Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

@mikefreeman its good to experiment and compare units. I say this a lot but few seem to actually buy/compare or experiment much for themselves. Some online etailers even give up to 30 days to return items (conditions apply). If you are USA then I would recommend paying $40 more or $60 more for a large LFE or Concert over the Advance unit. In some regions, the cost difference is much higher between them.

With the NX3000D just follow the instructions/manual.
Keep in mind a BK gamer and Concert are 2ohm the other units are all 4ohm.

It uses different connections like "Speakon" for its outputs. For "Pc Soundcard" as an input it will accept either Male XLR or Male 6.3mm Jack. There is a link to a cable guide at the start of this thread. Later if you need help with its control software that can be covered.

Yes it would be best to have the rear tactile attached to the seat section of the rig.
Put some thought into where you think you are going to install the units and how to best mount them.
 
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The wattage ratings that Behringer use I believe are PMPO I think you multiply these by 7.07 to get RMS ratings. Personally, I don't have to crank the amps that much with an installation of the units close to the seat or pedal sections. I also from experience think that's the best way to install tactile and use good quality isolation to help maintain the energy within the isolated sections.

1) I think you meant 0.707 :)

PMPO = Peak Music Power = Max Wattage = ignore this
RMS = Real Music Power = "real" wattage = pay attention to this

Max wattage is almost always marketing crap. to make a speaker or amp sound way more powerful than it is. Max wattage is generally what the amp/speaker is safely capable of for, let's say, 1 second. The speaker or amp would blow or go on fire if being run at or near max W.

RMS is the "real" wattage limit the device is designed to continuously handle; I highly suggest only paying attention to this.


2) It looks like the true wattage numbers of the NU3000DSP / NX3000D are as follows:

With resistive loads, power output at clipping was pretty darn close to:
300 W rms / 8 ohm / channel
600 W rms / 4 ohm / channel
1000 W rms / 2 ohm / channel
2000 W rms / 4 ohm / bridged

Out of curiosity, I tested voltage and continuous power output for 20hz & 10Hz.

No load:
20Hz = 49Vrms
10Hz = 44Vrms

8 ohm load:
20Hz = 282 Wrms
10Hz = 230 Wrms

4 ohm load:
20Hz = 475 Wrms (< 10 seconds)

After about 10 seconds, the power output dropped back to 280Wrms.
Based on this, I skipped the 10Hz and 2ohm testing.
- source https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/213071-behringer-inuke-nu3000-measurements.html


3) I haven't checked in a month or so but last I researched, the new Behringer NX amps are basically identical to the Behringer iNuke NU models besides external looks, maybe a quieter fan (not sure), and people say the front gain dials (clipping dials) are better on the NU models because they light up at different, more useful dB #s than the ones on the NX. For all intents and purposes, the NU and NX are the same.
 
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Yes typo mistake on my part above for the RMS. Only other differences I seen was that the NX software has some small improvements over the Remote Connect software used with iNuke DSP models.

The new software will not work on the iNuke
 
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1) I found RMS / continuous Wattage ratings for the Behringer amps discussed in this thread:

NU3000DSP / NX3000D
280 W x2 @ 8 ohm
570 W x2 @ 4 ohm
1100 W x2 @ 2 ohm

NU1000DSP / NX1000D
115 W x2 @ 8 ohm
220 W x2 @ 4 ohm
380 W x2 @ 2 ohm

Official Behringer Peak and RMS/Continuos Wattages Spec Sheet:
20181206_045046.png

2) What sort of improvents does the NX DSP's software offer over the NU DSP's?

3) Are you able to run stereo with one ch. @ 4 ohm (eg. CS TST429) and the other @ 2 ohm (eg. BK Concert)?

4) I ended up buying a CS TST429 Platinum instead of the TST239 Silver. If I decide to go with a 2nd or maybe even 3rd and 4th CS, do you think it would be alright if the remaining ones are TST329 Golds instead of Platinums?
 
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@Spinelli

1) Sometimes feedback from people that own and use the hardware in the method desired, with the same source for the specific purpose being discussed can "speak volumes".

Looking at the ratings you posted someone could think a large BK can work upto 1500 watts and its spec sheet says it needs a min of 400w. Therefore the 3000 model in only putting out 570w looks very limited for what it needs.

So it gives the wrong impression that a user with a 3000 model would have to run the amp at max output constantly to get anything close to a good performance out of it with the largest BK models. Yet this is not the case at all with what we are using these with and for.

2) Improved meter levels and ability to see crossover overlaid within PEQ
3) The amp lets you so I assume it is okay
4) I wouldn't recommend different units for the main 4 channels but you could likely tune it in EQ to perform similarly to 3 other golds. It may be best to place the 429 for a dedicated engine role and use 4x TST239 units for the front/back stereo pairs.

I dont know what your plans are or budget is to give you recommendations/options to consider in getting the best performance to money spent. Of course, only based on my own experiences or opinions.

The TST429 is clearly an expensive unit while having great fidelity and a superb all-around performance. I purchased my first new but was lucky over the years to get some at 2nd hand and often great prices, even as low as £90 iirc for one.

A source like music would help highlight its own particular operating benefits as keep in mind these operate with more audible sound than BK units with heard audio too like speakers. Yes, the T429 will outperform its more affordable lesser/models but does a $549 unit bring the best money spent on what we are doing? Its hard to recommend to go out and buy them new. Its hard to recommend 4 TST 329 Gold over Silver models if we consider other options like Dual Role. Yet you won't find many people with Dual Role-based installations.

The BK LFE will hit with much harder/deeper bass than a TST429. The 429 in my experience brings better mid-range and detailing into the higher frequencies. Again spec sheets do not give the full picture, real-world usage/testing and comparisons in what we are seeking however can.
 
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@Spinelli

1) Sometimes feedback from people that own and use the hardware in the method desired, with the same source for the specific purpose being discussed can "speak volumes".

Looking at the ratings you posted someone could think a large BK can work upto 1500 watts and its spec sheet says it needs a min of 400w. Therefore the 3000 model in only putting out 570w looks very limited for what it needs.

So it gives the wrong impression that a user with a 3000 model would have to run the amp at max output constantly to get anything close to a good performance out of it with the largest BK models. Yet this is not the case at all with what we are using these with and for.
Wouldn't that be Buttkicker's specs giving the wrong impression" 570 W is good for the BK LFE and only needs a little bit of power to get going and performs well in the 500 W range from the quick research I did. Also, from everything I read, max/peak wattage numbers are meant for 1 or 2 milliseconds (the most I read someone say is 1 second). Amplifiers and speakers/drivers will die a quick death if running above continuous/RMS wattage levels. What we need from Buttkicker is the RMS/continuous wattage # for their products.

Perhaps most importantly, we can get the best of both worlds because we can buy the BK Concert instead of the LFE. The Concert is 2 ohm, not 4, therefore the NU3000DSP/NX3000D has 1100 W on tap for the BK C instead of only 570 W for the BK LFE. The Concert is apparently either a) almost identical to the LFE's depth and power but with slightly better precision and accuracy or b) exactly the same as the LFE. Therefore, the BK C is the best of both worlds and I see no reason for the BK LFE to even be considered.

Improved meter levels and ability to see crossover overlaid within PEQ
How useful or important is this for our application? I'm just wondering because I bought the NU, not the NX.
 
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This wattage factor, is just simply not an issue, posting the paper specs and using them as a basis is flawed thinking. These forums have I would assume been responsible for lots of sales of Behringer INuke amps for all levels of tactile. We don't see many reports of failures or lack of power issues, here or on other forums.

Others can certainly chime in with their own experiences. I personally am using nowhere near the potential output of the DSP3000 with twin LFE installed to my seat. Stating there is more potential wattage in going with the 2ohm Concert models is a bit pointless as you won't need to run the amp at its full potential and that's also a very good thing for performance and reliability.

You will reach a point that excessive wattage will start to have piston pang issues, as the amplitude of some frequencies based on what all the effects are generating is higher than other frequencies.

The loss of not having all the functionality the DSP offers at the small price difference is ignoring the full potential with low bass control and tuning that these amps offer. I guess it's up to the individual if they feel its worth the money or not but all I can say is such amps have the controls for beneficial reasons.

Many times the benefits have been discussed on these forums but few maybe really want to chat or learn how to use them.
 
This wattage factor, is just simply not an issue, posting the paper specs and using them as a basis is flawed thinking. These forums have I would assume been responsible for lots of sales of Behringer INuke amps for all levels of tactile. We don't see many reports of failures or lack of power issues, here or on other forums.

Others can certainly chime in with their own experiences. I personally am using nowhere near the potential output of the DSP3000 with twin LFE installed to my seat. Stating there is more potential wattage in going with the 2ohm Concert models is a bit pointless as you won't need to run the amp at its full potential and that's also a very good thing for performance and reliability.
I think we're actually agreeing with eachother in some ways. What I'm saying is by using the BK Concert (2 ohm) you'll be putting even less stress on the amp because the amp can handle more power at 2 ohms than 4 ohm - 4 ohm: 570-635 W RMS, 2 ohm: 1075-1100 W.

If BK are using accurate peak/max numbers (RMS/0.707), then the RMS/continuous levels for the BK C & LFE should be around 1060 W each. Therefore, in order to have access to the full potential of the big BKs, it seems the NU3000DSP / NX3000D @ 2 ohm is just about the perfect match for the BK Concert.

The loss of not having all the functionality the DSP offers at the small price difference is ignoring the full potential with low bass control and tuning that these amps offer. I guess it's up to the individual if they feel its worth the money or not but all I can say is such amps have the controls for beneficial reasons.
I was asking about the software of the NU models VS NX models, not whether to have DSP at all or not. I definitely am going the DSP route as even before I knew much about the DSP stuff, I realised I needed something like that when I was experimenting with a BK Gamer 2 / Mini.

You said the NX gives "Improved meter levels and ability to see crossover overlaid within PEQ." So How important or useful is that because I bought the NU model which you said doesn't have that.
 
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Sorry man, had a night shift and not fully with it.

Potentially yes you could say more wattage/output could be applied to the Concert model as it is 2ohm.

Is this a benefit or needed? You have to take into account, however, its claimed performance characteristics to that of the LFE model and ensure its peak Hz being output do not become uncomfortable. With the EQ yes we can alter the character of the unit but I wouldn't say get the Concert model and use it over a 4ohm LFE based on this wattage factor.

My own purpose of using both is to supposedly have the most energy with below 20Hz as also in the 40-80Hz frequency bands each are advertised to be tuned for.

I don't think the NX Edit software is much benefit over the Remote Connect previous software. Seems mainly visual updates than anything else.

Once you tune the amp via the software and find an EQ that suits the installation and your preference you likely won't need to go back to it often. I think Behringer really missed the ball as the limitations with USB to the amps one at a time (socket now at the back than front) is tedious if you have multiple amps. I would of hoped Behringer would of offered wifi based connectivity and control via tablet of multiple amps.


Additonal Metering Any Interest?
If you want really good metering/monitoring then look into the Behringer HA6000 or HA8000 products. These look in a nerdy way rather awesome. I think they are great for seeing each channels activity be it with tactile software or 6 channel game audio. Its let me no longer have to guess or presume but see exactly how games use the rear, center and sub channels, compared to the stereo channels.

I use two HA6000 units but with these I can now compare in realtime the output activity of Simvibe, SSW or Shakeit to test or compare various effects if desired. For me I liked how this hardware would let me create a mix that may have some effects from Simvibe, but also add in effects Simvibe doesnt have like "Lateral G" with effects that i like most in Shakeit.

Not many would want to have this complexity but its also been helpful to determine which solutions seem to be working best when comparing bumps or road texture or other common effects each has.

Recently Shakeit has been really impressing me over both Simvibe or SSW. With its advanced setting/control options, I cannot only feel but see the channels operating with more activity with it seems more accurate stereo operation too for the wheels.
 
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Thanks, Mr. Latte. By the way. Instead of a BK A + CS TST239 Silver, I ended up buying a BK A + 4x TST439 Platinum.

I'm in way over my head with so many transducers. I guess I can run each TST439 in chassis mode (or equivalent in other simracing tactile software) and hook up the BK A to the nicely convenient Next Level Motion v3 clamp but I have no idea where to mount 4 CSs on a Sim-Lab P1.

I'm also nervous because, as someone previosuly mentioned, we might not be able to feel directional feedback due to the NLM v3 :(:(:(
 
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Yeah Simhub does a LOT of things "Shakeit for Bass Shakers" is only part of it but what it offers and the developer is working towards is awesome. I would very strongly advise people to donate to it first before considering spending $89 just on Simvibe. I didnt at first give it much attention based on the fact it gets very little discussion on the forums.

One example is that Simvibe only supports 4 channels and needs 2 soundcards for both CM/EM options SSW only supports 6 channels. This supports 8 channels on one card (7.1 card) 6 on a (5.1 card). This can bring another saving and I believe it can support multiple cards for beyond 8 channels if desired.

It has some very nice effects but having briefly chatted with the developer I am excited to see the big update it has coming.
 
Thanks, Mr. Latte. By the way. Instead of a BK A + CS TST239 Silver, I ended up buying a BK A + 4x TST439 Platinum.

I'm in way over my head with so many transducers. I guess I can run each TST439 in chassis mode (or equivalent in other simracing tactile software) and hook up the BK A to the nicely convenient Next Level Motion v3 clamp but I have no idea where to mount 4 CSs on a Sim-Lab P1.

I'm also nervous because, as someone previosuly mentioned, we might not be able to feel directional feedback due to the NLM v3 :(:(:(

Share some images on ideas or a diagram.
Or consider doing a thread on it for others to follow or enjoy with you.

I would advise in having the tactile on a custom built attachment for the tactile to accommodate the VR3 frame. If these handle the weight of a GS4 it will handle the weight of a few tactile. Of course best to start planning ahead or working on possible options.
 
I would sell my Simvibe key if there is a chance to do so. There is no need for it for me anymore. Shake It is amazing.

Try telling that to some of the SFX 100 users/owners :D
I am so looking forward to the big update it has coming as with the new control options and multilayer effects support. It's going to enable us to push the boundaries even more.
 
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can someone help me with settings for a nx3000d and bkadvance. It is working with simvibe cm seat, but I get more of hum with occasional thumps from the bk not the vibrations I was expecting.
probably down to my lack of knowledge when it comes to Amps.
using the nx3000 software-
mode set to dual?
filter xover settings- highpass off/ lowpass ?
the rest i dont understand.
Some screen shots would hep me alot.
 
can someone help me with settings for a nx3000d and bkadvance. It is working with simvibe cm seat, but I get more of hum with occasional thumps from the bk not the vibrations I was expecting.
probably down to my lack of knowledge when it comes to Amps.
using the nx3000 software-
mode set to dual?
filter xover settings- highpass off/ lowpass ?
the rest i dont understand.
Some screen shots would hep me alot.

We can get you decent settings for the amp later.

Really though to start with we normally set the amp up for mono/stereo with wattage limiter (if needed). With crossover settings we can determine the range of Hz the tactile unit will work with. Here we also can boost the general output or use filters to determine if we want frequencies to gently roll off or be sliced like a cliff edge. This maybe has more usage with speakers than tactile but we can use these tools to our advantage with tactile and testing effects operation. Having a roll off in decreasing dB can help with harmonics generated by the various effects Hz used. This may bring more varation to the output on say a TST unit operating upto 150Hz or 200Hz for some increased harmonic detailing but these options in what is applied may just be personal preference.

Visually the software shows the output operation and becomes more understandable with some playing around.

Frequency Tests
I recommend trying a frequency generator software or websites to test Hz ranges with controls you use for the amp and this can include EQ. These are mentioned many times in this thread. Simvibes TEST generator never functioned properly and I doubt it was ever fixed so do not use it as a reference to feel various Hz. It should only be used to test a response from the unit is working.

Do this before getting into tactile software. It's good to learn what different Hz feel like on your rig and what level of output you like with them. This can be different for each persons installation or the tactile they use with the amps/soundcards etc they have.

For Buttkicker units you will likely not need to go beyond 100Hz range as it increases the operation/workload and heat on the moving piston but with perhaps limited benefits.


What I always tell people is when you have Simvibe or whatever software using all the effects running that you want. You can break this up into 3-4 initial tests. If someone has spent time prior feeling and learning how certain Hz feel then that is useful to help determine what or how different Hz are suitable for specific effects or sensations we want an effect to generate.

Crossover Ranges To Test:
5-35Hz
35Hz-70Hz
70Hz-100Hz
*100Hz - Whatever (the tactile units working range may be less but is the restricting factor)

Here you can do a test to set the crossover to limit the tactile to only work from 100Hz to say 130Hz. As an example, you will only feel what the additional 30Hz is then bringing from any of all the effects you are using. You can do this to test any frequency range. lets say later you wanted to test only what 5-35Hz was doing, you can create a profile and save it on the amp to use this at any time.

In doing this approach it then helps determine how you can apply EQ to boost/cust specific ranges and improve the output performance to YOUR tactiles character/capabilities and YOUR preference. What this CAN achieve is a well-tuned output for your tactile that cannot be done on typical amps. This is just one reason I strongly recommend the DSP amps.

So we can use the Crossover to discover how well the units are operating between ANY given frequency range. This can be a useful tool indeed for configuring your tactile and understanding how they are performing with the effects and settings for them being used.

Keep EQ at this stage off it can be looked at later for fine tuning your units output to specific Hz or small ranges of specific frequencies. This is good for reverb issues or just tailoring the tactile units more to your preference in the character of output they generate. As an example, maybe you want more energy at 20Hz but less energy at 50Hz, here we use the EQ but only at the final stage.


Tactile Above 100Hz?
You have to determine if using a higher range is worthwhile, with a higher range the tactile are worked harder but is it beneficial to increase the range or limit it to increase the efficiency of the units output with having less range to cover? Different seats and materials in peoples rigs or installations are factors here.


My advice to you is try Simhub and Shakeit and by all means compare it to Simvibe. You may find some good settings in user profiles for Simvibe on the users/members marketplace.

For Shakeit I can send you some settings to try for various effects but I plan to do an in-depth thread on its effects and settings (after its upcoming update) as I personally have tried all the tactile software options and looked in-depth to them. I personally see Shakeit being the best option and thinks others that try also will agree. Its much more user-friendly fo beginners than Simvibe with nicer UI but also with much more control/potential in effects output than SSW.
 
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Shake It is awesome. I have Simvibe, SSW and Shake it all installed. I only use one now. I used to use both the others at the same time. No need now. Interface is clean and clear. No activating and reactivating profiles, no creating wav files not knowing what I'm doing, nothing. I hate the way Simvibe makes you reactivate the profile if you leave the track or the game. So annoying. Run Shake it in the background and it just stays active for the sim you've assigned no matter if you leave and come back.
 

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