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Physics The Physics discussion thread

PsyaNyde

@Simberia
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tbh @ the end of the day...i dont really care as long as i get a good racing exp out of it racing other players, and i don't lose because of some horrendous bug that's no fault of my own :p
Afterall, everyone is racing under the same conditions are they not?
 
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Are the Kunos tires tweaked on a per car basis - even for tires that are the SAME size and compound as others?

Here is the question rephrased in even simpler terms for you:

If we have 2 cars - a Porsche 911 Coupe and a Porsche 911 Cabrio that use IDENTICAL tires/wheels in real life (weight and gearing and engine power might not be the same), would YOU expect to be able to use the SAME tire file for both cars or would YOU expect that the tires would need to be tweaked for each car - even though they use IDENTICAL tires in real life?

Simple question here fella, try answer it please.

I don't need to give you an answer, there are already different cars in game sharing same tyres, like some GT3 cars.

But your dilemma starts with this:

"using what I assume to be GM provided suspension geometry"

And as you don't know if they use real geometries and stuff, your whole discussion becomes useless.
 

PsyaNyde

@Simberia
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Dunno about you lot, but when i was younger, gaming usede to mean just that 'gaming' I understand the call for more reality, but some people just wanna suck the fun out of it all together and wont be happy until every nuance is adjustable and track perfect, where did the 'fun' go? Buy a freakin track car ffs and stop complaining. You're the type of people that make devs give up, try just playing and enjoying, everyone has the same restrictions, just because you think 2 tweaks on the suspension or better tyre compounds etc MIGHT make you faster than 'bob' infront...try having some fun instead...IT'S A GAME, A SIM BUT A GAME!!
 
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Are you sure that they change tyres for the car to feel right? To me it seems the tyre is built in such a way to represent the real tyre. Each tyre type/compound will make the car respond differently, as you'd expect in real life. The car has more "confident" driving on semislicks compared to 90s street tyre. But it may be harder to slide.

RC45, if you have all tyre data and every thing imaginable about your Corvette C5, why don't you use that stuff and build each file for the car instead of taking numbers from other cars or trying to fudge your own.
If you don't know or don't get good results when you input your data, ask for help from an experienced physics modder privately or on the forum.
 
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^^^^
but he won't he seems to be ac physics expert knows engine inside out.

has access to AC source code and no matter what anyone says he ignores.

this discussion has gone 6 pages too long.

instead of moving to rF2 that seems to meet all his needs he just continues to troll
 
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So again you folks try make it about me.

Simple question:

Do Kunos cars use per car tweaked tire files?

Yes or No?

Does the answer scare people? Is that why there is such angry push back to the question?

I used the Kunos C7 tire file to represent C7 tires on a C5 and have been ATTACKED for trying to do so.

In other words tired do not exist in AC as individual tires but rather as car specific data files.

Is any part of any car correctly represented or is everything tweaked per feel?
 
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Does the answer scare people? Is that why there is such angry push back to the question?

I used the Kunos C7 tire file to represent C7 tires on a C5 and have been ATTACKED for trying to do so.

GT3 cars in AC share same tires.

What you can't seem to grasp is that you probably used incorrect or partial data in acd file for your mod.

This is modding forum if you are stuck at problem there are people here that could have helped you instead you wasted their time <snip>
 
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Ok, after you ported (without changing any numbers, just straight port) the Kunos corvette C7 tyres to your C5 mod, what happened?
 
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I don't need to give you an answer, there are already different cars in game sharing same tyres, like some GT3 cars.

But your dilemma starts with this:

"using what I assume to be GM provided suspension geometry"

And as you don't know if they use real geometries and stuff, your whole discussion becomes useless.
So now the tires need tweaking because Kunos has bad chassis data and that is forgivable? But God forbid I might have bad data.

Double standard much?

And as for GT3 cars sharing tires - why did I get attacked for even suggesting this as an option while testing or developing a mod?

I know what a C5 Z06 feels like with series spec series race tires - I once ran a weekend with take off tires from a buddies race car. With that in mind, I should be able to use the GT3 tires in AC for testing purposes right?

Meh, who cares really - I don't. I have shared what I shared and it was poorly received by the disciples of AC.

You guys should go back to your clique and have fun.

What is seriously scary is your lack of reading comprehension. You ask stuff, you are being replied, but you keep asking the same thing again and again.

Yeah, I don't believe I have insulted your reading comprehension.

GT3 cars in AC share same tires.
So does that mean the GT3 cars also share some physics and that they are not unique?

I do believe when I suggested that this should be possible (taking tires unedited from 1 car to another to simulate swapping LIKE tires) I was called a fool and idiot, incompetent, stupid, lacking basic reading comprehension, ignorant of what it takes to make be a true modder etc.

Now that we have that out of the way - that is IS possible and permitted to share tire data files DIRECTLY with other cars, but only if you are in the inner elite circle of "true modders" - anyone else that tries this is a lazy incompetent.

What you can't seem to grasp is that you probably used incorrect or partial data in acd file for your mod.
Even if we assume I did use incorrect data, why should that even matter if sharing tire data files is an acceptable practice?

All that would happen is the results would be skewed one way or the other.

My hard data is correct - all of it. I just made the mistake of publicly saying that when I used Kunos tires I didn't get expected results and needed to adjust the vehicle beyond what would normally be needed.

Had I said "my custom home made tires" don't work then you would have all been "Oh - tweak the tires to get the car to work" and left it at that.

But instead, what you all did was to spend 3 days attacking me with all manner of insults and accusations.

After that why would I even want to be part of such a petty community?

This is modding forum if you are stuck at problem there are people here that could have helped you instead you wasted their time <snip>
I am not stuck with anything - I figured out that the cars need ot be massaged to feel right - and when I made that revelation public you all went out of your ways to attack ( and continue to attack).

Hey, I accept the reality is that AC cars have to be tweaked and massaged to feel right - so what - that's the way it is.
 
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Ok, after you ported (without changing any numbers, just straight port) the Kunos corvette C7 tyres to your C5 mod, what happened?
The car did not behave the way a C5 would with C7 wheel/tires until I massaged the car with out of normal range camber settings.

But I now know what I should have done was tweak the tires to compensate for this - in other words, just keep tweaking the files till the car feels right.

"Modding by trial and error". . You know, like the Chinese space program. LOL
 
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Are you Kunos?

Simple Yes or No answer will suffice.


What is your obsession with "manufacturer' tire data any way? It doesn't matter where the data is sourced from.

The question is the same and very simple.

If the tire data is NOT massaged then it should be able to be used AS IS with any other car to represent tires of the SAME size and compound.

If not then the game engines is fundamentally flawed.

If you CANNOT use the SAME data to represent the SAME tire then how can ANY OTHER attribute be taken seriously?

If you are CHANGING tire data to match each car then SOMETHING must NOT be represented correctly.

This is not rocket science, it is simple reality.

And as I conceded previously, if the reality is that every car is uniquely massaged for in-game feel, then so be it - that is fine, just don't pretend this is a proper simulator that can use appropriate input data then.

I wonder if each of the Porsche's in the DLC has been "uniquely tweaked" for feel?

Man, you are really looking for a fight arent you? That or you just like all the attention and drama.

You have zero reason to be so aggressive to others that know more than you and are offering their advice on their own time.

Give it up and move on, or be productive and willing to accept advice. Dont be so stubborn and bull headed.
 
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The car did not behave the way a C5 would with C7 wheel/tires until I massaged the car with out of normal range camber settings.

But I now know what I should have done was tweak the tires to compensate for this - in other words, just keep tweaking the files till the car feels right.

"Modding by trial and error". . You know, like the Chinese space program. LOL
So it means instead of using your real data from tyres you have in your real car to simulate in the game, you're taking tyres made for another car. And in case your real C5 is using c7 tyres, how do you know those c7 tyres you own are the same kunos simulated? It seems it wasn't.
Why don't you build your mod without borrowing numbers from other cars in the game, just to test how your mod compares to real life using only and only your data and nothing else.
 
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So now the tires need tweaking because Kunos has bad chassis data and that is forgivable? But God forbid I might have bad data.

Double standard much?

Your ability to make fantasies from random assumptions is just mindblowing.

And as for GT3 cars sharing tires - why did I get attacked for even suggesting this as an option while testing or developing a mod?

I know what a C5 Z06 feels like with series spec series race tires - I once ran a weekend with take off tires from a buddies race car. With that in mind, I should be able to use the GT3 tires in AC for testing purposes right?

Meh, who cares really - I don't. I have shared what I shared and it was poorly received by the disciples of AC.

You haven't been attacked for such thing (plus you initially mentioned that that the tyres were different), you have been for making claims like :

"Although to be honest, as I have been working with real chassis data I have noticed that the AC physics engine is very very very far from being a real representation of real world physics using real world chassis data."

"Reporting these real world physics behaviors to Kunos will do nothing, there is no way Kunos will admit their toy engine is fundamentally flawed in a way they already know it is - the game may behave like a car simulator responding to real world physics data, but it is not."

"That is NOT how a simulation engine is supposed to work."

"It turns out that AC is a cute game for creating an ILLUSION of a REAL car, but the DATA used for that ILLUSION is not the real data but rather a massaged and manipulated version of the data."


And I stopped there in the first page already, if I add also all the nonsense about suggesting that AC should have realtime CFD and so on... Now don't pretend you are the victim after making such claims and ignoring the reasons/ideas etc given by other people.

So does that mean the GT3 cars also share some physics and that they are not unique?

I do believe when I suggested that this should be possible (taking tires unedited from 1 car to another to simulate swapping LIKE tires) I was called a fool and idiot, incompetent, stupid, lacking basic reading comprehension, ignorant of what it takes to make be a true modder etc.

Now that we have that out of the way - that is IS possible and permitted to share tire data files DIRECTLY with other cars, but only if you are in the inner elite circle of "true modders" - anyone else that tries this is a lazy incompetent.

Again repeating the same and lying... look, the truth here is that your car was almost fine with those tyres; you claimed the feeling was there just raising the camber, which means that you just needed to tune up a bit the lateral grip (a pretty good starting point considering that you don't have specific tire data, meaning that whatever you put in the tyre physics will be estimations), however your decision was to make all this shitstorm, going from accusations of physics engine being broken, to Kunos tuning the tyres by feel, and now accusing people of saying things that they didn't. I seriously don't understand what are you trying to achieve.
 

Stereo

Premium
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The tire files in general will be fine from car to car; there is one value that would need to be tweaked to reflect the individual car though - rotational inertia. It's a single value representing all the unsprung weight - tire, wheel, axle, brake disc - so in order to most accurately represent the car, you do have to adjust it to reflect the real measurement of the entire set of inertias.


I still don't know what you mean by higher camber giving you a more realistic feel... is there more lateral grip? Less? Faster load transfer? Slower? Something else?




Anyway, just to be clear, it's quite possible Kunos's C7 tire files are not correct for a PSS ZP tire. But if they aren't, it'd be better to tell them what's wrong with the data than to immediately jump to "the chassis simulation is wrong"
 
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Yet its ok to be called ignorant, stupid, arrogant by other posters. Have my real life car and driving insulted.
What?! Some people are animals. Is your car okay?

What I can't understand is, from the first or second post you've been of the opinion that Assetto Corsa is no sim at all. It's a joke. They fudge all the numbers. Etc. You say that you have all the data & measurements for a C5 Corvette and you're ready to start building that mod, but since AC is a joke, in your estimation, why not just forget about AC and build your car for rFactor 2?

As you pointed out, not only do you believe AC is a "cute game" with a "toy engine", since you're building "the definitive C5 Corvette mod" (sound trumpets) why would you waste your time A) Using AC and B) arguing with "fanboys"? Don't you value your time? You're not going to change their minds just as you have all the answers and your mind is made up.

If you were, in fact, serious at all about building this "definitive C5 Corvette" (sound trumpets), why wouldn't you post questions on the official physics forum for AC? There you would have developers who could answer your questions instead of these rabid fanboys. I don't get what you're trying to do.
 
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The tire files in general will be fine from car to car; there is one value that would need to be tweaked to reflect the individual car though - rotational inertia. It's a single value representing all the unsprung weight - tire, wheel, axle, brake disc - so in order to most accurately represent the car, you do have to adjust it to reflect the real measurement of the entire set of inertias.
A single value to represent all the above?
Seems like a huge compromise right there.
Why not make allowances for unique values for each?
Oh thats right, just tweak till it feels right.

I still don't know what you mean by higher camber giving you a more realistic feel... is there more lateral grip? Less? Faster load transfer? Slower? Something else?
At this stage, what difference does it make?
The car feels right.
Move on, I have.

Anyway, just to be clear, it's quite possible Kunos's C7 tire files are not correct for a PSS ZP tire. But if they aren't, it'd be better to tell them what's wrong with the data than to immediately jump to "the chassis simulation is wrong"
Say what? They have an officially licenses GM car and I should be telling them they got the tires wrong?

Or is the car not licensed after all, as in game they use Hankook tire textures which suggests they have a some generic Hankook tire data and have fudged all the numbers for all the cars.

I wonder what the fudge factor is for the new official Porsche DLC?

What?! Some people are animals. Is your car okay?
Funny guy - except I was banned for a week for supposedly attacking someone in violation of ToS.

THAT'S the point - RD is a a double standard run clique of back patters where if you are "the in crowd" insinuate and insult all day with impunity.
 
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Why, because my question is valid and you have no proper answer?

Hey, don't feel bad that you have had to tweak all you cars for "to feel right" - embrace the reality.
No, because you are spewing nonsense....such as:

A single value to represent all the above?
Seems like a huge compromise right there.
Why not make allowances for unique values for each?
Oh thats right, just tweak till it feels right.
:O_o: Because that is all rotational inertia actually is...one value... The inertia of each part is additive, so the physical properties of real life and AC ultimately leave you with a singular value. That's how physics work. You're showing a complete lack of knowledge of them.

Or is the car not licensed after all, as in game they use Hankook tire textures which suggests they have a some generic Hankook tire data and have fudged all the numbers for all the cars.
And then you make ridiculous assumptions such as this one...Jumping from the existence of a 2d texture to the conclusion that because of it, they must have gotten Hankook tire data, is absurd.

The majority of your arguments are simply uninformed and nonsensical. And no that's not a "personal attack", it's objectively stating an obvious truth.
 
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