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Teams Borrowing drivers

Discussion in 'Simracing Team Challenge' started by Ben Tusting, Jul 7, 2009.

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  1. Xosé Estrada

    Xosé Estrada
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    Thanks Jari, this is exactly my oppinion and very well explained.

    Nothing more to say from my side in that direction :)

    About what to do in the future, it's difficult to control where a person races or not... not sure if we can go further than advice in this matter.

    STC spirit is to allow teams to have a high-level competition to measure they real strenght in a friendly environment (as we pretty know most of other guys inside). The point is real strenght includes fast and slow guys in the team, and only permanent team memebers, whith this conditions if the team is bigger or smaller is not really important.

    Cya!.
     
  2. Ben Tusting

    Ben Tusting

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    This is eactly what i was trying to say. STC is all about having fun in my eyes with your TeamMates (Not members from another team so you can win races).
    So the issue about getting new members into a team is fine (some teams need members to actually be a team) But getting members into a team which belongs to another team is not right in my opinion. Sim Racing team challenge is about having fun with your competitors and your teammates(Not part owned drivers so you think you have a better chance of winning races/League)
     
  3. Mikko Korkiakoski

    Mikko Korkiakoski

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    Oh come on, now you're making us look like --> :vampire: when we are racing here. But honestly, we do take STC seriously (not extremely though) - how else would a team be competitive. But we won't forget that having fun is the basic principle behind sim racing. For me the most enjoyable moments in racing are those insane battles with equally fast drivers, wether I come out on top or not.
    And let's not start accusing people of "borrowing" drivers. This will only kill the fun from this series. I don't see anything wrong in recruiting people to drive in a certain team for a certain series...even if this new recruit would be in another team also. This kind of thing is very common in the simracing community so I don't see the point in arguing about it.

    As somebody started talking about Wilfred vd. Brink we can also take him as an example. When he and I were in Ghostspeed (well we kinda still are because we never officially resigned) doing sim challenge and other races regurarly, he also drove races like SSCA enduros for SRFH. While at the same time GS also raced there. So I'd say that this is the same kind of thing that Bram was talking about and I just don't think there's anything wrong there.

    Peace, out.
     
  4. Bram Hengeveld

    Bram Hengeveld
    RaceDepartment Founder Staff Premium

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    Like i said in the previous posts, that is something that every team needs to decide for themself if they find that acceptable. My personal opinion, regardless what my team's opinion is, is that this has nothing to do with team racing anymore if every team simply recruits the fastest drivers just to be able to win a competition that was started to race with fellow friends/teams.
    It's indeed common in other leagues, but that shouldn't prevent us to have an honest discussion about it. STC is a teamchallenge where only a few licensed teams are lucky enough to enter.

    But different people different opinions, as long as we all have fun, it's fine by me
     
  5. Lee Downham

    Lee Downham

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    LOL's indeed a right hornets nest this one ...

    I tend to agree with what Jari said ... using "guns for hire" is a bit cheeky, but policing it is going to be rather hard ... honour and gentleman's agreements and all that need to be reached on this, and maybe not hardcore rules, which is probably what Ben raised the issue for in the first place.
    I think there is a case for having this out in the open that it could be an issue, and maybe if someone thinks a certain driver is being used "illegally" then there is an investigation on a case by case basis?? But then maybe I am talking utter dross here :D

    Before anyone else says it, we could maybe be accused of being a bit close to the bone with Tim H joining us at BVM ...
    He did so at the same time as we entered this league - but in our defense he is not driving for anyone else and is fully committed to us ... we own you dude :p LOL's
    We (Ben) had in fact been discussing things with Tim and had wanted him to join for some time prior to entering this league ... and if I am honest I think entering this league was the final thing that helped swing Tim's decision to join a team - we were just happy that he chose us. :grouphug:

    I do like the idea of limiting number of races per person based on number of team members ... it increases the spirit of the "team challenge" bit.
     
  6. Mikko Korkiakoski

    Mikko Korkiakoski

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    Yeah I totally understand where you're coming from. If each team submitted a list of drivers (like 10-12 maybe?) that were to drive for the season - and do it before the season starts, then I would think that could please everybody.
    Now depending on how many races one driver is allowed to do and whatever we decide, the max number of drivers could be whatever is decided. With maybe a room for a replacement or two if something unimaginable happens.
     
  7. David Garcia

    David Garcia

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    :good: Then we will sort something out soon to grant clean competition.
     
  8. Tom Ilsbroux

    Tom Ilsbroux

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    Sry but i don't see this is going to work.
    A team can have a limited number of driver but all very active and always available.
    Where a bigger team can have more drivers but less active or available.
    And to make it more complicated this can change throughout the season.

    You just can't make this to work. No way to get it right. This will end up in endless discussion getting nowhere as it will be never be correct.

    The idea might be good, but impossibel to handle.

    Sry but this just won't work.
     
  9. Lee Downham

    Lee Downham

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    ^^ See the bit in bold from Mikko below ... there will always be exceptions to every rule, but there has to be some way of trying to keep this as fair as possible.


    Maybe teams who are near a cut-off point (eg. 12 drivers and the cut off is 10) and feel that they cannot manage to get enough racers all year for 4 races per driver, then they can appeal to be allowed 5 or 6 races per driver ...
    I think basically its understood by everyone that real life comes first, so if such requests are legitimate, then I would have no problems whatsoever with the odd exception being made.

    I think the whole idea is to be fair and keep it fun and interesting ... if we all have a shot at glory and the final positions are closer, then I am all for it.

    Hey ... on that score ... what about weight penalties for fast drivers - ie. if they place in top 5 or 10 in a race, then in the next one they have to drive with a big ol weight penalty :evil: then you could compound the weight penalties (50kg + 50kgs if they get up there in 2 races or more) lols :p
     
  10. David Garcia

    David Garcia

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    I don´t like the weight penaltys because it is not fair I take a car with weight from a fast driver. It is a team challenge.

    But yes the idea is to find an ideal system to get a fair game for all the participants.
     
  11. Neil Gault

    Neil Gault

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    weights would work fine if they followed the driver, if he scored high enough to be awarded a weight penalty then the next time he races in the league he has the penalty, does not matter if it was the next race or 2 or 3 races down the line. But yes you are correct if it was to be awarded to the team it would be most unfair.
     
  12. David Garcia

    David Garcia

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    Exactly Neil, and we don´t want it to be a hell of a job for the staff, so I think it should remain as it is now.
     
  13. Eckhart von Glan

    Eckhart von Glan

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    who unearthed my connection to Ghostspeed? ts ts ts
     
  14. John Westerlund

    John Westerlund

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    I'm not in favor of changing the format to favor any particular form of team, large or small. Naturally a big team with fast drivers will have more success than a smaller team but that's the name of the game!

    It's an encouragement for teams that want to compete at the top to work more with practice, setup, strategy, driver development, recruitment etc.

    Please don't change the format towards more of a "funracing" concept. There is a whole bunch of funracing leauges out there but too few serious racing leauges!

    /john
     
  15. Lee Downham

    Lee Downham

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    The weight thing was a joke BTW ... although if it were ever to be done, my train of thought was adding the penalty to the driver not the next team racer to come along (in which case I would be the poor sod getting 150Kg's knowing my luck) ... but I would like to see it used every once in a while (maybe not here this season but deffo be nice to see it in use somewhere) to help level the field for us slower folks and to make for more some more interesting racing :thumb:

    Also, I don't think this number of events raced per driver rule makes it "funracing" at all, it just helps teams to continue to compete who don't have a huge number of drivers and who do not necessarily want to increase their sizes to that of Team DHR (BTW: this is not a dig Damo, its just that yours is probably one of the larger teams from what I can gather ... but we should ban Wilfred, he is just too fast [jk] :giggle:).

    If the number were put to +10 team members, then it maybe adversly effects BVM (ie we would not gain from such a ruling), so don't think my view is biassed ... :wink2:
     
  16. David Garcia

    David Garcia

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    OK then. If you found it was a good system, it should remain as it was. :bye:
     
  17. Mike Simian

    Mike Simian

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    Personally don't see the problem here.

    What difference does it make if a driver who drives for one team outside of STC then drives for another within STC?

    The rule about drivers can only race for one STC team per season works fine, and if a driver wants to race for another team the next season, well so what? It happens in real racing. This is a team issue and not an STC issue.

    Why are we getting bogged down in this sort of stuff. All teams are different with different values, lets leave it that way and really theres nothing you can do to change it, that its just the way it is.

    I am not judging any team, and I hadn't even thought about this, its just not an issue in my mind.

    On to the weight penaltys and how many times a driver can race depending on team numbers.....Lets not over complicate things so quickly, its fine to have the discussion, but there doesn't neccessarily need to be any action taken because we have a discussion.

    Last season was great the way it was, things should simply be tweaked a little at a time, small steps not blanket changes(is that the phrase I'm looking for? sorry mental block). The STC championship is far from broken so theres no need to "fix it".

    Just my thoughts for whatever they are worth.
     
  18. Ross Balfour

    Ross Balfour
    #99 | Roaring Pipes Maniacs

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    I disagree, imagine Kaka going to Manchster United only for the last 2 games of the premiership because Real Madrid had no games on when ManU were playing, it wouldnt be right!
     
  19. Mike Simian

    Mike Simian

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    Sorry but that doesn't make any sense, who and what are you refering to Ross?

    We are talking about if a driver races for a one team in a different league can he still drive for another team within STC?

    Ofcource he can, we dont have a european cup of sim racing there is no cross over. How can you stop that from happening anyway, its silly to think you can.

    And to clarify the rules at the moment state a driver can only race for one STC team per season, it does not say anything about a driver can't change to a different team, and in my opinion it should not. I doubt we will see many driver changes over the life of STC but if for some reason someone wanted to change, say one team falls apart, then why shouldn't a driver drive for someone else, as long as the origional "drive for only one STC team per season" rule is adhered to.
     
  20. David Garcia

    David Garcia

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    Yes Ross, a good example to make a comparation in this case woul be David Beckham who could play for LA Galaxy and Milan in same seassons.

    As long as the teams can´t colide in the same competition it is ok in real life, or at least ifn football, if Cristiano sign with Manchester again, he will be able to play the premiership but no the Champions League.

    (How could we manage to end the discussion talking about football? :D)

    OK, time to close the topic maybe... :terminator::th_o:

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts guys! :)
     
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