What i think is not right with RRes physics?!

[Msportdan]

FINAL UPDATE!
hhhhmmmmmmm so i gave the DTMs on RF2 a try last night and just fell for them, so nice to drive feels natural nice FFB and weight in wheel.

Go ahead and i put RRe and it just feels wrong, (even with my new settings) the middle of the wheel feel loose/light and has no ffb. Its horrid.. Unless you have the wheel turned its just poor. Only way i can really cure this is turn up steering force, then i start getting the "auto" bloody straighten wheel assist or whatever it is. (possibly too much forcing the other way)

I have come to the conclusion (as apart from buying a new wheel) that this is a great game etc, but when played with another sim with better physics, you can notice it so much more. Its to a point its off putting.

Maybe a possibility of a minumum force setting? Well since not one dev has commented on it it must just be me, or im being ignored, it doesnt really matter as so many people think the FFB are bang on "ppffft" lol.

So for me there is STILL something that isnt quite right about RRe physics etc.... and until S3 fix this (floaty around the centre feel) ill stand by my OP, because ive given up searching for the "sweet spot"!
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ORIGINAL POST
I tried something on the way home in my car (f20 125i msport bmw rwd). Ive never really would say I practice sim driving on the road. I tried swerving left and right really quickly. Which is something ive been comparing in the sims im playing. I know this sounds silly, but I remember someone saying how good a set of physics are by, aggressively going left and right and see if the tyres slip (bite and slip ) as you get faster and more intense.

To my surprise (okay I wasn't do track speeds but its all relative) my cars was quite sharp on its front end, they front tyres felt connected to the road and there wasn't much roll in the car. (probs due to the msport suspension) only as I got faster did the tyres start to slip, but that is also 220bhp through the rear.

Anyway I got in and tried the Wttc bmw, which is a tad similar okay no where near but you know what I mean. To my dismay the race spec car felt horrid, it felt squishy on it front suspension felt quite numb up front, and felt like this was the road car.!! When you do the motion I was doing In my car you get a sort of a sway going, like a pendulum effect. THIS IS WHATS KILLING RRE FOR ME. many a times ive popped out of a slipstream and ive had this awrkward sway feeling. Sorry it feels wrong, You don't feel like your connected to the road the suspension doesn't feel responsive and confidence isn't gained this way.

So I tried another sim that im getting back into at the mo (excusing its dire AI) and that's AC. I popped into the BMW m3 (another similar car) and tried the old swerve down the Monza straight ... and there it was that felt like my car.. and it did. it felt responsive tyres dug and bit like a tyre under load, I could feel the suspension doing its work....and I wont lie it felt like I was driving my car, just a bit more of an expensive version lol.

obviously in both sims and in real life if I kept the throttle and swerving up I would end up in heading the other way. But in RRE its that transition between getting into the slide, and the feeling of that bite. The feeling of the front end on cars and suspension, just isn't felt imo in RRe. Okay setups could help, but it feels to far deep to fix purely by setups.

Look im not here to bash, its purely critism, that I think S3, if they wanted to could sort out and make this shine. You guys know im a backer of RRe..

 

[Andi Goodwin]

again physics + how the game interprets it and transfers to your ffb , how you have your ffb set up /which wheel etc etc etc : .... i get a pendulum effect on my wheel with my setup and ffb in r3e , but i dont get the motion feeling nor the vibration going through my butt cheeks , so im not sure ... same in assetto , i get some feeling , , in rfactor 1 also (using real feel/leos )

i just think half of it is finding the sweet spot to be honest

Andi

 

[Matej Lakota]

I wonder, how someone can disagree when man compares real car feeling on the road with different games ... and he just shares impression with us?

 

[Andi Goodwin]

maybe because that is his impression ?
maybe he doesnt find with his hardware in ac he has that feeling; maybe the same in r3e or other sims ... i dont know , but if someone has the right to give an opinion then shouldnt someone have the right to disagree based on there experience?

for me as ive said before ill never compare a real car with a car ingame until i have a rig capable of simulating all of the aspects of a car and ill never compare a car in one sim to a car in another sim , its impossible

Andi

 

[Msportdan]

sorry andi , but theres got to be some point that you compare it to a real car.

Arent that's why you play simulators...to simulate real life?!

 

[Peter]

I wonder, how someone can disagree when man compares real car feeling on the road with different games ... and he just shares impression with us?

Because I can and there is an option to disagree a post.
I don't share his opinion and I'm not surprised when I look at his ffb settings.

 

[Msportdan]

without sounding nasty but it doesn't make a difference, FFb cant fix the physics all it can do is hide them

but you do have a sector 3 rules sig, im going to expect you to be biast pete.

 

[Martin Edmunds]

The one thing i am going to say about this is.
FFB shouldn't be a maybe or if or try that and this.
Some car feels good, some i have to change or tone it down the ffb.
We need an official setting, endorse and recommended by S3 for each wheel on the market.

I currently have a t300 rs and i am always tweaking it, it feels great and on point but someone else will feel something different and that is where this title needs to be better. We need a T300 rs( or whatever wheel you have) selection and a recommended button.

 

[Heppsan]

Anyway I got in and tried the Wttc bmw, which is a tad similar okay no where near but you know what I mean. To my dismay the race spec car felt horrid, it felt squishy on it front suspension felt quite numb up front, and felt like this was the road car.!! When you do the motion I was doing In my car you get a sort of a sway going, like a pendulum effect. THIS IS WHATS KILLING RRE FOR ME. many a times ive popped out of a slipstream and ive had this awrkward sway feeling. Sorry it feels wrong, You don't feel like your connected to the road the suspension doesn't feel responsive and confidence isn't gained this way.

That you get more sway / pendulum effect in your car.
You don't think thats because it's just that, a road car?
I'm nowhere near an expert in the matter, but for me It feels natural that a racetrack car is stiffer than a road car.

Regarding AC I feel the exact opposite, I think they sway way to much!
I get more pendulum in AC than in my Saab 9-5 station wagon, even my dad's SUV sways less.. .

 

[Andi Goodwin]

you really believe your driving a simulator ?
Ok ill go back to a really old argument.
ive never seen mclaren or ferrari or redbull or any other racing group , tweet, post , etc that they are really really happy that they spent 50€ on the latest ac /r3e/rf2(public) game and how this is going to make all the difference , they spend millions .....
we are playing games with aspects of simulations , we dont in the most part have full motion sims connected to banks of computers , with complex calculations giving all aspects of aero /tyre/chassis

Its a game ; yes it does simulate stuff but to compare it to real life thats a step to far ; we can try and tune it towards real life , but as the sensory ;tactile stuff goes , it can be limited , its about balancing both the feeling and our expectations of that feeling , and as ive said sometimes we fall on a sweet spot were the compromises in every direction arent that bad , a tweak here and a tweak there ...; and after all of that its down to personal taste , saying i prefer this or that is your right; thats cool and im all up for it , but it is at the end of the day opinion , opinion based on your experiences in life and your interaction with the game and your hardware ; and im not you , i dont have your experiences ; i dont have your hardware etc etc ...

so if we are brave enough to state and opinion we must also be brave enough to accept that it is opinion and other people will differ or agree ; nothing is fact at this level

so there you go ; for me its a game with aspects of simulation , im in reality sat in a car seat thats not moving hanging onto a steering wheel that has no physical connection with the wheels , has no physical connection what so ever with a real car ... 1's and 0's and a lot of trickery

sorry to disagree , but thats it

Andi

 

[Connor Caple]

I've said for a while that I like the way the road physics interacts with the cars in R3E. I agree about the FFB changing your impression of the drive too.

For FWD cars I now increase the Lateral Forces from about 75% (where it works with RWD fine) to 130% and find it feels better, but I do have to increase the overall FFB level to feel more planted on the road and I have a chance at catching slides and spins. I still need more practice at that though in sims.

I spent over an hour at Monza with @Andi Goodwin this afternoon, talking me through his setup for a Honda Civic and it felt pretty connected - even though I was rubbish at trying to hit his braking points the way he does.

A couple of decent racers jumped into our server while we were practising and that gave us a few fun races to try the setup out. I got third in two races because three other guys got DQ'd and then quit but I did manage to hit some 2:02s in a car I don't normally drive (about 5 seconds off the aliens' pace) and had fun.

I still think the game has a lot of potential and I'm looking forward to further developments - remember, it's not even in Beta yet when we're playing online

 

[Msportdan]

okay fair enough guys. maybe im buying into this whole pc sim racing thing a bit too much and at the end of the day these are just video games..

Maybe ill feel better this way trying to not reach perfection out of my plastic wheel and pc..

could some one explain what these ffb settings do..

Steering rack?
Lateral?
Vertical.?

cheers

 

[Connor Caple]

From @Georg Ortner 's posts:

If you are driving a RWD car, then you might want to lower the lateral forces in the ffb menu a bit, and increase steering force + vertical load instead.
Once you will get to drive the FWD cars you will see though, why the default profiles have some lateral forces in there.

If you are not bothered by your wheel making a bit of noise (Logitech wheels in particular) then go ahead and set the smoothing to 0.

If you want to increase the feeling for oversteer etc. increase the steering force.
If you want to get more feedback from the road surface increase vertical load.

If you want to increase the stiffness around the center, try increasing the lateral force setting.

The Understeer setting defines how quickly the wheel will become light when understeering (loosing grip on the front tyres). You will feel this as well when locking up brakes for example.
By default it´s set to be linear (100% grip = 100% force, 0% grip = 0% force)
Reduce that setting in order to prevent the wheel becoming too light too quickly.

Lateral Force takes forces into account that effect the tyres from the side (horizontally),
as opposed to vertical load, that looks at forces that effect the tyres from below.

Steering Rack Setting defines how much of the lateral forces are being taken from the steering rack rather than the tyres.

How can we setup our ffb so that our forces aren't maxed so we have spare forces to apply to subtle road / cornering variations?

Decrease Lateral Forces and increase Vertical Load.
Also play around with Steering Force.

In my opinion FFB in driving sims need to do more than simulating forces of a real car´s steering wheel.
In a real car you get feedback not only from the wheel but from G-Forces, Pedals etc. that we simply miss when driving on a PC.
The PC Steering Wheel being the only haptic connection with the virtual car (unless you have a full motion simulator) should give you as much information about the car behaviour as possible.

My 2 cents

 

[Dan Allen]

maybe because that is his impression ?
maybe he doesnt find with his hardware in ac he has that feeling; maybe the same in r3e or other sims ... i dont know , but if someone has the right to give an opinion then shouldnt someone have the right to disagree based on there experience?

for me as ive said before ill never compare a real car with a car ingame until i have a rig capable of simulating all of the aspects of a car and ill never compare a car in one sim to a car in another sim , its impossible

Andi

How will you do that Andi? Do you have a spare £40k to invest in seats with actuators, buttkickers, huge curved TV's/projection screens?

He's making the best of what he's got, I say good on him.

 

[Andi Goodwin]

again , tweak it till it makes you smile ; if i listen to georg i dont like it , if peter looks at yours he disagrees ; yes there are ways you can really messit up but most if not all of them arent there ...

memot says he wants one version for each wheel ... hell no ...again opinion ,sensory input ,and your experience

in my opinion i make the best coffee in the worls (because i like it that way) my friend compares it to industrial cleaner that degreases the intestines ... again opinion and preferance ...

i dont want to drive someone elses car /set up/ ffb , i want to drive the one that my brain:hands/eyse can deal with and understand and that one is the one thats based on how i prefer it ... its not right its not wrong , it is though a fact that i prefer it the way i have it

Andi

 

[Andi Goodwin]

How will you do that Andi? Do you have a spare £40k to invest in seats with actuators, buttkickers, huge curved TV's/projection screens?

He's making the best of what he's got, I say good on him.

maybe read what i write before quoting me ?

Andi

 

[Dan Allen]

I believe I did, let me clarify further

for me as ive said before ill never compare a real car with a car ingame until i have a rig capable of simulating all of the aspects of a car and ill never compare a car in one sim to a car in another sim , its impossible

Andi

My point being, this is far beyond the reach of most people anyway...

Apologies if I sound rude, but I don't see the point you're making, which is why I said he's making the best of what he's got. All I can say is, thanks to games like AC & GSCE, I have become a better and smoother driver in reality, so I don't think these (bastardised versions of) sims are completely useless.

 

[Andi Goodwin]

i dont think your being rude , you have just taken one post that was more pointing towards the right of people to have differing opinions based on there different realities and different experiences ...
after that the ins and outs in my other posts were trying to define my reality and how i see these games , and without having the means to spend millions on a sim then how can you even begin to compare the experience to a solid object ,connected by four bits of rubber to a surface on a round planet spinning through space , you cant really , but you can give your opinion ;and people can and will disagree...

reality is based on experience , i dont own a wtcc car , i dont own a racing car ; i dont own a full motion zillion dollar industry standard rig ... at that point i would feel movement (but no real gforce from corners ) i would feel many more aspects that would bring me closer to the reality of a real car (again closer ... when people are asked about real simulators ,even f1 drivers ) they say yes it helps to learn a track but even with this level of hardware its not representative of the car in real life ... it gives the engineers models to work from when creating possible setups/aero packages

So there is no right and wrong , there is and always will be opinion ; and what is perfect for you maybe and quite possibly will be a nightmare for some one else ... we have seen this in f1 were people need a different steering rack/ratio/brake type ,wing settings to get the best out of the car ... why ... because no one is the same
ive seen people saying that in a game this car or that car is to stuck to the road (this is there experience of playing sims and how they have used previous cars : modelling/physics/setup /hardware ) and that it should be more difficult etc and then you talk to someone who in real life drives that race car and they say if it was that losse in real life they wouldnt drive it , that in reality the car is even more planted on the road

So im not having a dig at anyone,Im not judging anyone im just trying to say i dont believe that with the material we have and the games we play that there is anyway we can compare the 1's and 0's and pixels to a real racecar that very few people own (if any )

Im here to help anyone; just pm me ill do my best to help with setups, and try and tweak theffb to get closer to the reality you want ... just ask

Andi

 

[Vitaliy Budagov]

Do you guys know what particular FFB setting in R3E similar to "dumping" settings in AC ?
thanks in advance.

 

[Vitaliy Budagov]

dp