AC Tatuus FA01 @ Brands Hatch GP - Tue 26Sep17

[ionONE1]

I really just wanted to chill after 6 hours pcar2 open lobby madness.
Reminded me of the Audi TT incident only worse this time. You just move into me @Roberto Dominici ?

I think i deserve a warning for leaving btw

 

[Patrik Trefny]

Mistakes happen and you clearly show that you are willing to learn and that you are a good guy!
You'll always be welcome man!

If you need any advice on something just ask. Maybe post some timestamps of situations you are not sure how to handle them properly so I/we can help you
View attachment 213746

Hi Rasmus, here are short clips of the situation. actually from replay it seems as I should have wait a bit and let the car in front of me pass, but maybe he had to keep broader line and let me some space, don't know

..not much time to play with capture so I did not do any additional editing. btw how to display drivers name in replay? in game works ctrl-L fine.
Thanks

 

[hape]

Hi Rasmus, here are short clips of the situation. actually from replay it seems as I should have wait a bit and let the car in front of me pass, but maybe he had to keep broader line and let me some space, don't know

hi Patrik
imho the rule is if you pass with your front tyre the back tyre of the opponent he has to give you space. Otherwise you have to brake so there is no "causing a collision" situation.Imho this is your fault. I did the same in another race and we all learn more and more of racing .
Here is an explanation and i think you are on B as attacker.
hape

A. Attacker more than half-way alongside

In this case, the attacker is definitely more than halfway past the defender at the apex. The attacker has the right to the racing line. A collision at the apex is entirely the fault of the defender.

B. Attacker less than half-way alongside

In this case, the attacker has only their front wing alongside the defender’s rear wheel. The defender has the right to the racing line. A collision at the apex is entirely the fault of the attacker.

C. Attacker approximately half-way alongside

In this case, the attacker’s front axle is ahead of the defender’s rear axle and the two cars are approximately halfway alongside. Both drivers have a reasonable claim to the apex. If contact occurs, blame will have to be shared. It is in this zone that racing incidents can occur. Ayrton Senna was famous for creating situations just like this, as both attacker and defender, where the other driver would have to decide whether or not to yield to avoid a collision.

 

[Patrik Trefny]

hi Patrik
imho the rule is if you pass with your front tyre the back tyre of the opponent he has to give you space. Otherwise you have to brake so there is no "causing a collision" situation.Imho this is your fault. I did the same in another race and we all learn more and more of racing .
Here is an explanation and i think you are on B as attacker.
hape

A. Attacker more than half-way alongside

In this case, the attacker is definitely more than halfway past the defender at the apex. The attacker has the right to the racing line. A collision at the apex is entirely the fault of the defender.

B. Attacker less than half-way alongside

In this case, the attacker has only their front wing alongside the defender’s rear wheel. The defender has the right to the racing line. A collision at the apex is entirely the fault of the attacker.

C. Attacker approximately half-way alongside

In this case, the attacker’s front axle is ahead of the defender’s rear axle and the two cars are approximately halfway alongside. Both drivers have a reasonable claim to the apex. If contact occurs, blame will have to be shared. It is in this zone that racing incidents can occur. Ayrton Senna was famous for creating situations just like this, as both attacker and defender, where the other driver would have to decide whether or not to yield to avoid a collision.

thanks for perfect explanation! there's still a lot to learn yet.

 

[manu68]

Hi Rasmus, here are short clips of the situation. actually from replay it seems as I should have wait a bit and let the car in front of me pass, but maybe he had to keep broader line and let me some space, don't know

..not much time to play with capture so I did not do any additional editing. btw how to display drivers name in replay? in game works ctrl-L fine.
Thanks

I didn't intend the race. I am neutral
In my opinion, the attacker is guilty (Situation B). At exactly 00:13, the red car is approaching the curve at the right place and begins to turn in, exactly on the racing line . Due to his position at that time, (front wheel not exactly at the same level as the red car back wheel) the yellow car should have anticipated that overtaking could not be successful. Plus the yellow car was at that time pretty far from the red car, and it was not easy for him to see the yellow car in mirrors.

The contact occurs at 00:14, pretty far from the appex of the curve.
To avoid the situation, the red car should have maybe turn in a little sooner, or drive more on the middle of the track when he was clearly in front of the yellow car (00:12)

My two cents (not an expert) , the yellow car is faulty.
I mean, I would have probably driven exactly like the red car, and would have been surprised exactly like I suppose it has been surprised .
but it is a race event, nothing else. All happens within 2seconds after all. (between 00:12 and 00:14)

 

[Patrik Trefny]

I didn't intend the race. I am neutral
In my opinion, the attacker is guilty (Situation B). At exactly 00:13, the red car is approaching the curve at the right place and begins to turn in, exactly on the racing line . Due to his position at that time, (front wheel not exactly at the same level as the red car back wheel) the yellow car should have anticipated that overtaking could not be successful. Plus the yellow car was at that time pretty far from the red car, and it was not easy for him to see the yellow car in mirrors.

The contact occurs at 00:14, pretty far from the appex of the curve.
To avoid the situation, the red car should have maybe turn in a little sooner, or drive more on the middle of the track when he was clearly in front of the yellow car (00:12)

My two cents (not an expert) , the yellow car is faulty.
I mean, I would have probably driven exactly like the red car, and would have been surprised exactly like I suppose it has been surprised .
but it is a race event, nothing else. All happens within 2seconds after all. (between 00:12 and 00:14)

sure, I admit my fault. Apologize to Claudio. in the race I saw it differently and wrongly evaluated the situation in front of me

 

[Lars Rystedt]

Now due to the quit you lost the right to report the other drivers formally and I'll have to give you a little "warning" for this according to our rules.
/QUOTE]

I'll take the warning, no problem

 

[RasmusP]

@ionONE1 yeah, you sadly get a little warning too. Next time just go back to pits and give me a little explanation. I'm not forcing anyone to stay at the server if he doesn't want to. Just don't rage quit

@Patrik Trefny that's a really tricky one! The rules are not completely clear for the exact point the wheels have to overlap. It varies between the braking point and the turn in point. Due to different lines (turn in point varies) and different braking points it's kind of a thing of experience and watching at things at a whole.

In my opinion the red car should've give you space but you are still the one to blame. It's really on the edge between a divebomb and sufficient overlap.
The reason why it's your "fault" in my opinion is that this turn simply isn't a safe spot for an overtake. These righthanders with the Tatuus are almost taken flat out and it's already hard to not go too wide on a clean hotlap.
Now even if the red car would've seen you, he probably wouldn't have been able to slow down enough to not go too wide while giving you space.

In short: even if we could agree on that you had sufficient overlap and the other driver should've given you space, you forced him to unsettle his car and probably going too wide and off track.
The overlap wasn't there when the red car began to brake so there was no way for the red car to slow down enough safely.

Sorry for this long text, as said, it's a tricky one! So while I'm not experienced enough to know who's exactly at fault there, I can tell that you took too much risk.

Not blaming you though, these kind of things just happen! Happened to me, happened to others!

And I really like that we are able to discuss something like this so we all can learn from it So again thumbs up for caring and posting it here

 

[Kek700]

I have noticed that these tatuus cars really let go "explosively" making controlling
them during the accident very difficult. Adding to this, the cars that are in the vicinity
find it especially hard to avoid the carnage from initial situation.
Virtually all the collisions I have had this past 12 months in race department have come
from the tatuus races. Maybe it is just a coincidence?

 

[BhZ]

I have noticed that these tatuus cars really let go "explosively" making controlling
them during the accident very difficult. Adding to this, the cars that are in the vicinity
find it especially hard to avoid the carnage from initial situation.
Virtually all the collisions I have had this past 12 months in race department have come
from the tatuus races. Maybe it is just a coincidence?

Considering most of the races here on RD are either on a TT cup or a mazda mx5, i think it's quite normal that a car that requires more effort and practice to master will be harder to control and so you'll see more incidents. The reason why the car lose control quickly is because if you slide, aero will stop working as intended and the amount of grip will decrease massively.

@Patrik Trefny I'm not a fan of general rules like the one showed above as they can't be applied every time. In that particular incident the main problem is that you were too far when the car in front started braking.

 

[RasmusP]

I have noticed that these tatuus cars really let go "explosively" making controlling
them during the accident very difficult. Adding to this, the cars that are in the vicinity
find it especially hard to avoid the carnage from initial situation.
Virtually all the collisions I have had this past 12 months in race department have come
from the tatuus races. Maybe it is just a coincidence?

You are probably right and I often think about swapping the Tatuus to another car. But at the same time it can provide absolute intense and good racing like no other car really does.
The thing with the Tatuus is that you are so damn agile in terms of braking and moving left/right on the track.
So you really have to keep some safety distance and be careful to not touch.
But that includes that if someone has the overlap and you know he is faster: you let him by, give space and better think about when to get back on him instead of trying to block the overtake from happening!

Also you don't have brake lights so better keep some distance in braking zones OR go a bit left or right instead of directly behind someone.

If I find the time I will try to create some incident examples and "nice overtake" examples. Put them all in a video and link it in every Event Thread.

Here is a video of me and @BhZ battling for place 2. I don't wanna sound like a douche bag, but:
That's how you do it!

btw @Ottopallen you must be Claudio, right? I had a hell of a week so I totally missed that you are not using your real name. Please fill in your real name in the "real name box" when you go into your profile settings Also: were you with us in TeamSpeak? I'm not sure. Please join us the next time.

And the last thing: it seems like you are not using Helicorsa. Please install it for the next race, I'm sure you wouldn't have had the incident with @Patrik Trefny if you would've seen him coming that close

Little note for @Patrik Trefny if you upload videos containing some of the names, please put it at least to "not listed" so only the ones who have the link to your video can actually see it

 

[Kek700]

I have a good understanding of single seaters , perhaps I as usual did not explain
myself properly. Spent 30 years driving tunnels with wings , just wings, and formula
fords from the seventies to the nineties, so I under stand how virtually
Impossible they are to catch when they for some reason let go when you are caught
Unawares.
But also can be quite manageable when you are prepared for that eventuality.
I have hit a tyre bank backward at over 100 mph and did not have time to even
think about, it was all over before I knew it.
I spend most of my time navigating around accidents in rookie class reasonably well
but I noticed that if there are 4 or 5 cars in the vicinity of a accident , it quite often takes
everyone out.
They are so light and quick in an accident that people are just passengers.
They move so fast in an accident that people who are in the vicinity find it very hard
to judge an avoiding action.
The problem to me seems that people are treating them like the Mazda , Audi, just
dive bombing or take silly risks with out concern for the consequences.
It may only involve two cars but before you know it 4 or 5 cars are suddenly
Involved.
How you solve this I do not know.

Sorry about the rant, had a two races.

 

[Ken Bell]

Just have to comment Ernie. You did a couple of really good following and subsequent overtaking on me in both races. Second races I did say to you in TS what a good overtake you did. So, from me, your driving was fast and clean.

 

[Kek700]

Thank you for that Ken, nice of you to say so.

 

[RainhamIron]

Here is a video of me and @BhZ battling for place 2.

Nice example of intense racing while still leaving each other enough room. Knowing when and how to concede a place cleanly is just as important as the other way around

 

[RasmusP]

@BrianUK
@Neilski looked into your false-positive-cuts and it looks like this:

It seems that the white line in that corner already counts as kerb-surface. Stupid AC detections strikes again...

I will adjust my standard Post I link in every race event thread and mention that in some corners it isn't flawless and you have to stay a bit further away from the white line.

I do hope though that you can accept it and that you agree with me/us, that detecting a cut a few mm too early is still better than not detecting this:

 

[BrianUK]

@RasmusP I had a quick look at the turn before Dingle Dell too, as that kerb was getting me. Turns out it's the same thing as you posted above, even though the rear wheel was fully on the white line it's classed as cutting. Will just have to live with it.

Would my lap times still come up as red in the lap times when I look at them while in the pits? I know that in race 2 I didn't have a single red lap, but not sure if that's just because it's not being so obvious, or whether I actually was in the lines at all times.

 

[RasmusP]

Thanks for understanding first

That's an interesting question... I honestly don't know. When watching the replay it definitely won't tell you at all if invalidated or not.
When sitting in the pits you mean when you look at the timetable or something else?

Sadly we don't have a tool at the moment to "decrypt" the json files although Neil has a look every now and then to figure out a way.

From next week on I will run sTracker for this server so we will be able to see all cuts. But I won't provide the link in public because of our laptime etc. policy.
If you want to get it just PM me

 

[Case_]

@BrianUK
@Neilski looked into your false-positive-cuts and it looks like this:

It seems that the white line in that corner already counts as kerb-surface. Stupid AC detections strikes again...

That's not a false positive, though, is it? I mean, there's definitely more than two wheels beyond the edge of the white line here.

Sure, when the detection is this uncompromising, it could be annoying - I know I was pretty annoyed at times by the cut detection at Brands this week as well (did only get like one or two valid Q laps in because of that, after all, and I'm usually pretty careful about the white lines), but when looking at it objectively, obviously the reason was I was just running a bit too wide at places and the detection wasn't really at fault there, I was.

 

[RasmusP]

That's not a false positive, though, is it? I mean, there's definitely more than two wheels beyond the edge of the white line here.

Sure, when the detection is this uncompromising, it could be annoying - I know I was pretty annoyed at times by the cut detection at Brands this week as well (did only get like one or two valid Q laps in because of that, after all, and I'm usually pretty careful about the white lines), but when looking at it objectively, obviously the reason was I was just running a bit too wide at places and the detection wasn't really at fault there, I was.

Afaik, but we really have to search for an official answer:
As long as you touch the white line with any point of the tyre patch, it's okay. Only the moment you completely leave the white line with at least 3 tyres it becomes a cut.
Is it a cut if the tyre doesn't touch the line or do you need to see it from above so "hovering" is still okay?
Questions I don't have the answers for but I think the no cut mod does what it should. If it's a bit too harsh we can adjust I think.
Better than without it in my opinion