Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Hiro Abe]

I finally got serious with my vibration isolation and bought a set of isolators similar to what @Michal Burisin has installed. The format is a little different but the concept of the isolators is the same as his.

Below shows how I installed them in my 8020 rig. I wanted to try and keep how much these isolators had to contend with regarding weight to a minimum. The above are rated for 40kg/88lb nominal load per unit, 80kg/170lb max allowable load on the z axis (up/down).

As Michal had reported with his rig, the difference is remarkable. There is a lot more vibration felt as well as the fidelity of those vibrations. According to the wife, the vibes reaching the floor have greatly reduced (I was running them pretty hot at the time). The LFE you see in the above pic is paired with another located under the front of my seat. Currently, I've been trying SimHub's ShakeIt and really liking how you tailor control. I currently have front l/r vibes going to the front LFE and rear l/r vibes to the rear and gear change to both. Still early days with ShakeIt but curbs feel fantastic! I did try a l/r orientation with the LFEs but even though I could feel the stereo effect, it just didn't do that much for me. My current config is much more tidy and suits me just fine.

@Mr Latte has always preached the importance of isolation and he certainly is on the mark. I recommend implementing serious isolation to get the most out of your tactile set-up.

 

[Xr4eyes]

Hello everyone.

Ive just ordered myself an 80/20 rig and I currently have two adx shakers, I'm currently deciding how to mount them to the frame.
I've read various posts and links in this thread and there are some great ideas but I haven't seen anybody mention the adx mounts that are on sale at shackercentre.

https://shakercentre.co.uk/adx-mounting-bracket.html

Does anybody have any experience with them or any thoughts about how they perform, I would usually be inclined to order them and see but with money being tight and at £45 each, it's a bit too much for me to take a punt on

 

[anton_Chez]

I'd wait to get your chassis before buying something like that. The mounts are more expensive than your bass shaker. You'd be surprised what you can achieve with 80 20 even with spare bits lying around the house.

 

[Ceolmor]

I agree with @anton_Chez Get your rig built and setup before considering how you will attach the ADXs. You should then find cheaper and better alternatives to the ADX mounts you've seen. For example:

For my Buttkickers, I purchased two custom brackets to fit my 80/20 rig (under seat and under pedals) made to my order in 5mm mild steel on-line from The Metal Store for a total of £58 including shipping. Emailed my requirements (see below) and they quoted and then made them.

Later I had two brackets made locally in aluminium, as below, but could probably have got them cheaper from The Metal Store in 5mm mild steel, without the corners rounded off.

Lots of options. You could even test first with offcuts of wood.

 

[scottiedawg66]

Wood works! I have an aura mounted to a 3/8 plywood board that sits under the seat of my flight rig. I also use aluminum plate on my sim rig. Check out the video I posted a few posts up. @Xr4eyes I think it will.help give you context

 

[scottiedawg66]

@Hiro Abe Where did you find those isolators? I want to give them a go

I finally got serious with my vibration isolation and bought a set of isolators similar to what @Michal Burisin has installed. The format is a little different but the concept of the isolators is the same as his.

Below shows how I installed them in my 8020 rig. I wanted to try and keep how much these isolators had to contend with regarding weight to a minimum. The above are rated for 40kg/88lb nominal load per unit, 80kg/170lb max allowable load on the z axis (up/down).

As Michal had reported with his rig, the difference is remarkable. There is a lot more vibration felt as well as the fidelity of those vibrations. According to the wife, the vibes reaching the floor have greatly reduced (I was running them pretty hot at the time). The LFE you see in the above pic is paired with another located under the front of my seat. Currently, I've been trying SimHub's ShakeIt and really liking how you tailor control. I currently have front l/r vibes going to the front LFE and rear l/r vibes to the rear and gear change to both. Still early days with ShakeIt but curbs feel fantastic! I did try a l/r orientation with the LFEs but even though I could feel the stereo effect, it just didn't do that much for me. My current config is much more tidy and suits me just fine.

@Mr Latte has always preached the importance of isolation and he certainly is on the mark. I recommend implementing serious isolation to get the most out of your tactile set-up.

 

[Hiro Abe]

@Hiro Abe Where did you find those isolators? I want to give them a go

Here you go. Look for metric shear mounts. I recommend you order over the phone. Even though it looks like it, they are not set up for online ordering. They seem to be geared towards working with business clients and purchase orders.

 

[scottiedawg66]

Found these on Misumi
https://us.misumi-ec.com/vona2/deta...MDM000056016072210000184751|17"}&Tab=codeList
Wonder if 180n (40 lbs per unit x 4 units) is enough for a seat mount for a 200 lbs driver?

 

[Hiro Abe]

Judging by the specs of the 5 they have to offer, I would say those on Misumi are the same ones offered on vibrationmounts.com though I find the way they list their specs a bit odd. Anyway, I wouldn't go softer than the ones I got which would be the KE-40s on Misumi. There's a fair amount of side to side play but the front/back is stiff enough to withstand the forces needed on a stiff load cell brake. I'm north of 200 and with the weight of the 8020 frame, two LFEs and my seat there is only slight deflection when I sit down. In my mind, that gives plenty of headroom for these units to do their thing.

My .02 cents.

 

[Bunnta]

Hey guys, I'm about to buy an buttkicker bk-lfe without any amp. I'm still too green about audio stuff. Is there a cheap alternative amp that I could buy just to power 1 transducer? Unless multi channel amp are decent price?

 

[anton_Chez]

For the LFE you're going to need a decent amp. I'd start with a decent 2 channel amp as once you add one unit it's likely you're going to want to add at least another one down the road. You could go with a mono if you know you only want one but again you're LFE is going to need a good chunk of power to work efficiently so I wouldn't spend the money on a big unit if you don't intend to give it enough power.

 

[Mr Latte]

For isolaters, it certainly is very much about testing, in some cases it may be good to buy two options to help determine how they compare. This can mean more cost, more hassle, more time but knowing you achieved good results. So I always find it interesting reading/seeing how well some applications people have tried and worked.

I have a small fortune in isolation materials sitting around to do tests with.
Need more metal plates and materials to even get cracking with the build but it can be such a tore with the work it involves..

Vibration noise below in other rooms is a major factor for me as it might be for some others. Yet I have had to totally re-consider how with my new build, what isolation it uses and where. This due to seeking a future SFX base frame to also work with the general tactile I have and the steel/chrome tubing the seat/pedals sections are built from.

I believe the strong energy the motion actuators has for bumps etc, can deliver the bumps vibration through/beyond the isolation that may be used with direct mounted tactile on seat pedals. Yet that still help maintain tactile energy with those units on the seat/pedal sections.

Even in this scenario, it may be required to finding a balance in the isolation/materials used or the energy levels set from the source. Also something not too soft that it makes the motion feel weird.

Additionally, an issue In my case to then seek to have the SFX based actuators sitting on an isolated/sound-deadening supported platform to help prevent the vibration noises below.

 

[Xr4eyes]

Thank you all for your replies, I’m definitely going to wait till my rig is built before making any decisions, i will say that i’ll Probably give the mounts i linked a miss. Anton put it into perspective with comparing them to the cost of my shakers!

@Ceolmor Thank you for detailed reply, I’ve also read you build log. Looking at the pictures from your log I see you have a hole in the centre of your mount above the shaker. Does it serve any purpose?

@scottiedawg66 Thank you for the video I’ve watched it and as you said put things in context.

Seeing your two different mounting styles under the seat just makes me realise I’ve got to try out what works for my own rig. I wont be able to build it for several weeks but i’ll Post some images when i have.

Thanks again

 

[Bunnta]

Thanks anton, I swiftly cancelled the transaction. The amplifier were way above my budget. Considering a few dayton pucks but not entirely sure on what amps if I wanted to run 1 in each cornera and 1 under the seat. I'm still too green at this stuff.

 

[anton_Chez]

@Bunnta There is a LOT of info about a lot of things here and on other forums. Do take some time to read through threads that relate to the things you are interested in and it will help make things less overwhelming.

Many people are willing to help so just drop questions when you can't actually find what you're looking for.

 

[Mr Latte]

Thank you all for your replies, I’m definitely going to wait till my rig is built before making any decisions, i will say that i’ll Probably give the mounts i linked a miss. Anton put it into perspective with comparing them to the cost of my shakers!

@Ceolmor Thank you for detailed reply, I’ve also read you build log. Looking at the pictures from your log I see you have a hole in the centre of your mount above the shaker. Does it serve any purpose?

@scottiedawg66 Thank you for the video I’ve watched it and as you said put things in context.

Seeing your two different mounting styles under the seat just makes me realise I’ve got to try out what works for my own rig. I wont be able to build it for several weeks but i’ll Post some images when i have.

Thanks again

The BK mounts are shown below.
BK LFE, & BK Concert plates are made of steel and have not only space for underneath the shaker piston area but also have "Carriage Bolt Holes" as these prevent the unit from moving at all. The BK Advance sofa based mount is made I think from aluminum and is shaped to fit the feet of the unit but fall away from underneath the shaker.

I believe the reason for gaps beneath the shaker is to help limit the piston pang if the internal piston hits the casing. The BK/Concert units feet only raise the main body a few mm from the surface they are placed. Its possible, we can use some rubber based materials under the feet if a user wants to help give the unit more vertical leverage but such I suppose is experimental.

Testing and trying things with tactile is part of the exploration.

 

[Mr Latte]

With some, informing me recently in other threads what "immersion" potentially can or can't be achieved with tactile for the various effects available and in particular recent talk on G Force based effects. I do have to politely disagree with their views based on my own experiences and question the depth of their own testing/experiences. Of course, taking into account the hardware they use or how it was used being different to my own tests. Furthermore, if they make such claims/opinions they give, based merely on their own presumptions and not from actual real testing?

Such things, just help spur me on in seeking to do more within my own build and with the testing/experimentation, I already have gathered and done. For while I do not see tactile replace what motion can do. I will continue to attempt to take tactile immersion to new limits, based on testing and exploring creative possibilities as that's just something I enjoy doing and is something my own build is being built around.

Going Beyond Typical Limitations
So with recent testing, I have decided not to now integrate a single central BK Concert/TST for "engine/gear/mono" effects. One reason for this was it bridged the left/right hand sides and I am keen on maintaining the very best stereo effect sensations but also I have been experimenting with the "G Force" based vibrational effects. These, of course, being acceleration/deceleration and lateral G positional placed vibrations and it has to be said, rather entertaining element in what the tactile can deliver or add to a users rig.

I wanted to dedicate a tactile unit primarily but not exclusively for these "G" based effects but also help better alleviate issues with how effects like "speed/rpm" were being deployed. What I found in testing was that I could have "speed" placed on the outer channels to work with the positional effects for "bumps/wheelslip*" as speed becomes more active at higher speeds whereas bumps are less important here. So the two effects were not at their operational peaks at the same time. This is a crucial thing to factor if we seek to find ways to better deliver individual effects sensations, is taking note of which/how each are operational.

For instance, having "RPM" separated and on different units meant the tactile was free to produce the rpm sensations and detail better without also trying to deliver, speed,bumps,surfaces,slip and "G" based effects too. Yet I did find the G based effects worked well with the rpm sensations. Here we find rpm activity at its peak within each gear but we can easily have the "G Force" based sensation work over the rpm intensity to bring if desired, very high levels of deep ultra low frequencies and these being deployed as positional vibrations to relate to the G based effect in operation.

I am not the typical user, as I purposely seek to go well beyond the limitations that a typical single tactile unit (per channel) has. Also I am fully aware of how we can create a "mush" of vibrations by adding too many effects for a single unit to try and generate and maintain good detailing. These are evident in my own promotion of Dual Role or recently in testing Triple Role, based channel operation for effects frequencies on that channel to be split over more than just one unit.

Dual Role - Triple Role - Specific Roles = Combined Integration
So for my test-build, the next step will be to have on the seat section, 5 tactile units per side and no central tactile at all. This also increases the engine/gear based effects from instead of operating on twin (front/back) BK Concert/TST based pairs to now having 4x BK Concert and 4x TST based pairs to deliver the engine rpm. That will also greatly help to produce much more engaging engine energy output when we look at building specific engine effects for different types of cars.



So left/right side of seat is to now have 10 combined units installed.
Oh come on, is such even possible, is such even needed? Well, I believe such is possible. As to how/when/where they are used needs to be considered, rather than just looking at the quantity.

This is the challenge I have set myself in successfully installing such to the seat frame section I will design and build. It is the only way I can then test combined operation, for the different things I have already tested/experimented with individually.....

• BK Concert & BK LFE via dual BK LFE Plates
  Combining TST underneath LFE, mounted to steel tubing frame for Triple Role operation
  Seeking to achieve maximum energy & detail for positional effects
  
  
• BK Concert (inverted) via BK Concert Plate.
  Combining an offset TST underneath for Dual Role operation.
  Seeking to achieve improved application for specific effect roles, these potentially being
  (G-Forces / RPM / Gear)

 

[Hiro Abe]

I recently bought the Mid Ohio track in iRacing. I know the track from other sims so getting acclimated was pretty quick. Apparently, the kerbings at Mid Ohio have pretty pronounced rumble strips. The bouncing i was getting had me nearly laughing they just felt so right. I'm REALLY enjoying my setup and don't feel i need to take it any further. Implementing those isolators really did the trick.

Um... I partially take back the "don't need to take it any further" statement. I still would like to implement an engine beat to my satisfaction. Just can't seem to get it quite right.

 

[Mr Latte]

I recently bought the Mid Ohio track in iRacing. I know the track from other sims so getting acclimated was pretty quick. Apparently, the kerbings at Mid Ohio have pretty pronounced rumble strips. The bouncing i was getting had me nearly laughing they just felt so right. I'm REALLY enjoying my setup and don't feel i need to take it any further. Implementing those isolators really did the trick.

Um... I partially take back the "don't need to take it any further" statement. I still would like to implement an engine beat to my satisfaction. Just can't seem to get it quite right.

Whats good is that your enjoying it man...

I played around with ideas, doing various tests and some installations but for me my mindset has been more like "how do I take it further"

So today I looked at doing temp placement for how my tactile will be installed underneath the custom seat frame. Here is one side of the seat section, seems it is possible to fit in all the units. This below is only 2 channels but is combining my own ideas for Triple Role & Dual Role integration for seperation of different groups of effects.

TST 429 / TST 209 / BK LFE / BK CT / BK CT inverted

This can be combined with what SFX offers in its own tactile effects and abilities.

 

[Hiro Abe]

I see you've been busy!

I did try my 209 with one of my LFEs but still left me unsatisfied. What i haven't tried is both LFEs and the 209. To do that would take a bit of engineering and adding more weight which I'm trying to keep to a minimum. Still playing around.