Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

Discussion in 'Sim Racing Hardware' started by Mr Latte, Jun 29, 2017.

  1. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    Yeah Anton, although I still see some cases in where SSW with good effects can produce a "specific effect sensation" or one that I can't quite generate in Shakeit with tone generation controls.

    SSW currently is still the only software that offers Lateral G weight transfer. I think it's only a matter of time to it gets added to Shakeit but this to me will be as you point out the leading software for tactile with its continued updates and features its developer brings, being that it is all community-based.
     
  2. anton_Chez

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    Yep. Also, seeing as I only use a couple of the BK mini's, I probably won't be able to take advantage of those feelings you speak of with SSW anyway. So with a modest tactile build and not wanting to really dive into it as much as you do, the Shake It software is amazing.
     
  3. mikefreeman

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    Thanks for the feedback, I tried an online tone generator, and I did find that at 40hz I get a deep rumble, but much above that I get the humming noise. Low hz gets a slow thump but there seems to be a dead spot between 20 and 30hz where I dont much if any response. Would this be normal?
     
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  4. Beef36

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    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2018
  5. Mr Latte

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    Yes this is pretty cool.
    Although keep in mind, these are only Dayton Pucs being used here and if IIRC the original GS4 also supported the installation of them (pre-drilled holes) as the Pucs have noticeable specific mounting points other tactile do not have. Yet I can't think of seeing anyone that ever tried this with GS4.

    I had been curious in the past to learn of peoples experinces in doing something like this. Even tried to get some GS4 owners here to attempt to better combine the tactile they had with other tactile software that also supported G based effects. So that they could test around with tactile/motion working together to complement what the seat was doing. Really though, some just were not interested... Also nobody, that I have seen or can recall, has tried to combine a Jet Seat with a GS4 in a d.i.y mod neither, which also might work quite well to highlight the G based operation of the seat.


    I very much expect Avenga to focus on using Simvibe with the report and testing he gives.
    I see this helping to improve stereo effects for the rear channels compared to how SimXperience on Stage 4/5 etc install the rear units at the bottom rear of the rig. With that if you trace the only way the tactile can travel to the seat, then both RR/RL channels combine within the seats mounting that connects to the ball joint so that has to limit stereo effects operation at the rear. Its maybe why some users prefer to install their tactile to the seat. As it is also closer and will deliver more energy into the seat.

    While these Puc units can fit into small areas. From testing I have done with the Dayton Pucs they bring a rather limited performance (good for the money however). Another downside is, that unless Simvibe has an upcoming update it currently does not support G-Based effects (which is what this seat is all about). So it may only enable other effects to be used.

    Perhaps Simvibe has an update coming to bring these and other improvements as it certainly could do with it when we see what software like Simhub offers with Shakeit. I doubt Avenga will even mention Simhub for potential (conflict of interests) or do tests with other software like SSW that offers both Lateral and Longitidunal tactile effects support.

    CES 2019
    SimXperience has also shown that, they are moving towards supporting the small Earthquake transducers over the previous BK Mini units. These too, however, are quite small and limited but may operate just as good or in some ways slightly better than the more popular and more affordable Buttkicker Mini units. I havnt tried them as one reason that put me off was that the PDF shows for a 15-50Hz Frequency Response and that is poor for effects mid-high bass detailing (If its accurate) compared to some other cheaper solutions.




    Immersion Potential
    The reality is, while this and the small Earthquake units may feel not too bad to some. They are mere toys in offering something like the true potential or performance that can be achieved. Such is expensive to do with the more high end tactile (like many things with Sim racing) but in particular, they will bring lots of energy with the very lowest frequencies to enhance the richness and immersion possible with all the effects or indeed software options beyond just what Simvibe offers.

    I certainly can say that I have tested some G-Load based effects I created for SSW, that if I place my head on the headrest of the seat I can literally feel my brain shaking under the G-Loads. The effect also has enough energy when under braking it can shake my attached TV like crazy. I really think this would be awesome if combined with an actual motion seat.

    From my own experience/trials, such is on a totally different level altogether to what Pucs/Mini Lfe will achieve as shown above. Its almost like taking the most extreme to the most affordable options.
    So clearly what can be achieved is very different but in fairness, so are the costs.

    Amazingly, here we are at the end of 2018 and you can't find any professional cockpit builder that offers a package with the much more advanced tactile and what they bring or a cockpit design that is built to specifically improve the tactile performance. Its a complicated aspect is why and one that does not come cheap and really more people are likely to invest such money into motion than as much into tactile immersion possibilities.

    Certainly, none of the motion rigs shown at the Sim Conference this year appeared to be doing anything cool or exciting with tactile/motion combos.

    Interested to see how this test goes for Avenga (don't follow i-racing though). However, I would be even more eager to see what someone like Michal on these forums with his, own d.i.y G Seat can achieve. Why, well he is indeed combining both much higher end tactile with a G based motion seat as really it seems very few people have incorporated both.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2018
  6. Mr Latte

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    Its been a long time since I have owned an Advance unit, maybe others can confirm they feel the same within the 20-30Hz regions? What we can do if you want is look at settings to use EQ to try and elevate the units output for this. Whats curious to me is that its this general frequency range that the BK Mini seem rather sensitive with that can attribute to the piston pang issue. Perhaps the Advance unit has been tuned a little to reduce this, I am intrigued however.

    Can you share your amp settings used please?

    Not sure if @Michal Burisin still has some BK Advance units that he could try and compare with the BK Concerts and we can play about with via Behringer DSP.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2018
  7. Michal Burisin

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    @mikefreeman I had BK Advance installed and don't remember any dropoff in frequency at 20 - 30 Hz. Good response started at 16 Hz (it could do something below, but quite weak and not much fidelity), above that, I think it was clear. There might be some frequencies, that feel little bit weaker / stronger in regards to frequency of couple Hz below, but as you describe, you can't get almost any feedback at 20 - 30 Hz, that's definitely strange.

    I would try to remove them from the rig and try it in hand (I usually try it on thigh pressing it from top) and see if it works or the response disappears. It might be caused by your installation, that it eats up certain frequency range.

    When I increased weight and solidity of the platform I had opposite problem, when I could feel just the low frequencies up to 30 - 35 Hz and then Advance was too weak to move the platform at all.

    In comparison I found big BK Concert better than Advance in every regard except price. Even response in mid range frequencies is better in my opinion, some people say big BK piston is too heavy and slow to give proper response in higher frequency range, but I haven't noticed this. On the contrary, big BK is much better even in these frequencies and lower ones are beyond comparison.

    Hope this helps little bit.
     
  8. magzire

    magzire

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    Just installed Simvibe, really liking the gear change thump. I have it on max and still feels weak compared to hitting kerbs etc.
    Anyway to get the gear thump up and the overall effects down?
    Using extensions with seat and shifter.
     
  9. Michal Burisin

    Michal Burisin

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    Use more layers of gear shift effect on the same channel, you can use different config (different frequency) to tune this effect to you liking or same Hz to boost the volume.

    I found out that you have to have gear change only on one of the extension channels and it's playing on both. If I had effects on both of them, I was getting very inconsistent feeling from this effect.

    You could also run general volume higher and negative volume on road effects to give more relative volume to gearshift.
     
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  10. Spinelli

    Spinelli

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    Buttkicker and Earthquake Sound Equivalent Model Line-Up:

    Small
    BK: Mini LFE / Mini Concert / Gamer 2
    ES: Shell Shoxx

    Medium
    BK: Advance (AKA BK4-4)
    ES: MQB-1

    Large
    BK: LFE / Concert
    ES: Q10B


    Almost every ES Shell Shoxx review I've read has reported failures or smoke and/or the unit's outer case getting extremely hot to the point of burning skin. I would stay away from it judging from that.

    I've only heard praise for the ES MQB-10 and QB-1, particularily their detail. These apparently offer less ultimate depth/power than their equivalent BK units but more precision, accuracy, and fidelity.

    ES's smaller reported frequency working range for their units compared to BK's may be misleading and not entirely true (read below).


    "Q: What frequency range does the Q10b support?
    A: The actual frequency response is 1 to 80HZ above 80 HZ the piston moves slightly out of phase with the signal proportionally increasing up to about 150HZ. Beyond 150 the majority of the signal energy is converted to heat. We recommend that the unit should not be used at high power at frequencies above 120 HZ.

    We have altered the specifications over time to best reflect the usage that will give optimum results in the typical home cinema environment. For special industrial and military applications it can be used to its full bandwidth and power capability."

    "Q: What are the differences between Buttkicker and Earthquake tactiles?
    A: The main differences between Buttkicker and Earthquake are weight of piston, length of travel and that Earthquake uses electromagnetic instead of kinetic braking of the piston. A Lentz center coil prevents the piston from over-excursion so you have a graceful overdrive characteristic with no obtrusive sounds. Whereas Buttkicker uses rubber bumpers inside the cylinder so at overdrive you hear a loud clapping sound. Buttkicker uses a very heavy piston 1.48 kg, which will give incredible amount of rumble, but the BL (motor strength) is nowhere near sufficient to keep the piston in phase with the signal.

    If you look at heavy duty 18 inch industrial subwoofers, they have magnetic/coil structures double the size of the buttkicker and they only have to control 400 grams or less. The Buttkicker has a piston travel potential of 1.5cm which greatly limits its linearity. The Q10B has a 500gram piston that it can move in phase up to 80hz with a travel of 5 cm.

    In general the Buttkicker will give you a lot of rumble with less control and the Q10B will give you very high percussive power with a linear output into the infrasonic. It will feel very precise and it will augment the low end in an integrated way. The Buttkicker will feel somewhat more separate from the subwoofer because it can not keep in phase with the signal. Which is best depends somewhat on what you want out of it"


    Eaethquake Sound FAQ (good info):
    http://www.earthquakesound.eu/info/faq/tactile-faq.aspx
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
  11. magzire

    magzire

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    Last time i check, turning off road effects in both channels made no difference to the kerb effects. Must be doing something wrong.

    EDIT: Ah i guess i left it open on the other channel, oops. Just tried with both off, now i can lower it to my liken.
    Thanks :)
     
  12. Mr Latte

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    @Spinelli

    Real world tests and comparisons are what matters, more so than each own companies blurb.

    It also depends on the main usage for the tactile what may suit best or how indeed we should use it via crossover/EQ tuning for the role it is to have. For example is it for telemetry based tactile for a sim, is it for general audio-tactile in gaming, music or home cinema, or is it for actual musicians and their instruments? Each of these could have a unit limited to different Hz ranges or have variation in the EQ tuning.

    If you research even as far back as 10 or more years. From just a "Home Cinema" or "Music Enhancement" perspective, often the user reviews or comparisons I recall from places like AV Forums or AVS had the BK as the best for low end, the Earthquake better for music with still good bass energy but the Clark Synthesis units as the ones with potentially the most musical finesse or fidelity but with less low end capabilities.

    In Home Cinema terms for a couch, the regarded best tactile are by "Crowson" which work with an actuator that moves the seat rather than being attached to the seat. These dont come cheap at over $500 each. Yet a recliner or couch with these was much cheaper than a D-Box motion.



    Of course and to some extents personal preference and the users desired use comes into play.

    Earthquake Specs
    Keep in mind I quoted the spec found within the PDF and noted (if accurate). As I have seen variations for quoted specs on packaging/listings/manuals. So with that comes confusion and then the uncertainty of what the actual units do support.

    I may buy a Q10B at some point and have been looking for a 2nd hand or reconditioned unit on ebay for over 6 months but few hardly appear. It would interest me to compare to the large Buttkickers I already own and to the Clark units too. More in curiosity and hobbyist interest than actually needing one. As to be honest if you search Youtube or other places you just can't find good and detailed comparisons of these and certainly not with the perspective of being used for sim racing cockpits.

    I would be interested to compare a Q10B Vs BK Concert for "Engine / Gearshift" and "Longitudinal G-Force" effects output on my central channels. Can't say I have seen many cockpit rigs with the Q10B at all though to get direct user feedback for sim racing usage.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2018
  13. mikefreeman

    mikefreeman

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    I have finished mounting and wiring up my butt kickers-
    I ended up with-
    Simlabs P1 cockpit,using simvibe software
    1x Buttkicker advance mounted under the pedal tray with Fanatec V3 inverted pedals.
    2x buttkicker Mini mounted left and right of the pedal mount, using simlabs buttkicker mounts.
    1x Pearl Throne thumper mounted to Nextlevel Motion Platform under seat.
    2x Butkicker Minis mounted upright on the rear sides of the next level racing seat.
    1x Tst209 upper central back of seat-
    1x ADX maximus mounted to the rig wheel and shiftier supports..

    First impressions I am a little underwhelmed and I am sure that is down to my inexperience in setting this up.
    Although the mini buttkicker left and right of my pedals are making a lot of noise I am not getting much feedback into the pedals and onto my feet. The fanatec V3 pedals come with thin rubber at their feet, I cant imagine this would be enough to isolate but maybe it is. I tried them both with the simlab mounting brackets and also bolted upright straight to the pedal support on the simlab.

    Very little vibration from the advance,again this maybe down to isolation issues.

    Do buttkickers work well when mounted directly to 80/20 frame or do they prefer to be on some sort of bracket, also does it make much difference if they are mounted upright or on their side.

    I have left alot of settings in simvibe at default and have just added the effects but is it imperative to also adjust the frequencies the effects give out, as some of them seem to be in the 100hz range and my buttkicker only manage a bit of a hum at that level.

    Oh and the ADX unit get really hot.

    Loads more testing and tuning to go but getting there.
     
  14. Michal Burisin

    Michal Burisin

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    From my experience, if you mount tactile units directly to solid structure, they don't have enough power to move it (create vibration). That's why I have pedals and seat on very soft isolators. Anyway even with this isolation BK Advance was not strong enough to move pedal platform which has like 40 kg, so I went for big buttkicker units and it's great now.

    I would recommend you looking into isolation and separate the parts where should be tactile feeling from the rest of the rig.
     
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  15. HugoB

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    A question: I’m about to buy 2 Buttkickers Advance and pair them with the iNuke NX3000D.

    Is this amp the right choice at the moment? How low will it drive the Buttkickers? Because the proprietary amp from Buttkicker claims to go as low as 10 Hz, do we need this? Do regular soundcards even output anything at 10 Hz? What effects are this low?

    I will be using them for engine RPM only, because the rest of the effects will be handled by my SFX100’s.

    Also, I am using a NuForce uDAC3 as a USB soundcard, it claims 20 Hz - 20 KHz... will this suffice? Or should I be getting something like an Asus Essence STXII that claims to go from 10 Hz to 90 KHz? Or does engine RPM not need this low end? Thanks!
     
  16. Mr Latte

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    For this motion type rig. I would go beyond the BK Advance to get the LFE or large Concert. You should then with that amp be able to enjoy good sensations down to about 3Hz. It would be good to see some SFX100 owners willing or eager to experiment with combining the large or better tactile but also going beyond the limitations Simvibe has with the alternative options/settings/effects they offer which Simvibe lacks. Some it seems do not heed this advice.

    No need to limit the units to only RPM or Gear as G-Force and wheel slip could be typical examples of effects to also include. This if preferred, leaving the SFX motion to do the bump tactile or what effects it does best. The frustration here (I at least find) is we haven't heard what SFX tactile effects work really well and what its limitations are as nobody seems to of covered such in detail.

    With so much current hype with it, few have shared from delving seriously into combining both independent tactile together with the motions abilities. To at least experiment rather than presume how/what we can obtain the best possible immersion. Just as some at the start were writing off even the need for additional tactile with the systems own offerings. I got blasted for suggesting otherwise.

    Mini LFE units like Henk uses for some channels, are just not good enough if the user seeks really good performance and the best immersion. You need what the low Hz can bring to represent certain effects better or in a more realistic manner. This as seen, is also a similar limitation for people that have used or owned other common models like Aura Pro, ADX, Reckhorn. If owning only these in the past or having only stuck with Simvibe in the past then the perception they have from that is not what is potentially possible if we are to seriously look at merging both SFX onboard and additional tactile together.

    None of these cheap or entry level units should be considered as "serious hardware". While they can deliver nice sensations they are not going to be bringing the "full potential" from what tactile can indeed offer.

    Note for amps/soundcards.
    Spec listings often use 20Hz-20KHz as this is the range used for human audible hearing.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
  17. Michal Burisin

    Michal Burisin

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    I would also recommend big BK unit, I love Big Concerts, don't have any experience with Big LFE, so I cannot compare these two.

    As I wrote above, tactile heavily relies on soft isolation to be felt good. I'm afraid, that this soft isolation will be very problematic with combination with SFX100.

    See the softness of isolation on my rig - video 1 and video 2.

    SFX would make my pedal platform and maybe also seat jump around like crazy - probably with some delay as the soft isolation would lag behind actual SFX100 sharp movements. I think, that with SFX100 it would be necessary to seriously stiffen the isolation, which will result in lower tactile strength felt. This is why I would recommend big BK units, because it can deliver more power, with BK Advance, I would be afraid I wouldn't feel much.

    It's not that big price difference in my eyes 250 USD (Advance) vs 320 USD (big Concert) and you'll get something like 300 % perferomance out of it.

    Also I think big Concert covers much more of spectrum needed for engine than BK Advance, I would say 7 - 55 Hz. While I felt BK Advance to cover just around 15 - 35 Hz with sufficient power (to be felt at least).

    I use TST239 in dual role for engine to cover frequency up to 72 Hz, higher than that loses lots of power and is more audible than tactile. It extends big Concert for those 17 Hz. But BK Advance it adds around 37 Hz. So it's much more important to have TST with Advance than with Concert.

    If you are in this for engine It's definitely worthwhile to have TST in the end. It's absolute blast to feel it through the pedal. You don't have to look for shift LEDs so much, because you will get the correct feeling when to shift in foot with tactile response.

    When you add wheelslip, you will feel when you overcook it right through the pedals, which will let you know to back off the throttle, so I wouldn't limit the tactile just to the engine / gear effects and try little bit more :).
     
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  18. HugoB

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    Thanks guys, this has been very helpful! You are probably right Mr Latte, I will eventually try out other effects anyway. Thanks Michal for your thorough explanation of frequencies to be expected! I am now definitely getting two BK Concerts. I read in Wikipedia the frequencies for engine RPM:

    Modern automobile engines are typically operated around 2,000–3,000 rpm (33–50 Hz) when cruising, with a minimum (idle) speed around 750–900 rpm (12.5–15 Hz), and an upper limit anywhere from 4500 to 10,000 rpm (75–166 Hz) for a road car or nearly 20,000 rpm for racing engines such as those in Formula 1 cars (currently limited to 15,000 rpm).

    So to cover the spectrum of race cars, the BK Advance seems like a poor choice. I will start with BK Concerts and see if any isolation is needed to make them effective. You are right about the SFX100 and that the motion doesn’t work well with soft isolation, there is a lot of small details that would otherwise be lost. This concerns me, but I have to at least try if BK Concerts are any good just bolted to the pedals and seat, so as not to loose out on the SFX100.

    What really concerns me is that race car engines typically rev around 4000 to 8000 RPM during racing, this translates to well above 75 Hz! What does this mean to tactile transducers? Is it mainly audible then? Does it even make sense to use tactile transducers for engine RPM? Or is there maybe a trick, like halving the Hz so you have at least a reference of where you are on the rev band (just brainstorming here)?

    I wouldn’t want to have two large speakers blasting out my engine RPM through the house, it seems rather ineffective.. but maybe thats just how it is..
     
  19. Michal Burisin

    Michal Burisin

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    Well I was also obssesing about not being able to get full range of frequency (calculated from real world Engine frequency) as well, but in the end I resigned and just went with what feels best :)

    I run BK Concerts + TST239, which has frequency range from 5 - 72 Hz where I get the strongest feeling.

    TST239 picks up strength around 50 Hz and goes strong up to 72 Hz where its strength drops off rapidly (74 Hz feels like 1/2 or 2/3 the strength of 72 Hz). The strength of TST239 is not very linear, even in this short range so I have some crazy profile where I try to get it behave little bit more linear :)

    upload_2018-12-16_22-0-2.png

    Maybe @Mr Latte could give us his insight on this topic.

    I have this frequency automapped in SimVibe to engine effect and it maps lowest RPM to highest RPM for that particular car to this 5 - 76 Hz (72 Hz is strongest, I adjust max range so I get strongest feeling from TST through pedals at optimal shift point, this vary from car to car). This simple mapping certainly does not offer variablility between different cars as much as I would like but the variability is still there - it's based on idle RPM and the curve how the car accelerates (increases RPM through time), how the RPM drops on downshifts and how engine autobrakes etc. Also you get lot of engine variability via sound of the engine, it's connected in your brain with the vibrations so different cars feel quite different as the vibrations develop with the progressing sound of increasing RPM.

    SimVibe has more advanced engine effects in chassis mode for like 2 years and they still didn't ported it to extension mode, so it's unusable for me :( also some bugs I reported haven't been fixed, after urging I was told someone will get back to me but they never did so I resigned on the matter :(. Anyway I'm stuck with the basic effect in chassis mode and it works reasonably well for now - I must add that engine effect is very important to me, when I say reasonably well I mean I'm very happy with it, it's really a blast :), but it could be so much better with better sofware.

    @Mr Latte is using mixing tactile and audio source for engine, but for my usage it's too advanced, relies on good sounds of the Sim you're using, requires lot of tuning, other sounds from game are mixed into tactile etc., so I didn't went along this road beside some quick testing. I might revisit this later, but for me it's important to jump from car to car / sim to sim without too much hassle.

    Also there might be some new possibilities in that new software @Mr Latte was talking about, but I haven't tried it yet.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
  20. Mr Latte

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    Heres my thoughts on this....
    @Hugo


    Being able to utilise frequencies in effects below 20Hz does not mean they need to always be at high output levels for them to bring benefits in sensations obtained. The user has to begin to learn or better understand what each frequency range can represent with the felt sensation different Hz ranges can offer. Also as I have illustrated at times, frequencies generate their own harmonics, so low Hz will generate more Hz with each harmonic. I learned a lot from just learning in building effects as to what can help bring for my own preference what I think are suitable sensations. Of course, some people may prefer something very different.

    For example, take a car bouncing over the grass. or a bumpy part of track. It is possible to achieve a nice rebound type sensation that gives the user the impression of heave as the chassis is bouncing up/down and the user visually sees this on their display looking out their supposed windscreen.

    I found using Shakeit with its "Left/Right Vibration" effect for (front & rear wheels) this with a setting utilising 30Hz - 3Hz operation it can indeed give a nice rebound type sensation for the chassis. Yet we still can have independent suspension based effects too.

    Poorly Configured Effects & Settings = Bad Tactile (Even On The Best Hardware)
    if the user does not generate/build good effects/settings with an excellent usage of important frequencies that help produce this rebound type sensation. Then it's likely the user will not get the same level of immersion and this can be the case with lesser tactile. They simply can't output effectively enough the suitable low frequencies so they miss the sensation or in some cases do not feel the full sensation someone else may indeed feel with hardware that can produce the lowest frequencies.

    Leverage
    How units are installed can also have a huge impact, as can isolation. Tests by users have shown that mechanical leverage can also be a factor as seen by the BK Gamer compared to the BK Mini or tactile placed on extended plates for leverage.

    We even see this with the optional brackets for the "Earthquake" models. My own rig build will have each large BK unit use the "BK sofa" mount as an extended plate to generate some mechanical leverage. I will be testing 4 of these on the seat with the upcoming build.

    Isolators below the primary installed surface will likely create a mechanical or vertical motion which may help to increase the output felt. Isolations main purpose, however, is to separate the desired tactile section from another. Obviously to limit reduce the mass/area the vibrations can travel to gain more effective energy distribution within the isolated section/area intended.

    Moving Mass Theories
    I am not an expert but I don't fully go with this perspective, which is often based on the size/power of unit in relation to the size/weight of mass it is installed to. Let me explain why, the amount of direct mass any of my units need to vibrate is not big at all and certainly much less than the "Sofa" or "Single Seat" based examples sometimes used by BK. They do this as an example to determine if a user should consider a small BK Mini, BK Advance or BK LFE sized unit.

    For example, unlike a 3 seater sofa and a single unit installed to the center seat frame. I don't need the energy to reach to either end of its structure to the outer seats. What we are doing is different as firstly we are using multiple channels and each channel has its own duty or positional placement on the rig. Left/Right or indeed "Center" units can occupy the same "mass/section" be this the seat or pedal sections.

    While I don't think its a major factor in this scenario. Some vibrations can also be airborne, with wave compression. They do not just need solid mass to travel. Anyone ever slam a door in a house for objects across the room react?

    One of the most key elements I find for installation is that the primary energy of the installed unit has a PRIORITY to go into the "desired body region" in the most effective way possible. We want to control the path the energy will travel but also prevent it from going down or elsewhere away from the user's intended body region. The larger units have much heavier pistons, they are what is needed for the best energy with low Hz.

    From my personal experiences, this does not, however, mean a small unit can perform just like a large unit if the small unit only has to vibrate a small structure or amount of mass. A small unit with its volume cranked will just become uncomfortable as its peak Hz determine its output character.

    So this does not suddenly make it better for delivering under 20Hz by increasing its volume. You will find plenty of people who have tactile units directly installed to seats, (sides/back) etc and really they cannot have a closer or more direct installation to the user's body. Yet still, these cannot reproduce the lowest frequencies with the desired amount of energy as they just do not have the operating capabilities to do so.

    I believe it really is more a factor of what the performance differences are between different units than how big or heavy a pedal section is on a rig or a "mass" contributing factor with multichannel tactile and in the way we are using tactile for sim cockpits. Clearly covered many times is how I disagree with placing tactile on 4 corners allowing the energy to spill into many other parts of the cockpits frame without even attempting to direct it more effectively to the intended body-zone region.

    @Hugo do not rely on real-world vibrations to represent tactile immersion with sims.
    I spent a long time evaluating how for example Simvibe used its V4-V12 options. Really it comes down to something simple. Utilising the usable Hz range to suit different cars RPM ranges, thats all it does and it has nothing to do with attempting to represent real cars.

    Shakeit can deliver very nice RPM and Speed effects with LOTS of options to alter the sensations.
    One key factor can be that if the engine overpowers other effects (even when placed on its own tactile units) then the net output experience felt is maybe not as good. This depends what sensations each user may want to feel. Engine is okay but some prefer to get more sensation for what the car is doing on the track. i dont see why this cannot also benefit motion rigs or with tactile let us bring more individual character in the felt sensations to different cars.

    I do not see much use for Simvibe at this time with having tried Shakeit and having some idea in how its got updates to further improve it coming. Its simple, unless Simvibe has its own major improvements coming I dont see much use in using it for tactile when other alternatives offer things it doesnt and do things it does but also brings a much less frustrating UI.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
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