Understeer FFB weak?

[Mark Oates]

Long time Kunoz fan. Played Netkar, nkpro, Ac and now Acc. Never driven a real Gt3 car, but it's hard to imagine how ac and acc is SO very different in how understeer feels. I'd figure my Csw 2.5 is probably doing a decent job, but it just doesn't feel like I feel anything but a very very slight change in wheel weight when understeering. Is this really the way it is irl???

 

[tlsmikey]

They went for a much more realistic effect and as such a lot of the extra ffb that you got in AC is no longer there. I would try to drop the dynamic dampening to around 30-40% and see if that helps you a bit. There is definitely some understeer effect, but it is much more subtle and this was done intentionally.

 

[Mark Oates]

Meh... Some difference but not a lot. Feels like they went to far the other direction Imo, and road vibration drown a lot of it. It's funny the games really want you to not push and stay safe, yet the clear indicator of pushing is...well the tires actually pushing. Go figure. Anyway, thanks for the suggestion.

 

[robt100]

@Mark Oates From real life road experience (from regular..er....spirited driving on corners) I can confirm that understeer just feels like lighter steering along with the 6th sense that you're not quite going in the direction you intended. Which can be corrected with a bit of throttle in a RWD car, just don't do it on a damp road as you end up in a powerslide at a 70degree angle to the road

 

[RasmusP]

I personally don't have any issues feeling the understeer. For sure the steering is a bit different compared to other sims!
Comparing it to real life videos you can see that irl the drivers sometimes turn in about 90° while braking and the car basically does nothing. Then when they release the brakes, the car turns in perfectly.
For me, no other sim has the same, kinda weird behavior but ACC has this.
So the understeer feels differently but as I said, once you get to love ACC ffb, it's fine.

Took my about 20 hours pure driving until I started to really like it. At first, I disliked it a lot!

Anyway, since I'm on a CSW 2.5 like you, here are my settings:

Wheel:
- SEN = 900
- FF = 75
- SHO = don't have a rim that got the motors
- ABS = same
- DRI = -1 or -2
- FOR/SPR/DPR = 100
- FEI = 90 (100 is a bit too rough imo)

ACC:
- FFB = 65% (gives more dynamic to feel the grip limit)
- min force = 1% (I like some center position rumble)
- road effects = 3%
- dynamic dampening = 90% (it doesn't take away any details imo but gives some beefier feeling when going fast in a straight line. Calms down the wheel basically)

 

[Neilski]

I agree with what the others have said.
My suspicion would be that ACC is perhaps very realistic but that other sims (e.g AC) add some artificial effects to kind-of replace the lack of g-force sensation.
When I understeer in a real car, I feel it through the wheel and through my whole body. With just an FFB wheel, you've lost the g-sensation so you either replace it with something "fake" on the FFB, or you don't, and there are arguments to be made for either approach I guess.

 

[Mark Oates]

Well thanks for the replys and info gents. Thanks @RasmusP for your settings, ill give them a go.

 

[RasmusP]

I agree with what the others have said.
My suspicion would be that ACC is perhaps very realistic but that other sims (e.g AC) add some artificial effects to kind-of replace the lack of g-force sensation.
When I understeer in a real car, I feel it through the wheel and through my whole body. With just an FFB wheel, you've lost the g-sensation so you either replace it with something "fake" on the FFB, or you don't, and there are arguments to be made for either approach I guess.

Very true. Which is why I stopped using real head motion or "look to apex" options completely and would never buy a track ir.
You lost the g forces already, with a non-sticked camera position you'll also lose the optical feedback.
"Is it understeering/oversteering or just the camera moving? "
*spin or shoot straight*
"ah, not the camera..."

With a fixed camera (not talking about smoothing shaking with the various "lock to horizon" settings) your brain aligns the steering and pedal inputs with the movement you see on the screen. When you understeer the image will become slower, when oversteering it will become quicker.
And afaik the eyes are quicker than the hands.
Ears are the quickest but I'm not sure if you can hear understeer

 

[Ben Lee]

When I get understeer in my Audi, the wheel goes lighter but there is a mild vibration through the steering wheel. In that regard, AC has the most realistic feeling.

 

[robt100]

When I get understeer in my Audi, the wheel goes lighter but there is a mild vibration through the steering wheel. In that regard, AC has the most realistic feeling.

You may want to up your tyre pressures, the vibration is the tyre flex from being under-inflated!

 

[tristancliffe]

Also, that should only happen at massive understeer, when you've piled on way more lock than the corner and speed dictate. Understeer is a very subtle feeling and is indicated by a change in correlation between steering weight, lateral g-force and rate of yaw. This is approximated with visual, aural and FFB outputs, but it SHOULD be subtle.
Gone are the days when people think the steering goes really light with understeer (not sure why people thought that was the case?), but I think people still want the equivalent of a big neon Understeer sign when driving.

 

[Pawel Ziolkowski]

AFAIK large part of FFB weight depends on grip itself, so with street tyres that loose grip quickly past the optimum slip angle we feel the understeer clearly.
With slicks we loose less grip, and for me it feels like ACC went to 11 with reducing grip drop at higher angles. And IMHO that's why cars feel so playful, having little grip dropoff allows the setups to be balanced more aggressively than in AC and still remain stable / well behaved.
Now since FFB feel heavily depends on grip, less grip loss in understeer situations creates less FFB change. So to me it is down to tyre model physics.

I don't think there are any special FFB effects (besides the ones in game options) in both AC and ACC, so if somebody feels FFB is better in one, it also means that basic tyre physics are better in that one. Meaning that if it feels like ACC is right about car feel, it is also right about FFB and vice versa.

 

[Jivesauce]

For the people comparing it to the original AC, I wonder if they had the "enhanced understeer" effect box checked? That option is of course gone entirely in ACC because they wanted to move to a more realistic model and I always got the impression the developers sort of disliked people using it even in AC, even if it was useful .

Regarding the wheel feeling light in real life when understeering, I can only speak from the perspective of the relatively mild race cars I've had (E30 BMWs), but the only time you get a really light wheel when understeering is when you have locked your fronts entirely and are sliding straight off the track. If we're just talking about some push in a corner when you have overcooked it, that is a much more subtle feeling.

 

[RasmusP]

Reading your posts and thinking further about it, I think understeer feel for me means rather to feel that the ffb stays as strong or becomes stronger when you open the wheel a little.
Means when you're right at the spot where slight understeer is happening, the ffb stays the same no matter if turning further or opening it.

When you're not beyond the turning limit, the steering will become lighter when opening the steering wheel, instantly.

I have to say with a g27 it's very difficult to feel this as you can either go with "I feel the dynamic but honestly I don't feel anything be aude it's just too light overall" or "I don't feel the dynamic because my ffb is clipping and it sticks at 100% no matter if understeering or not.

Upgrading to the csw 2.5 opened a completely new world of feeling these things for me.
Most difference was feeling the aero working. Lot stronger ffb through fast bends compared to slow. Best to be felt around the Nordschleife in AC gt3s.

 

[robt100]

Also, that should only happen at massive understeer, when you've piled on way more lock than the corner and speed dictate. Understeer is a very subtle feeling and is indicated by a change in correlation between steering weight, lateral g-force and rate of yaw. This is approximated with visual, aural and FFB outputs, but it SHOULD be subtle.
Gone are the days when people think the steering goes really light with understeer (not sure why people thought that was the case?), but I think people still want the equivalent of a big neon Understeer sign when driving.

Now THERES a name I haven't seen in a while! How is the Jaffa Cake Challenge Champion? And how would you rate the ACC physics? (You seem to have a pretty good understanding over the years of what "works")

 

[tristancliffe]

Now THERES a name I haven't seen in a while! How is the Jaffa Cake Challenge Champion? And how would you rate the ACC physics? (You seem to have a pretty good understanding over the years of what "works")

Hey!
About six months ago I managed to get 9 Jaffa Cakes in in one go, but I did NOT film that attempt

I love ACC. The problems with the game (and I haven't suffered many like so many here seem to have) is not really with the physics. The kerbs are a bit funky at times, but I guess that's to do with the contact patch simulation on sharp edges causing extreme forces in the physics engine, and I'm sure they'll find a way to reduce those spikes and make the kerbs a bit more consistent.

I play in VR (Rift), and finishing a race in the dark with slight drizzle, seeing the pits all lit up after an inlap was the most amazing simulation experience I've ever had. And whilst GT cars aren't my usual go-to, I like the lack of choice and therefore everyone is playing the same thing. With AC and mods, there was so much to play that the community was really spread out.

Anyway, I had some good races last night, and I really enjoy feeling the understeer at the limit and using the throttle, brake and steering to coax as much grip and speed out of the cars as I can, turning in at different points as fuel level changes the car balance. It's a fantastic driving experience.

 

[RasmusP]

The kerbs are a bit funky at times,

During the PRC esports event Aris came into the chat and said something like "when we got a stable build of the game I'll have to work on these kerbs".
Which he wrote right after someone spun on them, so I guess he isn't happy with them and will work on them until he is. No matter what it takes him

 

[tristancliffe]

Aris is usually pretty stubborn about fixing things, which is why I was surprised the kerb issue is still there.

 

[Giovaneveterano]

I'm using dinamic dampening at 12%.
Is it too low?

 

[RasmusP]

I'm using dinamic dampening at 12%.
Is it too low?

Well, to make it feelable it's not enough.
It simulates the dampening from the fast spinning tyres when going really fast.
Like a tighter feeling through eau rouge etc