Hi guys,
I'm new on AMS2 (3 hours) but have a solid experience on RF2 and AMS 1 and the others.
Just would like to have your opinion, does the game offer way too much grip on the cars? I mean I can push the pedal to the max in middle and high speed curve and the cars seem to keep his rail.
On the other game I have to struggle a lot more in comparison.
I really have the feeling that the cars are simply "cheated" when I compare to the other games and for me it ruins a little bit the driving experience.
I do not want to compare it with arcade game but the grip of the cars does not require so much skill compared to RF2 / Iracing etc.
The F1 old and new or the Porsche cup are some examples.
For this last one the lack of ABS is so much easier to manage compared to Iracing.
It is a problem because AMS2 is based on PC2 ?
cheers
Hi man, 1.3 fixed a bug with the madness engine that apparently had them all scratching their heads since 2010 or something, its complex code. When you open up visual studio on your computer you may wish you didn't come to work, but also syntax sucks a lot. It may have been one line within 100s. This issue made grip worse, its true, but they took all that out of the ams2 stuff... so when they knew where to finally look from the guys on the forum or something, they were able to pin point it like a needle in a haystack. One equation or something.
To start on a high point I think you will find there is a reason ACC went with one class and one set of tables from data supplied; per track tables and systems, too they are, with the balance of performance thing nailing it tight, its largely accurate and a new game engine and it feels like it; they will be able to apply that may be to other classes over time. But that is not ISI motors engine, and ISI motor engines (1 and 2) might be going the way of the dinosaur in another ten years as its not getting the investment may be just now in gaming, not sure what they have in the works, at least in industry its probably being developed but apart from iracing it wouldn't be for gaming. Its long in the tooth for them. Now E.A is in on the act with owning the company behind madness engine you may even find the M.E going into industry like they kind of wanted at the beginning, to set the high standard. Some of those engines would find applications even if the market for them is shrinking. If its got value they will use it.
In AMS2 the grip is real in that a car does actually have a lot of grip but you probably stumbled across a bug, one of several or an incomplete car. I think the world of ISI motor game engines, ISI was revolutionary and it allows all kind of industrial applications, its rock solid... but you will note how when questioned by these grip facts the team at iRacing instructed drivers not to question the model of slipperyness and spinning out (a well known ISI derivative limitation) on tv despite the F1 drivers saying the game was harder than real life.... the truth is, outside a narrow band the simulation doesn't have 'an answer' to those values and we as humans can do nothing to alter the empty 'spin out' lack of grip space.... Its contact patch is narrow, the amount of usable road in something like early AC is very restrictive. And because they need to be high powered cars there is a disconnect with reality.
Speaking to that, ISI motor 1 and 2, etc, are great but we must remember the computing power available around the turn of the century, and on a single core. This is around the period the concept of the ISI engine was devised, and its wonderful in all it does. But they made a number 2, then more computing power and so on came, and then in 2005-onward they made the madness engine and it got rewritten etc, then SETA as a tire model, its still 'constrained' but it just does more. We must also remember how the steering is, too, it can be tight and unintuitive. The contact patch/grip can be very thin and even static; there is tire deformation in rf2 and that came into it, but it was also pre programmed, specific values, and it also trains drivers; but its not as interoperable as future systems would be. SETA and M.engine and AMS2 tackles the problem from the other end. And rather than make you seek the grip, it gives you the grip and you help shape the values...
Not as originally you thought: as good as other games are I explain it below, ISI motor derived game suffer from the tight inputs, as its a constrained system on purpose, to output exact results, but the grip in AMS2 is as you may expect.
These machines have a lot of grip, from all over the car - even side skirtings on average body kits from road cars are actually downforce.... You are actually
MORE LIKELY to crash into a wall than you are to spin out. Thats how much grip they have
Take Spa in the gameworld, its seemingly small. When actually in the world spa, that straight is km's long.... so when they spin out they go 50+ meters, 100s sometimes, in game in ISI you spin in circles or AMS1 or Rf1/2, you 'lose' the steering...no... its not fully like that. What they seem to be teasing out of this next level engine/concepts, are a greater variety of things. More is possible with AMS2 into the future. It allows for more things.
1 Some cars may be I did experience that at one point. But not now. Seems just about right. Remember to be fast on the gas and off it, fast on brake and off it, the game can really take a beating, so you will begin to appreciate the grip unless that car you tried was bugged.
1a try setting practice on light rubbering, then subsequent sessions on progressing. Or practice on medium rubbering. I always race late afternoon in case heat hurts my tires more. Temps play a big part in the game from turn to turn.
2 Then look at the correct(er) ffb settings I am using. I highlighted them below. If you have too much FFB it can seem like fake-grip. Or it could be one of the few bugged cars left. Track/car combos are also more important in this game, try metalmorow cars, p3, p4, p1 ginetta. Look at some of my setups below.
3 From a reality and gameplay point its better to have more grip as you can then do more with it, as in AMS2 there is a lot grip interacts with, and you will use it up over multiple laps. You will want to plan for at least one pit stop probably in a 20 lap race.
4
The concept of the drive-line slow down or elasticity. Go round the bend at nurburgring and hit it hard, then as you slow down naturally as you spin/turn around to face back up hill and the whole engine/driveline shaft slows down with you but its still propelling you forward until it runs out of inertia.
In ISI you would fly off the road, in AMS2 its almost self correcting or aligning even if its not fully stable. Only RSS F1 mods in AC 2017/19 etc do this, and they need extra tables to do it. So AMS2 is definitely in a good spot it may just need tweaking.
There are a lot more physicalised components, or a few more. The difference between a solid cube going round a track versus a bunch of cogs inside a large tin, one does nothing but move, the other rattles and clunks and it affects the trajectory. AMS2 is closer to that. Its also meant to be more visual in suspension if i am not mistaken.
So while I may not fly off the track like in ISI motor engines, the rest of my lap in AMS2 is ruined as the car (the gen 3 car 1 in this case) is unsettled and the tires are not as good now. It doesn't just continue on as if nothing happened. That is before I gave it 2 more rear spoiler points.
4b Knowledge. Don't worry too much, I am not an AMS2 fanboy but you will grow into the SETA tire model style....ams1 and rf2 are too thin for modern day driving... its actually more accurate to have a huge amount of grip then lose it, than trying to find it like in early AC or ACC, or AMS1, or any ISI motor derived game... those came about for their excellent, somewhat static tire models, SETA and AMS2 madness engine is more next level, beyond the horizon type stuff.
eg I took lack of grip car gen 3 car 2 (the f1s) to nurburgring, gave it two extra rear spoiler points, and it was sorted. Getting near the best mods for AC now. The 1.3 patch is a leap. More grip is actually normal. You would be surprised how grippy cars can be. Old ISI motor engines in games are constrained systems, SETA/AMS2/MADness engine are more interoperable and interactive. So you could be experiencing all these extra values you are not used to. Just discard them in your mind if you have to and drive it hard. Not all cars are finished though.
Long and the short of it, ISI motor derived games are great and all (and they will always be good for business purposes to company's to input values into or driver training; as you can standardize them so well, they are valuable commodities) however they are superseded somewhat in strict gaming as gaming increasingly blurs the line between sim and game, and their FFB and drivelines always suffered from snapping. Its very thin and the grip fall off is limited. I will explain why below, as it requires several cases and you might want to take it up with others who know more beyond that.
There is no simple answer except to say when you drive a car in real life like that, the engineers are doing a fine job, there is literally oodles of grip and cars weight a fair amount. Its just how fast you want to drive. Verstappen probably has a reaction time like a steel trap, the cars have tons of grip its how they use that. Also race-track drivers employed by tracks and teams who are not the f1 drivers can drive those cars fast around the track. Could they do it day in day out over a whole season probably not but you can drive fast too if you practice. There is lots of grip. The cars will skid before they spin out a lot of the time....
Use default ffb 66
gain, 20 27 0 dampening if you have a belt wheel. 10-20 if not. 30 camera in options and legacy mode, which locks to horizon, and 35 brake sensitivity. Just note the default+ introduces more clipping and I almost always use default profile non plus.
Gold standard in simming is the RSS 2017 f1 mod in AC with CSP (and that models look up table additions to braking etc etc etc), content manager and sol for its manoeuvrability, its grip and its KERS system implementation and its steering wheel... well before I say more, AMS2 is approaching this, albeit from a long way back, the above standard took 7 years to get to, AMS2 is developing quick though now.
And other types from RSS, usually they are all occupying the top spots among others for preference, but its objectively true....not plain AC, modded AC; its what AMS2 is driving at I think, a next level thing... Huge amounts of grip, but you try driving it fast to keep up with it. AMS2 and I am more real/negative than most, I can see it now, you will note how free moving and grippy that car is in AC, and how horrible some of the older AC cars are these days. AMS2 is doing something really good, the work it took to make that 2017 mod was extraordinary. Just 1 car, but they then did others. AMS2 has a chance I see now to bring that free flowing high grip to whole classes. The 2017 mod afaik uses a bunch of extra mechanisms that csp allows. Another was the dallara in AC mod, there's others, and none are thin-line driving, snappy cars. They moved 'beyond' ISI motors early limits.
You may be thinking there is a huge difference between 2017 RSS f1 in AC with csp and sol, at Road Atlanta, for example or monza, versus ams2, its true. But not easy to compare. Get more used to AMS2 you will probably like it. The truth is those mods come with a lot of tables internal to the mod, AMS2 is doing that within the engine so its going to take longer as a WIP. There are definitely car/track combos in AMS2 which get near that kind of thing and the game is only ramping up from here. The grip in AMS2 I think is a more 'real' way of interpreting grip from a high powered car. ISI engine derived like rf2 or AC in ways suffer from the setup being very arbitrary or abstract almost, so the AMS2 game/engine makes that better too. Also constraining or restrictive ffb usually such as RF2. Driving is still good, but I think AMS2 (the engine/SETA tire model) allows a wider range of good things.
I think what you are experiencing is different is the "physicalisation" of grip in the engine. In ISI motor derived engines, like Rf2, grip is just there and nothing attaches to it, its just a component or a bunch of values derived from a simulation, arbitrary, and its not physical as much as its a model. With
SETA tire model that all gets turned on its head. Its fatter and the grip fall off more gradual. It comes at things from almost the opposite end, and its more
interoperable, and
interacting. But you are going to want what seems like extra grip before long in the sim; its also some WIP going on too which I guess is just modern dev.
The truth is, look at a car, it has heaps of grip, the side skirts on the doors, the tires, the spoiler and front spoiler, the bonnet and shape, its all designed to grip, but in ISI motor engine is can be an ice rink or a snappy endeavour. Its not perfect. Cars are meant to have a lot of grip, and instead of snap, they should build up forces, and AMS2 is finally doing that. High grip is intended but work in progress. I will point out the cars and tracks and the setups.
gen 3 car 2 at nurburgring i just raise rear downforce to 8.
Gen 3 car 1 F1.... a good one, I change front camber to -2.8, power diff to 62 and coast to 50. brake to 61 front. as a quick setup at Kansai, and its really good for my driving style with that car. When you look at vids of the senna or was it nigel mansell (at brands hatch) or imola/monza driving the car he had it sliding and panning all over the place in tight turns, and the game shows that, but its still got tons of grip. The game imho only lacks in initial acceleration/velocity feeling. AC may not be able to do that kind of thing unless its an RSS mod with built in tables. Sometimes in AMS2 I lift the rear a few mm in case the back is slapping the tarmac but usually I leave it alone, brake 61 may change centre of gravity not sure in engine, but also if the rear is too high it may not have same air profile, so your mileage may vary. you can try to change it
Different F1s have more lively rears, so see what you like.
The way the cars work, in AMS2 like others is the first lap such as in the gen3 car 1 f1 is loose, but the next few laps firm up, then you are at peak grip, then it falls off. Setup can make tires last longer, but trust me, that grip you talk about can make cars sloppy in time, too or when the brakes are too hot or the tires have too much heat per turn to turn, so its better to have a buffer in AMS2, ISI engine games are different. I usually put the practice session on medium then subsequent on default progressing. The game also has some bugs in it still, but it holds up ok.
For this reason, heat, I cycle left on the wheel's d pad, until I see either the ffb profile meter, then with that one down once or twice until only the ffb graph is on, dont need usually the rest of the telemetry, or left more until the tire and brake, engine heat and condition graph turns up on the right.
The donuts thing is a shame but its not the end of the world. Some cars you can. 1.3 is good but its still tragic in several places, but its getting ahead as much as it pains me to say it, I am not the games biggest fan. But 1.3 is good enough as version 1.0 sad isn't it. But think about ISI snap braking and snap spin-outs. Its not good either. Or how in RF2 you turn the wheel wrong and there goes all your grip. The game wants you to drive a certain way and you are constrained within bounds, you just do not see that. Enough ratting on RF2 I will explain.
Secret for you of sorts - AC with CSP uses look up tables inside the models of the best mods such as RSS mods. ISI is rigid but ams2/seta/madness engine comes at it the other way. Madness and SETA was made during a period of time wherein they wanted to expand on that paradigm and add to it interactability inherent in the design, madness is also like ISI modular and extensible. To explain:
I like how there is that rubber-sliding sound in AMS2, its really good. Skidding is what cars do a lot, so forget the ISI engine kind of straight line no deviation thing. Think next-level RSS mod in AC with CSP... thats what AMS2 is doing, its just rough around the edges for some cases at the moment. Even RSS mods are slightly rigid (by design) yes you can get into the mode with them, but they are limited by the engine.
AMS2 is taking advantage of the smoothness, transition, etc. So it seems like its more languid ; someone would have to explain more on that front. Its not fully meant to be/would be...you would tune that out....
Like above poster, and I never said too much about it ages ago, but I knew - many did, the ISI motor engine is
far too rigid - its a
constrained system but
IT WORKS for 85% of things; and even then those 85% are awesome/great, worthwhile. And when they sell it for other application purposes, those guys can plug in their numbers and it spits out repeatable, solid, physics, etc results. But yes it is limited in some ways. Doens't need to equal bad. But in games braking is rigid, and turning sometimes too.
To this day AC (probably with patches) and indeed RF2 the technical version not the game version, are used in training drivers and by race teams and other purposes, because it works and its great. Sans drawbacks. Which they mitigate.
I think you will find AMS2 and SETA and madness engine is trying to work for 100% of things.
You might need to tune a couple of things. (for changing we eliminate all but two cases, so we go down .5 incrementally and if that does not work in camber, you would go down .2 instead, see?) Rear wing up sometimes slightly 1 or 2, then if not 5, often rear wing I do full up then go down until bearable; many ways to skin a cat.... , brakes to 61 front if heavy braking, power diff down a few ticks sometimes, or 10, get a bound then tighten it, or clutch plate take one pair off sometimes if 8 then make 6, see if it helps, camber down .5 sometimes on front. ARB not changing myself much maybe 1 tick up on back sometimes, often depending arb needs stiffening but I rarely change it - they have done a lot of work to the setups to make them better and more usable; it becomes clear where you need to go with it.
So work with one at a time and see if it helps. With SETA and AMS2 you want to tighten them up. With ISI I always loosen them almost. IF its a sedan with traction control you may want to reduce it somewhat if its getting in the way. Why?
What I know is that the contact patch and line of driving is much thicker than ISI and allows for more slipping. I know ISI is basically industry standard but SETA is solid now. Meaning to say I was told by a dev once somewhere that the grip falloff related to the above is thicker in SETA and madness engine.
It is true that ISI based engines are run in professional environments and need reproducible exacting standards, i.e RF2 engine/package for example is sold to businesses for their own purposes... and madness engine did indeed try to go for that too - but M.E has more depth to it, even if technically the outputs can be basically the same.
I think you will find you can input data into RF2 tyre model, and this is one of its benefits for gaining customers as they just buy it and input their stuff. Both engines essentially at the end of the day can get the same results.
I think that both are good you will find the M/engine is technically no worse off, but it might make gameplay a bit different to what you are used to. The cars in M.E it seems, the less worked ones rather than being undrivable messes so much are slightly more slippery.
You are also probably a better driver than you give yourself credit for. But ultimately the driving line you are seeking does exist in there, you may just find some drivable lines to the side of that you are not used to seeing.
The truth is that the M.E is probably going to eventually be better. I am not a sycophant by any means. I am overly negative but its definitely the case. ISI may be able to output results as one likes, but for games and driving the M.E actually allows for less rigid and more varied driving.
If I am correct then the ISI engine derived games suffer in that once you step outside the bounds you get spun out. I think you will find that technically in life - this is pertinently untrue. That does not happen on a road or track. To this end I can't speak 100% fully or correct as I do not know enough - but in AMS2 yes it seems more arcade or flubbery to begin with, but it should end up being more pleasurable to drive. The correct lines and movements do exist now.
Truth be told 1.3 is actually (its sad isn't it) version 1.0. They really need to deliver another 4 updates because what I am saying will be true at that point more than likely - the SETA model and Madness engine is actually poised to be a next level kind of thing now that bug in the driveline was fixed.
>>
IS IT as good as the AC csp enabled/enhanced
RSS mod 2017 f1 they do, or similar williams car maybe mod or some such? But rss 2017 f1 freely available... no, no way, but in a barebones way you can reach a point of good lapping with the AMS2 system.... but AMS2 is still really good. For what it is, its a good game. I never used to but now I find it more and more difficult to spend too much time with non RSS/others mods in AC. Between AC, AMS2, ACC, raceroom they really stepped it all up last 6 months. 2017 f1 rss at Nürburgring or Monza, or 2019/19/20 have them all, or the feruccio, shadow etc, sedans, great. many good tracks well ams2 is a little off that completedness; but its on its way and I dont want to cast shade on those others, but AMS2 with SETA may be the different-great type game alongside them easily. If they keep it up.
Grip in AMS2 is fine enough/different, potentially as good and better overall, but its WIP. The cars i mentioned might be ur best bet for this month.
