have you seen the videos I linked?

MadDriver11 said:
4- Suspensions are a black box where dampers have weird effects not only on turn in but also on overall grip in long stable corners which has no real world link

This seems very speculative. I'd like for you to present evidence for this, i.e. comparing the MOTEC data from ACC to the same real-world car in the same track and while using similar driving techniques.

MadDriver11 said:
5- It seems the fastest way around Monza and the likes is setting a positive rake on the car. Basically having the front of the car higher than the rear. Apart from Indycars at Indianapolis I don't think there is a road course where this is used, especially on non-wing cars with a huge bottom enclosed area like GT3s.

I believe you meant a negative rake.

EDIT: Aris also explained this: https://www.assettocorsa.net/forum/index.php?threads/the-ferrari-488-gt3.58046/
Also also:

https://imgur.com/PezdRNo

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