Using Physics to Determine the Honda Power Gap: Heusinkveld Explains

[ltcars]

Can you please stop talking about automobilista and AC and rf.

 

[Stanislas]

Melanie, we are all happy for you enjoying AC that much (which by the way, Kunos himself, discribed as SIMCADE while he was looking for funding) and just let us enjoyed ours stuff... just stop bothering us with stupid and childish arguments... It's even hard to belive you are a girl...
It's the general problem of the internet... every asshole got a speech they think valuable and they can spit their stupidness... unfortunately as loud as the cleverer speeches. Please go back on your console forum and stop tackling adults!
We have read your bullshit so/too many times... and everywhere!

 

[David Dominguez]

The Automobilista spreadsheet physics expert, as he even driven any of the cars that are in Automobilista, in real life, I guess not, been as he is a European, and Automobilista is a Brazilian game, with Brazilian cars. physics expert, physics Guru LOL fraudulent, how about you talk about the individual real life cars, that are in Automobilista, I'd like to hear your "expert" views on how the real thing handles.

Totally agree, like those fraudulent F1 engineers who pretend to know about F1 without having driven any of their own cars, bah.

 

[David Dominguez]

Wouldn't call it a troll. The Brazilian V8's in AMS are like, three seconds faster than the real life pole time at Velopark.

As per your own article, 2.3s is closer to 2s than to 3s.

 

[Chris]

Calm down chaps, you're so sensitive, just rocking the boat for fun.

Oh... Okay, then. So your behaviour for this entire thread was literally just to stir up the community. Nice one.

I'll leave the thread open as some people seem to be having some genuinely interesting things to add to this, but since you're just here to troll (and you've been on incredibly thin ice lately), you can take a holiday.

 

[Ghoults]

Did you estimate the drag coefficient with drs open or closed? Also I'm not sure how descriptive the top speed is of engine. Both in wec and f1 the teams do all they can so they can dump all the battery power at the beginning of the straights to maximise their acceleration. Not top speed. This makes drs interesting because once you open the drs you probably want to keep pushing out energy from the battery whereas if your drs is closed you probably get better performance if you use that energy on some other straightaway.

Also I was kinda expeting to see some analysis on corner speeds to quantify the downforce levels.

Another thing that is different between the engines in f1 is how good they are at harvesting energy for example. This means that in races honda can't harvest as much energy which means they have less energy to spend. In 2014 ferrari had big issues with how the car was difficult to drive into corners because of the combination of braking and engine braking made it difficult to get predictable handling while still getting maximum harvesting. This all makes a huge difference during a race.

 

[Boby Kim]

Wouldn't call it a troll. The Brazilian V8's in AMS are like, three seconds faster than the real life pole time at Velopark.

Ehm...and?

 

[Yapci]

Did you estimate the drag coefficient with drs open or closed? Also I'm not sure how descriptive the top speed is of engine. Both in wec and f1 the teams do all they can so they can dump all the battery power at the beginning of the straights to maximise their acceleration. Not top speed. This makes drs interesting because once you open the drs you probably want to keep pushing out energy from the battery whereas if your drs is closed you probably get better performance if you use that energy on some other straightaway.

Also I was kinda expeting to see some analysis on corner speeds to quantify the downforce levels.

Another thing that is different between the engines in f1 is how good they are at harvesting energy for example. This means that in races honda can't harvest as much energy which means they have less energy to spend. In 2014 ferrari had big issues with how the car was difficult to drive into corners because of the combination of braking and engine braking made it difficult to get predictable handling while still getting maximum harvesting. This all makes a huge difference during a race.

I really think that the vid is a very "simple" way to determine how the gap is, with simple plain data and not having in consideration lot of parameters and so. Is just like saying "well, there are other ways and other things that can influence, but with 150hp more Honda will get their top speed at Mercedes pace, or not".

Having seen his other videos, I just think that Niels is having fun with physics and sharing some of the "things that crazy engineers (this sounds redundant...doesn't it?) do in their spare time".

And he insists in the fact that he may be wrong, and that there are other things in the equation not taken in consideration... I just enjoy the vid and try to learn something from it. Didn't hope him to solve the Honda problem in an 8 minutes vid... although it could have been great

 

[Deleted member 113561]

The Automobilista spreadsheet physics expert, as he even driven any of the cars that are in Automobilista, in real life, I guess not, been as he is a European, and Automobilista is a Brazilian game, with Brazilian cars. physics expert, physics Guru LOL fraudulent, how about you talk about the individual real life cars, that are in Automobilista, I'd like to hear your "expert" views on how the real thing handles.

This time I agree with you - except for the fraudulent (insults are really not necessary)
If he would be a real life engineer in a high tier class like Formula 1 I wouldn't say much, but he isnt.

P.s. The bashing against you is typical Racedepartment - gonna report all personal attacks & insults ... a shame mods do not intervene earlier (must be a Premiumfeature...)

What does a general physics video have to do with Assetto Corsa or Automobilista? The equation to get power from drag and top speed is fairly simple, and it may give some insight to how much power one engine MAY be behind another one. This has nothing to do with any of the race sims we play, like or dislike or even personalities that we like or dislike?

It's not that simple, otherwise you would see the teams much closer together ...
Its not simply about numbers, its about accuracy, deepness (how much you simulate ie.), etc. and down to years of experience

 

[arniesan]

Wouldn't call it a troll. The Brazilian V8's in AMS are like, three seconds faster than the real life pole time at Velopark.

Not the way I drive 'em.

 

[wwav10]

Totally agree, like those fraudulent F1 engineers who pretend to know about F1 without having driven any of their own cars, bah.

F1 engineers get more than thousand sets of data per lap driven by the test driver. Do you really believe they never driven their F1 car before the actual GP?

 

[David Dominguez]

F1 engineers get more than thousand sets of data per lap driven by the test driver. Do you really believe they never driven their F1 car before the actual GP?

Same thing can be said about any sim developer getting feedback from real drivers.

 

[Niels_at_home]

I've said multiple times, I am not Reiza! I am PART of Reiza and Renato is as much responsible for the physics as I am.
Automobilista, just like all sims, is the result of the best effort put in by passionate people. No sim is perfect and no sim will ever be!

I've also said multiple times that I very much dislike being called a 'guru' or 'expert', because it is just a hobby that has gotten out of hand. I always state clearly that mistakes are made and being wrong is not uncommon. Paul Jeffrey did it much better than some, calling me a physics engineer in the article, which is something that I indeed seem to be! And that is just a name, there are good and bad engineers, so you may put me in either corner, that is fine!

So in this tread nobody mentioned 'guru' or 'expert' until Melanieuk used them. I understand some people create a view of somebody and simply stick to it. If you insist on creating an image of a development team or individual and sticking to it, well there is nothing I can do is there?

How hard is it to start a conversation on the forum to find out what the individual is really like so you can form an opinion based on that? If you have no desire to put even the slightest effort into this you do not deserve to be taken seriously.

And, even if you hate Automobilista or Niels Heusinkveld, Power = Drag * Speed^3 which is a rough and simplified way to get some idea of how much power you would need to gain 16km/h. This may partially hint at the gap Honda has. Sure there are 1000 reasons and complications but it was never claimed to be exact..

 

[wwav10]

That's a interesting theory, The test driver in the F1 team is the integral part of the development process. I believe its a bit more difficult for sim developer.

 

[Leynad777]

The Automobilista spreadsheet physics expert, as he even driven any of the cars that are in Automobilista, in real life, I guess not.

I don´t know as well, but the cars/slick-tyres in Automobilista IMO feels the most immersive and natural in physics. I don´t know how many times i hit something in AC and thought: That´s BS and would never happend in the real car. In AMS i quite always think: Oops, my fault. But road-tyres nowadays seems better in AC, to be fair.

Wouldn't call it a troll. The Brazilian V8's in AMS are like, three seconds faster than the real life pole time at Velopark.

In AMS you can shortcut the last chikane with some sort of Scandinavian flick if you are lucky. They don´t do it in the real cars. And when i see the last race, the cars seem kind of slow compare to DTM-races. Maybe they lowered the performance for this track with air restrictors or something.

 

[Rob]

Hopefully Honda will still grant Reiza license of their cars in the future after seeing this video
We have a girl in our office who has been a huge Alonso fan for 10+ years. At first we troll her and joke about the GP2 engine all the time, and now we just can't do it any more cuz it feels so shameful to do so McLaren Honda plz sort things out fast.

This is CRAZY talk. Lol.
I think Honda is doing just fine. I have never seen Fernando happier. In fact, I think he'll win a race this year in a Honda. And boy that's going to light the world on fire. So this software dude. Hmmm.

Still funny stuff, though. Good article.

 

[P*Funk]

The Brazilian V8's in AMS are like, three seconds faster than the real life pole time at Velopark.

Every sim is faster than real life because in real life they spend one weekend a year at most tracks in variable conditions and sim racers can spend 10 000 laps getting a perfect lap time in perfect conditions if they want.

If they're so inaccurate then you wouldn't have actual Brazilian Stock Car drivers driving them who incidentally berate the developers when they screw something up, like when they ruined the shifting I believe. Apparently there were a few rough emails from actual drivers for that one.

 

[Ghoults]

Spreadsheet physics expert must be one of the dumbest bunch of words cobbled together ever on a sim racing forum. Spreadsheets literally exist only for couple of reasons. First it stores all your equations so you don't need to get your calculator everytime you want to check something. And you don't need to calculate everything every time manually. Secondly it stores the results and can be used to visualize the results. It is also used to convert real life numbers and values into the kind of values the sim uses. Maybe the spreadsheet can even output a text file for your sim.

But the main thing is that everybody creates their own spreadsheets. To be able to do it requires understanding of the physical aspects that are being calculated. You can't just open excel and ask it what is the is front/rear downforce/lift balance on car X or ask it to plot a damper curve for you. You need to define all the equations, maybe convert from imperial units to SI units and find all the actual data you can get your hands. Calculate how the wings in different parts of the car sum up. Physics equations only guarantee correct results if you use the correct data and a fancy spreadsheet won't save you if you have no idea what is going on. Assuming that the math is correct behind all those equations you write in your spreadsheet.

A spreadsheet is something that is created by yourself and it only contains stuff that you have written for yourself. It doesn't do anything except the very specific thing you have written. To call someone a spreadsheet expert is a bit like calling a race driver a steering wheel and pedals expert. It misses the mark so much that it is almost adorable.

 

[David Dominguez]

That's a interesting theory, The test driver in the F1 team is the integral part of the development process. I believe its a bit more difficult for sim developer.

Of course it is more difficult for a sim developer, but as a game developer they don't need the crazy amount of accuracy needed as F1 teams need. My point is that a physics engineer (use whatever name you want) isn't "fraudulent" for not driving the real cars, that's a crazy thing to say. If they have the data, telemetry, feedback from people who has driven the real thing etc, they can make a very accurate version as well.

 

[RichardHessels]

Wouldn't call it a troll. The Brazilian V8's in AMS are like, three seconds faster than the real life pole time at Velopark.

Yes, party because we have optimum circumstances, track is not laserscanned and you can't die.