Cars VRC American Racing Championship

[Eck Simpson]

The car drives great, looks great in the showroom. When a track loads, looking in through the rear window, there's nothing there except the wheels.

I'd post a pic, if I knew anywhere to host them... I'm old 'n' infirmed.. please help..

 

[SunBro]

The car drives great, looks great in the showroom. When a track loads, looking in through the rear window, there's nothing there except the wheels.

I'd post a pic, if I knew anywhere to host them... I'm old 'n' infirmed.. please help..

You can click "upload a file" when replying. Your issue sounds very weird, a screen would def. help.

BTW i can't drive the car with h-shifter yet but it already handles like i expected with auto shift. The model and sound we already knew but glad to feel the handling. Looking forward to driving h-shifter next month .

 

[Qazdar Karim]

The car drives great, looks great in the showroom. When a track loads, looking in through the rear window, there's nothing there except the wheels.

I'd post a pic, if I knew anywhere to host them... I'm old 'n' infirmed.. please help..

I guess you are not using the shaders patch, we will gather more feedback and release an update as soon as possible .

 

[IMrIMike]

The car is great fun but the AI tends to flip over in some situations when driving over curbs.

That´s new to us, would you mind telling us at which track, which corners?

 

[Dave_6]

Only driven it at Riverside so far but it drives great and sounds awesome.

 

[LilSki]

Uhh sooo what's going on here?

 

[Qazdar Karim]

Nothing, do you any data on that geometry other than a picture of a reworked trans-am car?

 

[LilSki]

According to the original forum post it raced in 88/89 TA and IMSA races. And it's a pretty well known fact these cars had live axles, not independent rears. Could always try to reach out to that guy to see if he still has the car to get info from it.

I don't and never claimed to have the answers and I know AC live axle system can be wonky. But I would have thought it would at least try to use that instead of a completely incorrect independent suspension system.

I mean that forum post is literally about the car this car was supposed to be based on according to MHS on the first page.As of April he still owns the car and actively races it.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/organized-drag-racing-autocross/669671-camaro-road-race-car.html

 

[Qazdar Karim]

I have no idea about those geometries so I "model" a geometry with certain parameters that I define. Creating physics is not about "assembling pieces", you work with the whole and, trust me, there were so many unknowns with this one.
Whether it is practically doable in real life or not is none of my concerns in the absence of exact coordinates, nothing forces me to submit my geometries to the same constraints once can face in real life.
Predicting geometries behavior is not an easy task because the equations are quite complex, so I chose an easy shape to work with so I can have more control over what characteristics I want to have in them ... it's just a model, that's all you have to keep in mind, so don't worry about it.

 

[Dimitry Pappas]

Had a blast@Laguna Seca
need more pracc

 

[Ryno917]

Looking forward to giving this beastie a go!

 

[SunBro]

Had a blast@Laguna Seca
need more pracc

No you don't. Because 1:Those are audi's times. 2: camaro is 1988 audi is 1989

AUDI always had an unfair advantage over the other cars. Both audi 200 ta and audi 90 quattro gto.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to improve though.

 

[jlnprssnr]

trust me, there were so many unknowns with this one

But wouldn't it be a good starting point to choose the correct axle type then?

 

[F_B]

That´s new to us, would you mind telling us at which track, which corners?

To be fair, it was on two mod tracks. The one is Portland the other Road Atlanta.
Perhaps something with the ai line.

Will try them on official tracks also.

 

[gecco]

But wouldn't it be a good starting point to choose the correct axle type then?

Second that.
This car, or better, these type of cars (I believe) all had a live rear axle, and to now make the mod with what looks like a multi link suspension, is somehow really ruining the experience, and not authentic at all

 

[AlleyViper]

But wouldn't it be a good starting point to choose the correct axle type then?

Consider a scenario where a very customized DWB model can give more convincing results for their data (it won't necessarily behave like a "DWB" then). Physics modelers must also account for AC's live axle limitations (as fixed setup options vs IRL limited bend tricks). Out-of-my-league 0.02€ on this.

 

[Ghoults]

Consider a scenario where a very customized DWB model can give more convincing results for their data (it won't necessarily behave like a "DWB" then). Physics modelers must also account for AC's live axle limitations (as fixed setup options vs IRL limited bend tricks). Out-of-my-league 0.02€ on this.

For sure there are about 10x more limitations how well a dwb can simulate a 4 link rear axle than what ac solid axle offers. Sure the kunos solid axle implementation is weirdly limited (how can it make sense to release solid axle physics without camber or toe support?!). As for limited setup options we can hope that the shaders patch at some point gets those features in the game so things like panhard bar heights can be adjusted along with antisquat. Making solid axle using dwb suspension is more a of a hack you must do if the sim doesn't support solid axles at all (like it was before solid axles in ac) but if the sim does support them then there is no reason to put double a-arm formula ford suspension where the 4 link should be.

For sure a dwb rear suspension is better than 4 link for road racing and can make the car drive "better" but at that point it drives better and differently than the real car.

 

[chrisi2174]

Thanks for the great Car !

 

[elloLeo Kinnunen]

nothing forces me to submit my geometries to the same constraints once can face in real life.

I'm out of my technical depth here and heavily reliant on the expertise of others, but because of that fact and because it's a pay mod it would have been nice if you'd made this clearer. The car is lots of fun to drive and I'm sure that's the whole story for some people. But a big part of my personal enjoyment is simulation of real life racing cars not fictional ones. I hope you consider revising the physics if you get the chance.

 

[Dirk Steffen]

I think the discussion of what suspension geometry physics constraints have been used in a mod really should either stay off the table here or should be explained at full transparency of the mod maker as to completely prevent any misunderstandings.

The matter of the fact is that unfortunately the Kunos AC live axle suspension definition is highly limited and really unsuitable to be used in fairly modern race cars (that in real live had a live axle rear end).

The reason for this is that unfortunately the Kunos definition in AC does not allow for any simulation of camber and toe changes while also advanced systems as anti squat are not possible to be simulated as used in modern racing applications.

For this very reason a specific reason the Kunos AC DWB definition is a popular (and currently best use) option to work around the highly limited live axle definition in AC.
With such a specific DWB definition many behaviors of the real life cars rear suspension can be much better simulated.

It is a compromise - a workaround - a trade off and the mod makers surely have weighted the decisions of what is more important with the specific car here.

Personally I agree that on what is essentially a prototype race car of the late 80's features such as adjustable camber and toe indeed are WAYYY more important to simulate the actual cars behavior than the unfortunate loss of the real cars live axle cornering behaviors (yes, we loose those).
It is a trade off.

Without having looked detailed into telemetry data but from having spent perhaps only an hour racing teh car with a full IMSA GTO field at Mid Ohio and Riverside I can say I like the behavior - it is plausible.

From having checked past VRC mods regarding suspension geometry vs telemetry data I can say that decisions in suspension geometry design I could see sound reasoning and well made decisions.


What people who do not build car physics in Assetto Corsa do often misunderstand is that very often with exotic suspension systems (such as true multi link, semi trailing arm, live axle, etc ...) a workaround compromise using the DWB physics system is unfortunately the only tool we have in such cases.

The secret sauce is in the design of the DWB geometry combined with tire parameter definitions and suspension parameter tuning to achieve REALISTIC telemetry data and suspension behavior.
This means that in racing sims with limited physics definitions the most realistic suspension design for a given vehicle does not necessarily agree with the name on the tin of the suspension definition ;-)

What makes a good car physics builder in AC is the understanding of which of the different definitions can be used creatively to achieve closest possible telemetry results. It is not as easy as 1+2=3

Two critical points
I do have though regarding the mod although overall I am really happy using it:
1) please pretty please remove the sound loop on all new VRC mods "This sound is created by Mr. Mike for ..." It is very annoying and it does actually interfere with game play in AC as every single time when changing to a VRC car in game this loop is played (not just on session entering)

2) suspension settings is too limited and inconsistent in the menu choices defined by setup.ini and needs some refinement (namely addition of damper setup choices on these prototype cars and refinements of clicks and steps and setup windows in some adjustments such as but not limited to tire pressure, alignment and ride height related settings).
I am sure these can be easily refined at a later point namely when aligning the cars performance once its rival/s are finalized in the pack.

It would also be really nice if especially for these cars where in racing quite some panel rubbing has taken place the mod would make use of AC damage features (both vanilla AC texture as well as CSP features).

I am looking forward to the next car. It will be an insta-buy as well.