Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Mr Latte]

thanks for answering my comments in the Simhub.

I am curious about what you will find out in regards to these DAYTONAUDIO pucs considering I am already impressed by what 2 units can deliver with Simhub software driving the tactile effects by zone/type.
Talking about software solution, as you mentioned this, I can see that evolutions of VOICEMEETER are available like the Banana and Potato variants.

is that the type of software you are looking into?

VOICEMEETER standard has allowed me to output Game audio from my TV and tactile efefcts from the pucs as I advised in my post and there are some audio adjustments available in there but I can only see spatialization or gain, no frequency tweaking unless I miss that

Hey, no problems, early testing is showing one of the exciters to really excel, compared to some of the other units. Each has their own character output (some will be similar) but often we have to tone down certain peak Hz to help then better portray or boost others.

When a tactile unit is on the actual seat this is maybe more apparent as it is in direct contact and when using audio as a source. So EQ can be very handy to re-shape the unit's output to the desired preference, of course with some limitations of how each unit itself performs.

A problem with going into specific professional quality software for EQ or Crossover is that the price can be not that far off a hardware option.

I think the best option may be this as it is community-based but I have not yet looked deeply into it. APO EQ which appears to offer both EQ and Crossover control options. This also comes in different variants, it is not the same as PEACE APO EQ that I have shared in the past.

 

[millen]

Thanks for your reply Mr Latte,
I'll have a look around and see if I can find some adx units. Seems parts express don't have then in stock at the moment, but haven't really looked anywhere else just yet
Maybe hopefully Ind some local supplier. (Australia)

Curious to read your thoughts on the Dayton Pucks. I actually have 4 of those already, but they are the 16ohm versions...

 

[anton_Chez]

Not sure how much of this stuff is available in Aus. I'm in Melbourne and I order most of my gear from overseas as people just don't stock it here and when they do it's out of stock for WAY too long. Something like the little pucks, however, might have a bit more luck. Look around, you never know. Quick search engine run will let you know.

 

[Mr Latte]

Yes seems ADX is out of stock, checked a few places I know of.

Shaker Center says in-stock but the alternative I have said in this thread a few times is to consider (UK/Europe) the Reckhorn 200i with (Gold Connectors).

I got delivery of the additional exciter I had ordered yesterday (Dayton DAEX32EP-4 Thruster 32mm). Had a quick test with it last night and pleased. Differences between the two I now have in their output are noticeable at 30-40Hz, 40-80Hz and around 150Hz swaying in favor of one or the other.

Both of these units I would say from early tests are, really excellent and better than the Dayton Puc. The bass punch these little units can generate (30-50Hz) is quite impressive but they will deliver more detail with higher frequencies as well over the Pucs, which I feel is a bonus. This will benefit not just "audio-tactile" but effects like RPM that can take advantage of wider frequency ranges and harmonics.

Both of these would be really worth considering for the back/sides of a seat.
For instance effects like Speed on one set and RPM on another is working well and I think thats an installation approach to consider having upto 3x pairs of these for shoulder/sides and lower spine. Then placing certain effects to each set. This way you feel clear distinction for the effects each is outputting and we limit how many effects each unit has to work with.

Also, the output of these little shakers with direct installation to seat can be overbearing in the 30-50Hz range. As these are peaks the units have, we may need to lower the dB of them with EQ and then apply more general volume if desired. Some people make the mistake with units that they apply additional dB to what already are peak frequencies from a unit. This can then limit the volume you use and can make other frequencies from the unit harder to feel as the peaks are most dominant.



This video is an example to test for common peak bass at 40-50Hz not being too overwhelming that many tactile units exhibit. EQ can really help with getting an output character you prefer or enjoy more. This may even be something you want to vary for different source material, games or mood.

Will go into more detail with later comparison.
However these exciters will now form part of my own installation for how I want to use them but they also could bring excellent immersion at low cost if used in multiple pairs. Testing will be done and shared how well it goes.

 

[boern69]

here is a pic of the absorber i made the best runs with 8 pcs

they are less stable compared to normal flat ones

 

[Mr Latte]

Size comparison for the "Dayton Exciters" and with some other units.
You won't believe that these tiny exciters produce the output they can. It's a bit bizarre. They indeed do seem to be perfect to be combined with typical tactile units for the main purpose of highlighting specific effects for greater detailing.







I also see a superb potential for some people to consider these on their own as affordable tactile and to have possibly even 6 units attached to a seat that I believe could bring better results than vibrational cushion or seat pads that use small motors.

We can have effects deployed exactly to specific body zone/regions for individual detection and combined immersion. This can't be achieved with the typical installation of 4 tactile transducers/shakers on corners or tactile transducers/shakers under seat and pedals. This approach is just further experimentation to tests I have already done for my own build. So not something I have seen others try to do (with exciters) but early testing has been promising and surprised me how good it can be.

Already eliminated the Monacor and HDN8 units while much bigger they are more restricted in how/where we can install them.

I will tinker with more on my seat in the coming week or so. Placing different effects to the different units as Shakeit (SBS) makes this very simple to do. Also comparing the same effect on different units for A/B comparisons with different frequencies and settings.

Additional Testing - Seat Back/Sides
2x Dayton Puc
2x DAEX32U
2x DAEX32EP


6x exciter units possible placement*. Seat base/rails section can be kept for conventional installation, using common or larger tactile.


More testing to help confirm but on an early batch of comparisons, I would say that the popular "Dayton Puc" is outperformed by both of these exciters. All 3 can easily be stuck on to surfaces.

 

[Mr Latte]

Another example of the methods I use for audio-tactile testing (with headphones).
Here I am generating a custom "waterfall" by altering the rumble and woosh sounds it has.
Maybe you prefer "thunder" or freaking out to "bilatural beats" or this "madness"

This proves to be handy for testing the exciters and then using (only) the soundcard EQ to function as a crossover. Basically killing off other frequencies at the 250Hz slider and upwards. We then can also compare the low bass and midbass sounds and how each unit reacts via +dB via the soundcards EQ. This lets me easily feel how one unit compares to another with different frequency bands.


Notice the soundcard has all sliders over 250Hz fully reduced, also in this test the iNuke DSP crossover is turned off.

Audio Tactile Control / Soundcard Issues & Limitations?
It seems possible to use the EQ of the soundcard to act as a limiter/crossover (by this approach) but what we then need if wanting (audio-tactile) to be seperate from audio listening speakers/headphones. Basically individual EQ controls for each on their own soundcards.

An example of avoiding this issue would be Oculus Rift for "primary audio" via HDMI. Then a soundcard used as another audio output with its own EQ just for the audio-tactile.

We need a secondary soundcard to also output (windows primary audio) but have its own usable EQ functionality. IIRC windows now has a feature for this (audio mirroring) the primary soundcard to also a secondary one. What I do not know is if this is before the EQ stage or if secondary EQ for the secondary soundcard is possible?

Telemetry Tactile Only Usage
It is, of course, possible to use this approach for these exciters via a soundcard and have it set as a telemetry-based soundcard for Shakeit or other software. Then apply whatever EQ to it is needed. This will then greatly reduce and mostly remove the annoying audible sound or speaker like operation the tactile exciters or TST units can emit.

 

[boern69]

Looks good !

I got my new carbon seat "tillet 3.5" at a weight of 2kg I will test to build a rig
in wpc profile only half as heavy as alu ->
hope for better tactile immersion and easier movement.

pics will follow

 

[Mr Latte]

During testing last night I discovered how good these exciters are in bringing sensations we normally will miss with common transducers and Buttkickers and using telemetry only tactile solutions.

New Tactile Detailing Via @ 100Hz Of Additional Felt Sensations!

Testing via AC
With using "Game Audio" only for tactile it was possible with the exciters to feel much more warmth and smoothness to certain effects. Examples to mention are various cars own unique engine and RPM sounds, going off track, richness to grass rumble, a hollow boxyness feeling with that brrrrrr sound some curbs or specific tarmac areas. It was even possible to feel the "wind noise" effect from the games audio.


Different cars will suit different EQ as their audible character greatly varies. What settings work well also depends on the general volume/gain being used. Often we can reduce a peaking slider level to boost others and increase the overall gain/volume.

So, by simply increasing the 125 and 250 sliders for the EQ which on most units will do very little as they do not operate well or at all with these high bass frequencies. Totally different story on these exciters, oh man it's just a great addition to try out and have. I expected some additional detail but this is awesome.

Custom EQ For Cars
From an audio-tactile perspective, it would be very easy to have different EQ for various cars and have the EQ applied that you want or like. I can 100% assure people now that this approach will give you a feeling from cars you will not get from telemetry only software, be it Simvibe and engine quad-stream with harmonics. You just do not get the engine/exhaust characteristics of different cars by doing that.

Exciters With Audio Tactile & Telemetry Based Tactile
When we add in simple but effective RPM and Speed sensations via SBS it adds even further energy to the revs and excitement different cars can produce. It can be an awesome combination and guys that's just testing with 2x of these £20 quid exciters and no additional tactile.

These exciters are tiny but what they can bring in immersion is big....
I did not expect them to be so good with 30Hz at all or bring so much extra detail.

I think having a combination of both (DAEX32U & DAEX32EP) rather than 6 all the same, could be best as certain effects with the different peak output resonance/frequencies may feel better on specific units. One is much better with just under and at 30Hz than the other which helps some effects sensation. While the stronger @ 40-70Hz feel from the other unit and a bit of a higher peak @ 150Hz can help enhance others. Although much of this may be a personal preference too.

 

[andycolh]

What do you mean with audio tactile?

 

[Mr Latte]

What do you mean with audio tactile?

Using just that, "actual system or game audio" but because it is full range audio, we then use crossover control to limit the range from 20k to 200Hz. That prevents the units being very audible but still gives us the full general bass range. Notice that most subwoofers with crossovers are limited to approx 200Hz with the odd one at about 250Hz.

The units still have some audible sound but this can be avoided if we reduce the sliders for the 125Hz and 250Hz frequencies. However, doing that will lose detailing. The seat itself becomes like a 4D speaker that you feel and hear. It helps represent the audio/reverb or sound like a real car enclosed cockpit may have.

Real cars engines, manifolds, intake and exhaust sounds are very technical and very different. Part of all this is captured within real recordings (if done well). It's embedded in the audio. We are not even close to touching the surface of real engines with Simvibe and using basic tones or harmonics. This is okay for an energy variation for RPM values but it does nothing to bring the atmosphere and feeling different cars can have. This is why I have always pursued having both "audio-tactile" and "telemetry based tactile" tactile work together. Neither one replaces the other as each brings their own benefits.

These exciters are typically used to convert objects/materials into speakers. So different materials will produce different results. My seat is carbon-fibre at the back but I expect this to work well on many general tub seats.

Here is what these "exciters" are created for....

 

[andycolh]

So i can use one output from soundcard to transducers instead of speakers?

 

[Mr Latte]

So i can use one output from soundcard to transducers instead of speakers?

We can duplicate the output so that you have two.
The problem with doing this is it is one soundcard with split/duplicated outputs.

So when you adjust the EQ what is going to happen is that it will affect both the audio-tactile and the headphones or speakers. We dont want to reduce the speaker/headphones from 20Khz to only 200Hz as that will kill much of the audible sound.


Therefore the best solution is either hardware we can apply individual EQ after it has left the soundcard. Or to find a solution with software and windows that lets us have dual soundcards of the "windows primary audio" but these have individual EQ. One for EQ for the audio listening as normal and a second one for limiting and controlling the bass for the tactile.

I hope this makes it easier to understand?

 

[andycolh]

Yes it does. I will try this, Just use my headphones meanwhile and test auditactile.

 

[Mr Latte]

Yes it does. I will try this, Just use my headphones meanwhile and test auditactile.

When you or others have a Y adapter or something to duplicate the output for (Headphones) and (Tactile Unit) then click on the links I have shared to feel them whilst listening. Then play around with your EQ controls.

Ultimately if its a typical tactile unit it may not offer much over 80Hz in felt sensation, this is where these "exciters" are different. Most common/cheap tactile will work best in the 40-80Hz range.

High Frequency Bass Extension
So these "exciters" greatly extend the felt tactile upper range that is missing to @200Hz. Thats a huge amount of detail or added immersion to most peoples conventional tactile transducers.

Low Frequency Bass Extension
To extend the lower range below 30Hz for true deep bass then that can be achieved with higher end and more capable units like for example the largest BK LFE or Concert models.

This brings much more added low rumble energy and depth to specific effects or sound elements. Which brings more realism and additional boldness to the felt sensation.

 

[boern69]

here the pics

70% wood

 

[Mr Latte]

Okay so, I started attaching more of the preferred units to my seat for further testing.
Going with the layout shown previously,

One for each side bolster of the seat

This one is the stronger unit, even though it is rated as only 20w.
Two more of these units have been ordered for the lower spine region.


I had the 40W units here but decided to move them to the shoulder area.


Here we go, one of 40w units for each shoulder region, cables can be nicely routed along the lip/edge.


Seem to stick quite well to not fully flat surfaces as well.


Experimentation:
The plan is to test different effects on the different channels to determine what combination feels best. I will likely operate these as 3 stereo pairs for specific effects deployment and detail enhancing. So far have tested with 4 so will be interesting to see what can be achieved with 6 units.

They will be combined with my main tactile but these on their own perform wonderfully well for the money and I expect will surprise anyone how well they do work for their sizes.


Dayton Puc - Comparison





While these could produce minor energy from 25Hz (with a lot of EQ boost) for me they started to give decent output from 30Hz upwards. I also found they could go just above 120Hz in finer detailing but with very limited energy and sensation. The Dayton Pucs, did not have the low-end energy of the exciters in particular to the DAEX32U-4 at the 30-40Hz range.

Also in comparison with the higher frequencies, they fall short of what the exciters shown managed. So they felt like they were missing a good amount of the additional detailing that we have found these exciters excel at bringing. The Dayton Pucs are however available in 8ohm and for some people that may suit an amp they have. Overall to me, these while producing not bad results for the money they cost are not as good as the exciters tested. Additionally for mounting they are much bigger and bulkier too.

Hope it helps some to consider trying their own comparisons with perhaps Dayton Pucs they may already own or were considering buying. For sure these have been for some time, a very popular budget-friendly choice and entry-level units many people have opted to enter into tactile immersion with.

 

[wajdi]

I asked this before but never got a response.

What is the best frequency that I should set my Amplifiers with Simvibe ?

Now I have finally a motion cockpit, but I think that tactiles still a must for me.
I have 2 on my seat and 2 on the rear of my cockpit and one under my pedals running with Simvibe ( engine rpm, gears, small bumps and textures).

 

[Mr Latte]

Plenty of Simvibe users about that have small BK units and 8020 builds.
Work together if its Simvibe you want to still use. I think a lot of people are still confused with Simvibe or uncertain how to get the most out of it. Some just use similar to default settings and use the Autotune feature.

Your amp will output the (center values) of frequencies you have the software generating via the settings, you can control. What you don't see unless looking into FFT or Spectrum analyzer is the combined frequencies generated and including harmonics. It makes sense to use frequencies for effects your units work well with.

Surely however after all these years, someone has several decent user profiles done you can download them, discuss or tweak with others.

I really have used it very little in the last 18 month - 2 years and certainly don't see me going back to it with the improvements Simhub has coming with the Shakeit update. Give it a try if you haven't already. Much nicer user interface and not limited to how Simvibe has awkward CM and EM modes.

 

[Dan.E.B]

Is anyone using a Behringer NX 1000D
With Buttkicker Gamer 2s or mini concerts?
If so could you please screenshot your amp settings as I replaced my Buttkicker amps months ago and can’t get the NX100D to perform close to my Buttkicker amps
If you could share them I’d really appreciate it
Thanks