PC1 why is the pCARS forum buried?

[Damage Inc]

Took me a while to find this forum. Was wondering why it's tucked away amongst "old" sims when it's very much a "future" sim?

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

Ohh David is here! Brb, fetching popcorn!

 

[museumsteve]

I guess this is why this thread is buried and why no one really comes here

Arguing about a word that has nothing to do with whether pCARS is good or not

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

Kjell, the problem is that thanks to the wonders of the internet and anonymity there's no politeness. There was a term created for web behaviour "netiquette", and sadly it seems to be none existent.

Says the guy without his name here...

If someone with minimal prior practise (just strong innate skill) does well in iRacing, without a lot of practise, then IRacing is simcade. (because if a game let's you go fast too early it's arcade)

And that iRacing doesn't simulate some things to a real level.

So I can go on the iRacing wikipedia site and change all references to "simulation" to "simcade".

I shouldn't expect some here to mind if I did that?

(not picking on iRacing per se, it's just the defacto top sim in a lot of eyes)

If someone needs to practise a lot to get fast in pCARS it's sim?

hmmmm I'm being quite facile there.

Nope, if Dale Jr comes to iRacing, sets the car up like he does IRL - and runs it like he does IRL, managing to make it just like IRL, that's not a thing that shows that the game is arcade.
However, if my roommate here, sits down, uses 2 hours, and nails the game, then something is not quite right.

iRacing don't... that is quite a problem.

Not necessarily, as iRacing is kinda provable that it is a simulation of the cars and tracks.

I haven't tried pCars, I never got the answers I wanted regarding the way you bought into the dev. of the game, neither on mail, neither in here when the man himself was here, and I couldn't ask it on the pCars forums, because I had to buy into it to be able to ask questions - fantastic.
However, it does seem like the game is lacking feedback, and on some of the videos I've seen, it have the GT-gravity.

Anyway, in reality, the game is closed alpha, the game is supposed to be closed (as long as you don't make great videos or praise the game). Because if that, there is no reason to have the forum up - the pCars guys have their own forum for talking about the game. Wait for it to be released, and then who knows what happens.

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

Just finished a session running the MP4-12C GT3 in four games, pCars, AC, R3E and iRacing. I'm sad to say that pCars still feels as lively as a roadkill. R3E is a step up, but I still struggle with some spongy steering here, not sure what's going on but it's been like that since after beta. iRacing had the most awesome sound of the four (AC sounds good, and maybe more natural, but I like my cars NOISY ), and the handling was top notch, I really love that car in iRacing! AC was no worse, it's hard to describe exactly why I like the AC version better, it's like it's slightly more nuanced than the iRacing version. I like em both, but AC one wins by a small margin. Talk about a car that is easy to drive but hard to master! So much fun!

 

[Justin Swan]

I agree, the handling with some of the cars in pCars is pure evil! I refuse to put any driving aids on, preferring to try and tame the beast lol. Some cars are OK and others, I dare not touch the gas or brake pedals
Yes, Yes, I know it's an alpha/beta or whatever stage its at but that's my comment (so far)

I'm only a junior member so I guess I'm not getting the try everything out also.

 

[Terry Rock]

wait? oh sorry I didn't realise that someone new coming to a site isn't allowed an opinion on previously discussed topics, I do apologise.

Obviously, you are within your right to discuss whatever you like. My comment is about all the in-fighting associated with this title. It's gettin' old.
Coming in demanding to know why the forum is buried without looking at the history and animosity of the past postings, is not a good way to start any new discussion.

 

[Damage Inc]

As I've said literally hundreds of times, one "should" judge a sim vs simcade game on the quality of it's physics and FFB, and this is where traditional PC sims have the edge by a significant margin.

I've got a whole bunch of PC sims loaded, and Pcars doesn't compare wrt physics and especially FFB....that said, last build, pcars did operate well with my wheel, but it lacked the quality of FFB to make it enjoyable or convincing as a proper sim.

I understand that, but there's a strong caveat. We have the judging criteria...fair enough, but then who's to say the other sims have it right? THAT is my point, they all have flaws. they cannot possibly fully simulate reality. All your post proves is that other sims fit in more with your personal expectations. Now if you have driven every car to the limits in reality I will back down immediatly. But if not then it's pure subjective. I realise it's an opinion to call pCARS simcade and fair enough, but what if someone came along and said "in their opinion" pCARS had the best physics ever in a sim game?

Now I'm pretty sure that a certain subsection of the pCARS debate would be here and arguing vociferously against that opinion.

So there you have the problem, the two extremes.

It's perfectly alright to criticise pCARS, but in a mature and measured way that can only improve the community, and not rip it apart with petty comments. Yet because a few are incapable of the maturity they bleat that SMS pCARS don't allow criticism which is a complete lie and that is a fact because there is a bucket load of allowed criticisms on the WMD forum.

edit I agree about pCARS FFB, I go from default to tweaks and it's still not at a place I'm fully happy with.

 

[Damage Inc]

Says the guy without his name here...

irrelvant, am I here abusing poeple using my anonymity? Or am I being polite and using netiquette?

Nope, if Dale Jr comes to iRacing, sets the car up like he does IRL - and runs it like he does IRL, managing to make it just like IRL, that's not a thing that shows that the game is arcade.
However, if my roommate here, sits down, uses 2 hours, and nails the game, then something is not quite right.

iRacing don't... that is quite a problem.

Not necessarily, as iRacing is kinda provable that it is a simulation of the cars and tracks.

I haven't tried pCars, I never got the answers I wanted regarding the way you bought into the dev. of the game, neither on mail, neither in here when the man himself was here, and I couldn't ask it on the pCars forums, because I had to buy into it to be able to ask questions - fantastic.
However, it does seem like the game is lacking feedback, and on some of the videos I've seen, it have the GT-gravity.

Anyway, in reality, the game is closed alpha, the game is supposed to be closed (as long as you don't make great videos or praise the game). Because if that, there is no reason to have the forum up - the pCars guys have their own forum for talking about the game. Wait for it to be released, and then who knows what happens.

Yes but iRacing doesn't fully simulate reality so for it to feel right there has to be fudges, it's just that iRacings fudges are (arguably) the best. That doesn't make it the most realistic, it's just the best at fudging. What's interesting and I presume you used the example becuase he's done it but did Dale Jr post identical times to reality using iRacing?

Also if Dale Jrs opionions are so relevant, why is Ben Collins opinions not?

Also would your roomate also be able to sit down and do the fastest time in a pCARS car? If not then by that argument it proves pCARS is at a reasonable enough level. Yes not as high as iRacing or AC or GSC, but that doesn't automatically mean it can be dismised as "simcade". (hopefuly there won't be some posts about "friends" being faster than light first time in pCARS from unprovable sources)

pCARS isn't for you fair enough, iRacing isn't for me, FAR too expensive, bang per buck is just not there and I'm not into multiplayer at all, don't have the time to organise my life around other people just for fun. That bugs me, but I'm not going to go on the iRacing forums and slag it off for not being exactly what "I" want.

Of course we also have the fact that iRacing is a finshed game and pCARS is not. And the cars change on a regular basis so it's hard to judge from the outside (which is unfortunate because of the games crowd funding system). All I can say is personally I think Asseto is better in many ways (but not all as it too is not finished), but pCARS is considerably better than the likes of Forza and GT.

 

[Damage Inc]

Just finished a session running the MP4-12C GT3 in four games, pCars, AC, R3E and iRacing. I'm sad to say that pCars still feels as lively as a roadkill. R3E is a step up, but I still struggle with some spongy steering here, not sure what's going on but it's been like that since after beta. iRacing had the most awesome sound of the four (AC sounds good, and maybe more natural, but I like my cars NOISY ), and the handling was top notch, I really love that car in iRacing! AC was no worse, it's hard to describe exactly why I like the AC version better, it's like it's slightly more nuanced than the iRacing version. I like em both, but AC one wins by a small margin. Talk about a car that is easy to drive but hard to master! So much fun!

Once again I have to question the judging, have you driven the MP4-12C GT3 in reality..at speed and pushing it to it's limits..if not then all your post proves is that iRacing and A/C conform to your percieved opinions on what the car should and shouldn't feel like.

Note I am not denying your opinion, you prefer the feel of iRacing and A/C. I too prefer the A/C version (can't comment on iRacings for reasons I state above). But that doesn't mean the A/C version has it right IMO. I've never driven that car!! I cannot possibly know how the car "should" handle.

 

[Damage Inc]

I agree, the handling with some of the cars in pCars is pure evil! I refuse to put any driving aids on, preferring to try and tame the beast lol. Some cars are OK and others, I dare not touch the gas or brake pedals
Yes, Yes, I know it's an alpha/beta or whatever stage its at but that's my comment (so far)

I'm only a junior member so I guess I'm not getting the try everything out also.

Agreed, some cars are not good. Some have improved markedly (for right or wrong reasons, I cannot possibly know. This is my opinion)

The game is improving all the time, but it also takes steps backwards. This is the thing called "development" that others seem incapable of understanding (not aimed at you I must stress!).

 

[Damage Inc]

Obviously, you are within your right to discuss whatever you like. My comment is about all the in-fighting associated with this title. It's gettin' old.
Coming in demanding to know why the forum is buried without looking at the history and animosity of the past postings, is not a good way to start any new discussion.

I have limited time (of which this is all taking up far too much but I like debates! (when reasonable)) so couldn't possibly read up on everything. I knew a small part of the history but didn't think that was a reason for the forum being here. But you'll notice that when someone postulated that it was because the game has a limited availability that I understood that could be a valid reason for the forums positioning.

I agree it's getting old for me now as well!! But when people say the game cannot be criticised or is regarded as being far to low and in an unreasonable manner then I do take umbrage and will defend the game against what I see is unreasonable behaviour by a minority. If we allow these people the power to close down a discussion by being unreasonable and having it decend into name calling then that is an appaling state of affairs IMO.

Do I think the mods and Admins could do more....in all honesty yes. There are a couple of members who crop up with attitudes that make some one unreasonable look like a saint!! Most recent discussion here seems very reasonable differences of opinion IMO (apart from one chap, but I reported his post and hopefully the mods noted it). If I'm found guilty of overstepping the mark then I will accept it and apologise to all. Hopefully I won't descend to that level, but I'm human and can be prone to a crude remark if pushed to it.

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

That bugs me, but I'm not going to go on the iRacing forums and slag it off for not being exactly what "I" want.

And yet, here you are complaining about that things aren't as you want it the forum is buried and people are using wrong terms when describing they don't like "your" game.

You can question my judgement all you want, I could not care less. I pay for my own games and will spend my time playing those I find give me the best entertainment the money, I'll share opinion on I like a game not, but unlike you i don't a problem with others having different opinions and/or choosing their wording differently. Sorry to say but I'll keep calling pCars a simcade, because that's what I think is and will remain. Enjoy your stay.

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

Bloody phone missed out on half of the words I wrote lol, cba editing it note though.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

I understand that, but there's a strong caveat. We have the judging criteria...fair enough, but then who's to say the other sims have it right?

Good point, and it's quite obvious that they can't all be the most realistic, but it's moreso the quality and detail of the FFB and it's fulltime connectedness with the car, of course, we only have controllers, so FFB and it's quality is important for the sake of immersion and controllability.

This is one of the major differences between PC sims and simcade racers, but as was also mentioned by another forumer, the ability to model weight transfer seems either absent or severely limited on simcade games.

Also, the thrust of your argument seems to be that it's all subjective and so no one has the right to define a sim, but if that's true, then your opinion that pcars is a sim is quite meaningless.

This forum has discussed the diff between sim and simcade for years, so it's not only not going away, it's actually BECOME a newly popularized term.

Just FYI, I'm also critical of AC, but to their credit, some of the cars feel and drive rather well, however, IMO, none of AC's cars can outdo any of the great sims cars from GTR EVO/GSC/Netkar/FVA etc, though it's possible that AC prefers a stronger FFB wheel like a T500 vs my G27.

Even Iracing seems to be getting it's tire model in shape, but it doesn't have the quality of FFB detail that many other sims have.
FTR, I think GSC 2013 to be the best example of a PC sim.

 

[Damage Inc]

And yet, here you are complaining about that things aren't as you want it the forum is buried and people are using wrong terms when describing they don't like "your" game.

You can question my judgement all you want, I could not care less. I pay for my own games and will spend my time playing those I find give me the best entertainment the money, I'll share opinion on I like a game not, but unlike you i don't a problem with others having different opinions and/or choosing their wording differently. Sorry to say but I'll keep calling pCars a simcade, because that's what I think is and will remain. Enjoy your stay.

Not "my" game per se. I'm a fan of racing Sims and more complaining here about the in-fighting...of which some terms clearly inflame. You want to use that term but are well aware others dislike it, that shows a lack of empathy to others feelings. Seems we have no more to discuss on the matter.

 

[Damage Inc]

Good point, and it's quite obvious that they can't all be the most realistic, but it's moreso the quality and detail of the FFB and it's fulltime connectedness with the car, of course, we only have controllers, so FFB and it's quality is important for the sake of immersion and controllability.

This is one of the major differences between PC sims and simcade racers, but as was also mentioned by another forumer, the ability to model weight transfer seems either absent or severely limited on simcade games.

Also, the thrust of your argument seems to be that it's all subjective and so no one has the right to define a sim, but if that's true, then your opinion that pcars is a sim is quite meaningless.

This forum has discussed the diff between sim and simcade for years, so it's not only not going away, it's actually BECOME a newly popularized term.

Just FYI, I'm also critical of AC, but to their credit, some of the cars feel and drive rather well, however, IMO, none of AC's cars can outdo any of the great sims cars from GTR EVO/GSC/Netkar/FVA etc, though it's possible that AC prefers a stronger FFB wheel like a T500 vs my G27.

Even Iracing seems to be getting it's tire model in shape, but it doesn't have the quality of FFB detail that many other sims have.
FTR, I think GSC 2013 to be the best example of a PC sim.

Good points, FFB is critical in my book too, but that depends on a lot more than just the game, and pCARS FFB is once again constantly changing and being tweaked. Hopefully it'll get better.

I call pCARS a "sim" based on the dictionary definition of the word "simulation" and "simulate" not on subjective feeling. Subjective feeling can only be used to state Sim A simulates better than Sim B, but both are simulations.

In that respects pCARS is a simulation of motor racing. Whether or not it is more or less accurate than Sim A,B,C isn't relevant. But again as you say that's my opinion, but I like to think I base my opinions as much on facts and not subjective feelings as I can.

Gotta get round to getting GSC 2013 I've heard nothing but good things about it.

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

Not "my" game per se. I'm a fan of racing Sims and more complaining here about the in-fighting...of which some terms clearly inflame. You want to use that term but are well aware others dislike it, that shows a lack of empathy to others feelings. Seems we have no more to discuss on the matter.

Ok.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

In that respects pCARS is a simulation of motor racing. Whether or not it is more or less accurate than Sim A,B,C isn't relevant.

Actually, the accuracy is critical to appreciating and defining a sim, of course the way this debate works is effectively based on subjective viewpoints, but it's the overall noticeable car behaviour and FFB delivery which "should" be the major criteria as that's the fundamental aspect of a driving/racing simulation.

For example, if we went to the bother of focusing on a few popular cars, we might be able to create an objective checklist of car behaviour from video's/books/articles, and based on that we could numerically score a sim, but what do we do if a major car behaviour component is missing or severely limited?

Weight transfer is a fundamental aspect of driving cars at speed, and it's because of that factor that smooth and precise driving can be required for either stability or tyre preservation, but the typical simcade game largely ignores this and allows one's reflexes to be more important than proper race driving technique.

Gotta get round to getting GSC 2013 I've heard nothing but good things about it.

An easy recommendation.

 

[Damage Inc]

Actually, the accuracy is critical to appreciating and defining a sim, of course the way this debate works is effectively based on subjective viewpoints, but it's the overall noticeable car behaviour and FFB delivery which "should" be the major criteria as that's the fundamental aspect of a driving/racing simulation.

For example, if we went to the bother of focusing on a few popular cars, we might be able to create an objective checklist of car behaviour from video's/books/articles, and based on that we could numerically score a sim, but what do we do if a major car behaviour component is missing or severely limited?

Weight transfer is a fundamental aspect of driving cars at speed, and it's because of that factor that smooth and precise driving can be required for either stability or tyre preservation, but the typical simcade game largely ignores this and allows one's reflexes to be more important than proper race driving technique.

An easy recommendation.

ok, but I have an issue with using ffb as a yard stick, not only is it subjective, but it depends on many other factors...drivers, game support for a particular wheel, even user settings. These variables will only muddy the waters and make it impossible to judge a games accuracy with that criteria. For it to be a usefull tool, then everygame should lock down it's ffb when they think it's "right" and say it only works with specific drivers and settings and not allow any tweaking of the ffb. But I really can't see a dev doing that as it would be very unpopular.

I agree a typical simcade game ignores weight transfer. pCARS isn't ignoring weight transfer though, so by your sub definition of what is critical in defining what game is or is not simcade surely means that pCARS isn't simcade? pCARS may or may not feel "right", but that is irrelvant, it isn't ignoring the issue.

At the risk of opening up an argument I'm also suspecting an issue with the labelling of pCARS "simcade". I'm wondering if there's a large degree of elitism related to the term. i.e. "IMO pCARS doesn't measure up to my personal favourite sim, so I'll downgrade it to simcade".

edit: downloading GSC 2013 to have a butchers.

hmmm edit 2, just noticed that clicking on "support" for GSC2013 sends me here!! Well I can't but help thinking there's bias for all the pCARS stuff, I thought this site was just a sim forum like Nogrip. Still I'm impressed with what content GSC has, should be good. I'll check out the forums and see what baseline settings I need for a CSR.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

ok, but I have an issue with using ffb as a yard stick,

It's not "the" yardstick, but it's clearly important especially as we only have controllers/wheels to judge what the cars doing....also, weak or low detail FFB always seem to be part and parcel of simcade games like F1 2010/Dirt3 etc.

As far as any elitism on my part, it's just my opinion and my preference, but I certainly don't change it to suit modern racing game marketing slogans.

RD is the official support forum for GSC, so yes, you'll always be directed here, but I found it to be fairly easy to set up, if you can set up any sim, you should be fine with GSC, but support is available here.

EDIT....noticeable car behaviour=physics.