F1 2012 Understeer & FFB - CM's Opinion

[Graham Laing]

The Community manager over at CM's forum has posted this from Steve Hood the creative director (or similar title).

"Pre-release demos are always created earlier than you'd really want, simply because you have a big list of things that might be annoying you that you want to look into... but don't have the time to resolve for an early demo. Add in the fact that tinkering with the demo means a retest and you can see why it can go out earlier than we might want.

It's not as if we 'fixed' anything or found a problem - after the recent hands-on day in Southam we did pick up on a few comments to do with understeer. This had been bugging me for a while and had been something Lee and I were discussing. In amongst a billion other things we were doing at the time Lee trialled a couple of things and one of them worked really well. I won't go into detail as to what it was/is but we much preferred the change. It makes quite a meaningful difference to the handling consistency, the grip levels and massively reduces understeer frustrations (especially so when racing). I hated the Lesmo's prior to this (I couldn't find any consistency) but now I'm able to whip through them as I'd hoped. I stopped raging. It even improved FFB (to get where we'd like to be with this will take a little more work and therefore time but I was finally starting to feel the front tyres). We were getting a little too clever and, much like Jenson Button, decided to go back to basics and work up from there.

I'd like this in as soon as possible but perhaps more sensible types wanted to thoroughly test everything before making it available. We aren't updating the demo and I can't really say what our plans are with regards to the full game but simply know that I want this 'change' to make it through as soon as possible.

Certainly before we join up for some racing ;-)"

So at least that's positive sign .....

Source: http://community.codemasters.com/t5/F1-2012-General-Discussion/Regarding-Understeer/m-p/55942#U55942

 

[RowingAce]

Honestly, after a couple of abu dhabi runs I think the understeer is not the problem. It's quite realistic if you think about it.
The only problem is, that you don't get e proper "warning" about what steering lock is too much, at least on the pad. Absolutely don't know about wheels.
The nervous handling on straits seems to be a problem of the steering linearity. I've set it to 100% (using pad, but overwrite input type to wheel, cause I hate the lagging input on the "pad" type) but would like to set it even higher, cause the handling on straits still feels too nervous.

 

[Graham Laing]

I am with you there. If understeer is nearer reality, then I'll cope with it or try to dial it out in the setup.

Steve Hood did say that they seem to have found a way to make you feel more 'connected' to the track, especially the front wheels, and they have found better FFB too.

What he can't or won't say is if it will be in the initial release. My guess is that they will leave it until the 1st patch, but hey you never know, a day one patch isn't out of the question.

The twitchiness does seem to be down to linearity. Initially I though it was a centre spring thing in the logitech profiler, a 1% setting seemed to fix it. Really it was just masking it, holding the wheel central under tension and stopping the twitching.

 

[FearTheHands]

I hope this does make it into the first full release because the inconsistency of understeer at parabolica @ Monza is chronic & seems overtly extreme.

I don't know if that's just because I am using no driver aids at all & there is not such a big effect with TC or not ...

 

[John Robertson]

I'm hoping the understeer is all down to the default set up. As it is it's impossible to spin if you keep all 4 wheels in the white lines. It's also impossible for me to take parabolica with any kind of speed. I try to gun it mid corner to make the back step out but it just stays planted and sends me off.

TLDR, I hope they don't just remove the understeer. I hope some oversteer is added in.

 

[Ryan Vickery]

The FFB on the PC version for me is completely broken, I cannot do a lap without turning it off as it forces my wheel the wrong way around corners quite violently, sometimes there is no FFB at all and lots of violent jerks and jitters, completely crazy and unusable as it is, with a G27

As for the physics, damn they are god aweful... I'm having a hard time working out how they went from 2011, which was solid but far from perfect to 2012 which is absolutely an abomination.

And the controlls... I couldn't get a linear driving experience, almost like it's putting me through a gamepad filter. Played both the PS3 and PC demo's now and I'm a very disapointed F1 fan, I liked the previous 2 games for what they were but F1 2012 is not going to be on my list of games to buy based on this.

 

[William Levesque]

Stop over-turning the wheel and you won't understeer... Assuming you have a low downforce setup for Monza of course, the test drive at Abu Dhabi puts you an understeery setup for learning

 

[Ryan Vickery]

I've found the fastest way to play this game.

Step 1 : find ideal gear for corner
Step 2 : Turn wheel to full lock
Step 3 : Mash throttle

That was pretty much my tactics around Abu Dhabi, was faster than the AI on the hardest difficulty, I wasn't driving slow. Driving the car is like driving a train, all the "physics" effects are canned/predetermined, not dynamic.

The car is so understeery that you actually need to go full lock to take most corners, the slow speed corners can only be taken in 1st gear or you will understeer off the track because the car has the turning circle of an oil tanker.

 

[cruck12]

I've found the fastest way to play this game.

Step 1 : find ideal gear for corner
Step 2 : Turn wheel to full lock
Step 3 : Mash throttle

That was pretty much my tactics around Abu Dhabi, was faster than the AI on the hardest difficulty, I wasn't driving slow. Driving the car is like driving a train, all the "physics" effects are canned/predetermined, not dynamic.

The car is so understeery that you actually need to go full lock to take most corners, the slow speed corners can only be taken in 1st gear or you will understeer off the track because the car has the turning circle of an oil tanker.

TBH, after playing the demo for some time, and looking at other players drive, ive realized that doing what u said is just the WRONG way of getting a fast lap. The fastest way to lap the track in 2012 is to be gentle on the inputs, especially the wheel.



When i think of whats happening, i feel that cm have tried to implement an advanced version of slip angles into the game. What this has done is that all 2011 style crazy turn in full lock steering has been made redundant, and it will cause you to understeer off the track, which is realistic. This throws off many semi to unskilled players of 2011 off/ exploiting players of 2011 off, and the relatively poor ffb makes it difficult for 'hardcore' simmers with crazy rigs to take advantage of the ffb to find the limit of grip/slip angle.

 

[Ryan Vickery]

TBH, after playing the demo for some time, and looking at other players drive, ive realized that doing what u said is just the WRONG way of getting a fast lap. The fastest way to lap the track in 2012 is to be gentle on the inputs, especially the wheel.



When i think of whats happening, i feel that cm have tried to implement an advanced version of slip angles into the game. What this has done is that all 2011 style crazy turn in full lock steering has been made redundant, and it will cause you to understeer off the track, which is realistic. This throws off many semi to unskilled players of 2011 off/ exploiting players of 2011 off, and the relatively poor ffb makes it difficult for 'hardcore' simmers with crazy rigs to take advantage of the ffb to find the limit of grip/slip angle.

Quite the opposite, I was someone who never used full lock or anything exploitable in 2011 (I only played it in career mode), infact you had to balance your steering and throttle to avoid oversteering and spinning off (and I confirmed this tonight by firing up 2011 after playing 2012) and understeer was an issue when pushing hard so there was definitely a real balance of both understeer and oversteer in 2011. In 2012 on the other hand there are no oversteer effects from turning the wheel too much at high speed and instead you only have the canned/pre determined non dynamic oversteer that needs to be triggered (like snap oversteer), along with that the steering is not as linear as 2011 and finding yourself in a full lock every corner situation is easy, especially with the way the game seems to climax the steering lock the more you turn it.

I was running 1:44's at Abu Dhabi with a few laps to get used to the understeer and it just felt like a point and squirt game where if you tried to take a 1st gear corner in 2nd you would understeer into another country. Those laptimes were far from ideal laps but fast enough to beat the AI on hardest difficulty, which by 2011 standards would not be bad at all.

Using simulators as a benchmark instead of F1 2011 (because let's face it, 2011 wasn't realistic either but it was solid and responsive) quickly puts to bed any arguement that there is any realism to this F1 2012 driving model.

 

[ScottBezza]

I'm kind of hoping that the understeer problem is partly to do with car set up. If not I hope its a patch that will come out soon.

The problem that I have when using the G27 on PS3 is that I get the car slowed down for then corner, then I want to maintain that speed through the corner. As soon as I touch the accelerator even slightly the car understeers like a front wheel drive car would.

What I also notice is that I cant be smooth with steering lock to get round a corner, I seem to need either full steering lock or no steering lock. This really sticks it to my driving style on 2011 because I was a smooth, consistent driver, maybe not the fastest compared to the people on this forum, but its how I played it against the AI. I was able to make tyres last. If this game stays how it is I will be in the pits every 4 laps for a new set of tyres.

After playing it on both Xbox360 and PS3 (with no assists!) my times on Abu Dhabi are:

Xbox360 controller: 1.45.0
PS3 controller: 1.45.9
G27 on PS3: 1.46.4

If it hasn't improved upon release I'll have to play it on the controller and sell my wheel

 

[Richie Hill]

I have to say, I have now started to really like the handling! It's all about small wheel inputs for me I think.

 

[Dmitry Zaharov]

It just looks like they chose steering rack of 20 degrees long or something. At some point if you turn wheel too much your front tires lose grip and you understeer, pretty much like in rFactor and I suppose in real life too. I'm quite smooth with my steering so it's fine for me. I think what CM need to do is just to create an option to chose steering rack (short, medium, long etc) to make everyone happy.

 

[Ivan Gjorgjievski]

Well I am reading this oversteer/understeer issues that you people are having and cannot but laugh. What can you expect from a demo?
Furthermore - The game for now is driving the car, not you! Haven't you noticed that you cannot do a full lock on the wheel even though you have your controller dialed all the way to the left/right? Depending on corner, that is.

 

[RowingAce]

yeah, try and set "overwrite steering input type" to "wheel" if you are on a pad and you'll know what everyone is talking about ..
If you have it to controller I agree, the game does much steering for you.

 

[Victor Ivanov]

It just looks like they chose steering rack of 20 degrees long or something. At some point if you turn wheel too much your front tires lose grip and you understeer, pretty much like in rFactor and I suppose in real life too. I'm quite smooth with my steering so it's fine for me. I think what CM need to do is just to create an option to chose steering rack (short, medium, long etc) to make everyone happy.

Completely agree! CM only need to add FFB to feel when you've turned the wheel too much, like in RF or Race 07. When you can feel the understeer you'll know how much is too much.

 

[Steffen Schaefer]

The FFB on the PC version for me is completely broken, I cannot do a lap without turning it off as it forces my wheel the wrong way around corners quite violently, sometimes there is no FFB at all and lots of violent jerks and jitters, completely crazy and unusable as it is, with a G27

As for the physics, damn they are god aweful... I'm having a hard time working out how they went from 2011, which was solid but far from perfect to 2012 which is absolutely an abomination.

And the controlls... I couldn't get a linear driving experience, almost like it's putting me through a gamepad filter. Played both the PS3 and PC demo's now and I'm a very disapointed F1 fan, I liked the previous 2 games for what they were but F1 2012 is not going to be on my list of games to buy based on this.

Force V-Sync on and the FFB-problems should be gone! The same FFB-problems were in F1 2011 if you had 80 frames and more...

 

[Markus Neumann]

Sounds good. A bit more understeer than in '11 is a good thing, because the amount of grip you have there in the middle and low gears is a little ridiculous, but going through the lesmos is just a pain in the ass right now. It's so unpredictable