The "my sim is better than your sim" thread

[Cote Dazur]

Inital numbers are (mainly) driven by marketing and licensing (the two are often linked), not by quality, otherwise AMS1 would have been the most driven Sim in gaming history...

Yes, of course, you are absolutely correct, SIM racer do not drive what they feel is the best simulator, they drive what the marketing tell them to drive. That much is clear.

The proof is all the marketing surrounding AC making it the most used simulator, as per the steam numbers, but not because it is a great driving experience with very decent graphic, a ton of content and a lot of online activity, no, just marketing and licensing. Chrystal clear, thank you for reminding us.

It is OK to like something that is not popular, does not make it good or bad, just something some one enjoy, even if it is not popular.

But for the developers behind it pouring in a lot of work and resources surely they must hope a decent amount of people buy and use the fruits of all their efforts. Which is what I wish for Reiza.

AMS 1 was owned and driven by a very small amount of people, that is a fact. Hopefully AMS 2 will be more successful.

 

[b)b]

Yes, of course, you are absolutely correct, SIM racer do not drive what they feel is the best simulator, they drive what the marketing tell them to drive. That much is clear.

The proof is all the marketing surrounding AC making it the most used simulator, as per the steam numbers, but not because it is a great driving experience with very decent graphic, a ton of content and a lot of online activity, no, just marketing and licensing. Chrystal clear, thank you for reminding us.

It is OK to like something that is not popular, does not make it good or bad, just something some one enjoy, even if it is not popular.

But for the developers behind it pouring in a lot of work and resources surely they must hope a decent amount of people buy and use the fruits of all their efforts. Which is what I wish for Reiza.

AMS 1 was owned and driven by a very small amount of people, that is a fact. Hopefully AMS 2 will be more successful.

Not that you are wrong or anything, but F1 2019 beats all the games of the chart you posted. Just saying.

 

[Avo77]

Pcars2 is atrocious in all aspects, still people are using it...
Assetto Corsa is great in terms of content, simulation and, most important, it has been developed from scratch as an easy to access modding platform.

So?

 

[Miguel Batista]

Pcars2 is atrocious in all aspects, still people are using it...
Assetto Corsa is great in terms of content, simulation and, most important, it has been developed from scratch as an easy to access modding platform.

So?

Pcars2 does certain things better than AC. Including simulating a car with certain car/track combos. Problem is content inconsistency.

 

[Proto 3.0]

Pcars2 is atrocious in all aspects, still people are using it...
Assetto Corsa is great in terms of content, simulation and, most important, it has been developed from scratch as an easy to access modding platform.

So?

PC2 is amazing in LMP, GTE and GT1, and american tracks are amazing. And Kunos never had a working tire model. How do you like this opinion?

 

[Cote Dazur]

F1 2019 beats all the games of the chart you posted. Just saying.

You are absolutly correct, their is more than one aspect to simulate racing, F1 2019 is doing a lot to simulate racing 2019 F1 cars and a lot of people recognize that. It is not a one trick pony.

Pcars2 is atrocious in all aspects

You might not like PCars2, it does not make it atrocious, a lot of people enjoy simulating racing in PCars 2. With the proper FFB file the driving is even enjoyable in many cars.

At the end of the day, their is more than good FFB to make a simulator, most titles are having acceptable physic and FFb these days, once you add tactile to your rig, instead of trying to feel things in the FFB that have no business in the wheel, some title have a lot going for them.
None have the holly truth, just different interpretations.

We are all fantasizing about the SIM that would have all the aspect we prefer but can only find in different title. In the mean time I find that variety in a SIM diet is the most susceptible to fulfill my appetite.
AMS 2 is no more a god send than AMS 1 ever was, let just hope that Reiza will make it as good as they can for us to enjoy with everything else we have in our library, both for their sake and our sake.
don't be fooled people drive what they prefer, even if you think they should prefer something else because you do. We all know about all the SIM, once you invest a lot in a rig, which a lot of us have, the cost of software is marginal, if we like it we will drive it, if we don't like it, we don't.

 

[CrimsonEminence]

don't be fooled people drive what they prefer, even if you think they should prefer something else because you do.

The same applies to you.^^

 

[Cote Dazur]

The same applies to you.^^

Yes of course, I drive what I prefer more often than what I least like, but I drive all SIM.
They all have something I like.
After a rocky start the first day, I even persevered with AMS 2 and I already like some aspect of it, even though it is in a very early stage with a lot needing to be fixed.
What is it that I do not like to drive?

 

[Avo77]

PC2 is amazing in LMP, GTE and GT1, and american tracks are amazing. And Kunos never had a working tire model. How do you like this opinion?

Kunos tire model in AC has just one flaw that can't be fixed: contact with sharp edges geometries.
Annoying, true, but with small adjustments to rolling resistance and load sensitivity respect to the usual Kunos parameters, the results achievable (not running over high kerbs) in terms of fidelity are impressive for such an easy to manage model.

I never tested that kind of cars in PC2 (not my cup of tea)... I'll do immediately, always eager to find something new and good.

 

[Cote Dazur]

.

 

[CrimsonEminence]

Kunos tire model in AC has just one flaw that can't be fixed: contact with sharp edges geometries.

Oh yes...this improved MASSIVELY with the newer contact patch in ACC.

I am still puzzled, when you write your favorite is AMS 1 but also write you do not drive it more than the other, you drive them equally.

I was driving a lot of AMS1, GTR2 and older stuff when i didn't had a machine to run any other new sim. This changed, when i got a new system, but after testing all the stuff, it still doesn't give me the same "spirit", as AMS1 does. But this doesn't mean, i don't find always a reason to drive those other sims, because every piece of Software has its own strengths and flaws. Hard to explain.

You seem to be different, why would you not use the SIM you like most more than the one you like least? How do you know you prefer it?

Driving feel is important for me, also i drive often against AI and i prefere certain combinations and fidelity of some modelling in physics and systems are supporting this. AMS1 gives me the most there (also AMS2 right now), because of good transmission modelling, good handling, driving grassroots style stuff, believeable (even if too fast) open wheelers and so on...

But when i want to drive more mainstream stuff, other sims come into play. No other sims give me the GT3 experience, like ACC and R3E, for example. Or i want to do an oldie race on Goodwood or a GTR2 revival with the RSS mods, then AC comes into play and so on. But when i go back to AMS/AMS2, it just feels "home".

 

[Avo77]

I think from what I read from you that we have a lot in common, even though we have different taste. That is OK, because I like something does not make it better to any one else, just better for me.

If f1 2019 supported VR, I would drive it a lot more.

I am still puzzled, when you write your favorite is AMS 1 but also write you do not drive it more than the other, you drive them equally.
My favorite is AC and I drive it a lot more, possibly 70 to 80 % of the time I drive. That is how I know it is my favorite, the same goes with my favorite car or track, I drive there more often.
I think most people are like that they use what they prefer more often, which reflect in the steam statistic.
You seem to be different, why would you not use the SIM you like most more than the one you like least? How do you know you prefer it?

I drive AC more than anything else because there is always some new great content to try (sol and CM have actually relived it to incredible levels) and because I like to mod it.

In fact, in an ideal world, the best move for Reiza would have been to license AC engine, hire Ilja and Peter and continue developing it.
As recent facts demonstrate our world is far from ideal, otherwise I would be out for my usual Saturday night with friends or consuming some expensive PilotSC2 on Tuscany hills...

So we need to wait for the good Reiza developers to learn how to extract the best out SMS engine and appreciate the content they will be able to license. The more people will invest, the more we will get; not allowing modding is questionable but still we live in non ideal world.

 

[Lino Carreira]

PC2 is amazing in LMP, GTE and GT1, and american tracks are amazing. And Kunos never had a working tire model. How do you like this opinion?

Its a wrong opinion, theres like 1 or 2 tracks that are even remotely close to their real counterparts and no LMP, GTE and GT1 are not amazing...they fall on the atrocious category on the limit, only semi fun cars to drive are the slow front wheel drives like the Clio and even those sometimes have the weirdest reactions.... Not even gonna bother replying the tyre model one...

 

[Avo77]

Its a wrong opinion, theres like 1 or 2 tracks that are even remotely close to their real counterparts and no LMP, GTE and GT1 are not amazing...they fall on the atrocious category on the limit, only semi fun cars to drive are the slow front wheel drives like the Clio and even those sometimes have the weirdest reactions.... Not even gonna bother replying the tyre model one...

I confirm.
Just tested the GTE and there is no way to break traction in first gear from standstill... Even with all the assists off the car behaves like it has TC on medium or high level with engine rpms put in 'pause' mode as soon as the car starts to slide laterally.
Those kind of things make me furious and are the main critics I've made to Reiza guys about AMS2 (in some cases are solved, in others still present...).

Pure lateral behavior and braking are mostly fine in PC2 (maybe a bit too much grip but who cares... and it's the reason why FWD cars are quite good) but when forward thrust is put into the equation everything is screwed.
So no, thanks @Proto 3.0 for the suggestions but I keep my points.

Praise where praise is due, the ffb file mentioned by @Cote Dazur is very, very good. On a bad simulator, but it's good.

 

[SwaggerJacker]

Pcars2 is atrocious in all aspects, still people are using it...
Assetto Corsa is great in terms of content, simulation and, most important, it has been developed from scratch as an easy to access modding platform.

So?

Not in all aspects. That's a bit much. However to me, it isn't very good. No amount of marketing is going to change my mind on that, or "make" me play the game....more. I think every sim has something I find enjoyable. Despite itself PC2 has some redeeming qualities. Having said that, there are a great many people that absolutely love the game, which make your statement an opinion, nothing more. Marketing affects initial purchases. You know, hype and all. However, marketing isn't the driving force behind continued use of the software.

 

[Proto 3.0]

So no, thanks @Proto 3.0 for the suggestions but I keep my points.

A couple of personal combo from me:
- Dallara IR-12 Chevrolet (Road Course) + Long Beach Street Circuit
- Ligier JS P2 Honda + Daytona Road Course
- Ferrari 488 GTE + Watkins Glen International GP
And most importantly, I have been using custom files "Christiaan's Pure FFB" for a long time that significantly change the feel of FFB in racing.
Good luck!

 

[Amanda]

In fact, in an ideal world, the best move for Reiza would have been to license AC engine

I strongly disagree as the AC engine lacks many important features for a proper simulation and has many flaws, including the apparent global suspension stiffness not being correct for stiff cars (such as F1 cars, which is perhaps one of the most used categories on any rFactor-based game and I presume will be carried over to AMS2), questionable aero simulation, simplistic discrete track grip level gain (contrary to the fully dynamic track features of the Madness Engine), no proper rain simulation, no proper night simulation with real dynamic lighting, quite a bit of fudged physics and setup parameters needed to get something satisfactory, no adjustable brake ducts and no brake wear/temp simulation, no adjustable steering lock, lack of oil/water/engine temperature simulation, no rolling starts, no shortcuts (e.g. for the first Nordschleife lap, forcing drivers to take a full lap before qualy), no garage starts, no engine stalls, no safety car, no selecting gear before start, no complete manual pitlane control and thus no pitlane penalties.....

So on and so forth.

Licensing the AC engine would be too much work for a small team. Heck, even Kunos didn't want to develop ACC on it, they did the right choice and went for a proper modern engine.

 

[Avo77]

I strongly disagree as the AC engine lacks many important features for a proper simulation and has many flaws, including the apparent global suspension stiffness not being correct for stiff cars (such as F1 cars, which is perhaps one of the most used categories on any rFactor-based game and I presume will be carried over to AMS2), questionable aero simulation, simplistic discrete track grip level gain (contrary to the fully dynamic track features of the Madness Engine), no proper rain simulation, no proper night simulation with real dynamic lighting, quite a bit of fudged physics and setup parameters needed to get something satisfactory, no adjustable brake ducts and no brake wear/temp simulation, no adjustable steering lock, lack of oil/water/engine temperature simulation, no rolling starts, no shortcuts (e.g. for the first Nordschleife lap, forcing drivers to take a full lap before qualy), no garage starts, no engine stalls, no safety car, no selecting gear before start, no complete manual pitlane control and thus no pitlane penalties.....

So on and so forth.

Licensing the AC engine would be too much work for a small team. Heck, even Kunos didn't want to develop ACC on it, they did the right choice and went for a proper modern engine.

All true.
Most of the limitations you mentioned have been overcome anyway by modders with no access to source code so for sure could be addressed more effectively by a proper development team.
The 'proper modern engine' for ACC is used for graphics alone. The physics engine is still an evolution of AC one...

 

[Amanda]

Most of the limitations you mentioned have been overcome anyway by modders with no access to source code

I really doubt most were truly overcome considering the features weren't implemented on a source code level to begin with. It's not like anyone can take a sim that doesn't have e.g. brake wear and claim they've implemented the feature. At best, I believe most made tricks to, well, trick the user as if said feature was actually being simulated, when in fact it's not. In the said example, they could make a function so that, the more the brakes are used, the less pressure they have over time, thus faking brake wear. They can call it "brake wear" all day long, but it's far from it.

Surely that's just an example.

I just want to clarify something: I don't think AC has brake wear implemented, but I don't think it's impossible to implement custom code over Kuno's code. I do remember some 3rd party plane developers doing the same for FSX, the sim had many limitations that forced addon developers to run code outside of FSX's process in order to properly calculate whatever math they needed to in order to have a proper simulation. Do I think that's possible with AC? Yes. Do I think that's what most top modders did? Well, considering Kunos themselves didn't do it, no. I don't think that was done at all.

so for sure could be addressed more effectively by a proper development team

Which development team more likely to known the insides of the engine than Kunos? It's not a matter of them not being able to improve their engine, it's a matter of it taking too long and being too expensive to do so.

It doesn't make much sense for a development team to spend thousands of hours and hundreds of thousands of dollars improving an engine when there are engines which already contain the features you need.

It didn't make sense for Kunos (the creators of the engine), and it would never make sense for Reiza either.

 

[Avo77]

Implementing a feature like brake wear in terms of coding is't a matter of just a few hours.
Using the feature across 150 cars it's a very different matter and you do it just if the cost benefit is positive.
How many users will not play AC because it lacks brake wear? Maybe 0.01% so... not worth it.
That kind of time and money can't be saved using a different platform that, yes, has the functions already implemented but not a single example where they work properly.

Adding features and not testing their consistency is the main reason why PC2 is such a mess.
A great engine with no one able to properly calibrate it due to overcomplication and spreading across thousands of cars/track combinations.

Reiza with AMS2 is trying (and mostly succeeding) in giving value to SMS work, but it will require some time with the real risk of losing customer base and thus money to support the needed expansion of licensing (missing big Brands and iconic tracks is not good for sales).

Opening to modders would have strongly mitigated the risk but I think, no matter the official position of Reiza, that it has been explicitly forbidden by SMS in order to avoid the immediate migration and improvement of all PC2 content on the new game.

That said I'll always support AMS2 and promote it as much as I can.