Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Mr Latte]

I've just ordered 4 of those isolators at 43kg to fit below my pedal section, and I will report back, probably in about 1 weeks time.

Look forward with interest how you get on Ken.

My own thoughts on this, take the example used on a brake pedal. It may use different compounds of rubbers to get the desired sensation and balance of

(A) initial depression
(B) resistance.

In testing these 43Kg units I would appreciate if can you try them also combined with the T100 type isolators (Penn Elcom variant). I do believe its possible to find a working solution that has just enough initial depression but then enough resistance. What may suit one installation or user may also vary.

The question is, as a single solution a 43Kg may be deemed too soft but then a harder variant compound may be too stiff when used as a single solution. So what do we do?

Well, I presume with the softer unit we can add in a harder isolator below to pair it with, or with the harder unit like 90kg or more used we can partner it with a soft initial compound or layer but on top.

These are just things I would do and sharing if you want to take them into account in tests.

 

[MJH78]

@Mr Latte
If I understand your premise correctly, I'm not sure you could ever achieve more overall resistance to the vibrating part by adding/mixing different strengths of isolators. If they were attached in series(rig to isolator to isolator to pedal), the end result would always be softer than the softest part in the "chain". In effect the amount of flex would increase by the amount of movement allowed by each isolator. If they were attached in parallel (different strength isolators directly attached between the rig and pedal set), then presumably the softer isolators just wouldn't do anything and the stiffness would effectively be that of the stiffest part assuming there is enough resistance to cover the weight/strength of the vibrated object (seat or pedals in this case). Perhaps I'm just not understanding what you mean by top and below in your example.

What does seem promising to me is the suggestion that an isolator could have different "strength" at different planes of movement as suggested in one of the previous posts. The perfect isolator for our purposes would surely vibrate pretty freely in the vertical plane, but be very stiff in the horizontal so that when a pedal is pressed it would not in effect flex away from the drivers foot but would be free to transfer all the vibrations from the tactile to the pedals in up and down movements. This of course is assuming a more GT or F1 driving position where the pedals are roughly at the level of the seat and therefore the full force of the breaking is towards the front of the car rather than in a downward motion as in many road cars.

 

[Mr Latte]

The best way to go about this is try options and different solutions.
Keep in mind we still want the isolation used to still perform well and maintain the tactile energy in the isolated component used.

I would suggest here too, different compounds in stiffness or if applying more than one solution brings variation in the results achieved.

 

[Michal Burisin]

Hey, here are promised videos:

Video 1

Video 2

It's still being processed on youtube, there will be better resolution available as soon as it's done.

As you can see, the isolators are very soft vertically and to the sides. It looks ridiculous really , when I first installed them, I was thinking I'll have to dump these isolators straight away. But then I found out they have zero flex when loaded from front to back - I'm pulling really hard.

I had troubles with resonance as the pedal construction is like 30 - 40 kg with everything, which is not light, but all the tactile could make it catch bad vibration as the initial resistance from isolators is so soft.

I solved it via adding "pretension" with bolt I outlined in previous posts. It's not installed on the video though. It solved all my problems.

Also notice how much side to side movement it has and notice side butkicker specifically - that's a lot of movement right? I believe it's just this what makes for really great L / R separation. I cannot notice this side to side squishiness when driving at all. Also BK side units are offset and on longer "lever" to create more motion.

I also got some vertical flex going on the front on the steel profiles as you can see, it doesn't happen under braking as its force is rather front to back. Even if there's some flex, it becomes part of the pedal characteristics as it's behaving always the same. Same thing was described in review of some vertical mounted pedals on Sim Racing Garage, and Barry was suprised that flex that was going on there didn't affect the pedal feeling in negative way.

Also I have another layer of isolators under the whole construction you can see on video which increases motion and kills the vibration going into the floor.

I have applied lot of vibration killing materials, but what is on topmost layer of isolators - seat and pedals is strictly without any isolation at all so the vibrations can travel freely there.

@Ceolmor be careful with as soft isolators as this. You have to offset the isolators long way to the front and back in order not to get vertical travel of the isolators when pressing stiff pedals as I described in previous post. If you cannot get this much of offset, I would choose something stiffer. There's a lot of difference between 43 kg and 50 kg version of isolator, the difference in stiffness feels more like 40 kg than 7 kg from specification.

I would recommend you to use the pretension bolt anyway, so you will be able to dial in stiffness you need in certain range.

 

[Mr Latte]

Thanks for videos and explanation.... It does seem like a lot of movement though.

The gap beneath the rubber, not sure if you would be interested. I can recommend these and will use them in part of my own isolation. I would be curious if you could cut something like them or use a firmish isolator to fit in the gap of the U Sheer units you have.

More or less just to determine and test if this helps give more resistance and less movement. If it does then be excellent to get your feedback if you prefer it as it was or a bit firmer?


Sneak Peek
I don't want my seat to be that firm and I have sat in a mock up of the below for under my seat. Do feel that I want some degree of movement with it as I also believe with large LFE at each side, then it may help accentuate some of the directional activity. Suppose I won't know if I like or enjoy such till I am in it.

Have ordered 150mm bolts and rubber washers that will help put my seat supports together, getting the drill tomorrow.

In this image below is a mock-up of some chrome tubing fittings that will bolt to this aluminum box section but also the seat rails. The steel tubing and clamps will form the main material used for my rig. These are going to be used to form energy channels to direct where/how the tactile energy travels into the seat and body regions.

For example, my mounted left/right LFE / TST combo will send its vibrations in 4 controlled directions for different paths the tubing dictates. Spread via, the front/back/center of the seat but also a vertical path as well. My tactile, stereo representation for the seat will connect better with several body regions, running from underneath the knee, buttocks and to shoulder region but also with a removable option for the inner forearms. From testing already done over 2 months with mock solutions. This greatly enhances the stereo perception and delivery of the effects over a common method of just relying on tactile coming via underneath or from the side of the seat.



Some bits n bobs, LFE will be off the center section, TST will be hanging between the box sections in the gap the isolators create. Industrial springs will form as seconday isolation for the base frame of the cockpit.



I tried a single T300 isolator but then came up with the "Big Mac" idea of sandwiching two and have greater dampening. Although I do have concerns with potential sway for the seat. I had these from the old build idea from 2012 that used a very large wooden base. Now at $60 a pop they aint cheap, are also quite soft but the base section of them has steel. Wagner isolation pads also being used to help ensure as best possible this primary isolation helps reduce the vibrations below. It was also the biggest badass option I found that would suit this installation.

Lots of planning in this, I want a professional build. Notice how the clamps, box section, pads and isolators bases are ideal sizes.



It will be fascinating to see ideas and options people come up with but also to share what perhaps works well and what perhaps doesnt.

 

[Michal Burisin]

Yeah, it's a lot of movement, but I don't find any issues with it, as the movement of the platform is much smaller when in real usage.

Also I run the isolation a bit stiffer, as I'm using the pretension bolt to stiffen it up as I explained before. It has many benefits over the solution you are suggesting with placing some isolation inside the isolator frame.

My bolt solution creates tension from both sides, which is crucial for my installation.

I already tried to stiffen it up from below, as you are suggesting, by adding more isolators 4x 43 kg + additional 4 x 43 kg, and it had still issues with resonance which vanished once I had put more weight on the pedal plate from above. I started to think how to add more weight from above and came up with that solution with pretension bolt which works awesome.

I hope I will be up and running in the next two weeks, so I will post video with real operation.

I'm also thinking about using steel profiles to direct flow of the tactile, but I will need to try the new seat first to see how it works and then perhaps think what might be improved.

I'm curious how the T300 will work and if they won't move too much in front to back direction, otherwise they look really beefy

Another thing I'm trying is the parallel installation as you can see here:

I have the main supports of the seat going from front to back and everything below those isolators what is connecting left and right side is heavily isolated so there should be very little leak from left to right, thus improving separation.

Also I got 4 mm steel L profiles running along the sides of the seat and only thing between L and R side of the seat is thinner aluminium. I'm hoping this will improve L / R separation as well.

 

[Mr Latte]

Once the tactile hits the seat apart from where a tactile units primary energy makes contact, we do not really have control over its flow within the seat. Likewise, if your pedal platform is one solid plate section. So how or where the energy disperses we cant change apart from trying a different location to connect the tactile to the seat or platform used. How do we dictate to the tactile from the left unit to stay to the left of the seat or the left of a metal platform only? We also cant cut a seat in half to have independent L/R sides like we perhaps can do with a pedal base platform.

However with this you get the same thing happening, the point of installation will most likely have the primary energy. Here it is felt strongest and detected with that body region so feels purest prior to possible contamination from the other channel. Then it will disperse in whatever fashion it can within the seat frame or platform. So Left/Right channels will mix in the seat/platform as we have no control of it there. Installing a unit at the side or the rear may bring more energy to that region but the case scenario I am raising here is the limitation of a single point of entry or in some cases with seat riser mounts having two small bolt areas for the tactile to enter into the seat.

I will demonstrate this with the multipoint contact I decided to go with, As this doesnt rely on a single primary installation placement nor a single route of path for the primary energy to connect through. Also with Dual Role we have two active units for the channel. So my goal with this was to ensure specific body regions all get the L/R direct from a controlled channeled path. This channeled path connecting direct back with the tactile unit. I have never seen any other tactile build try to do this but it is one of the creative things I want to share and demonstrate how it works.

You may not want to stiffen the sheer isolators, I get what your saying by adding tension. These sheer units appear to have a bare metal surface, maybe that caused some of the reverb with the metal it was connecting too? Of course what you or each of us do is our own choices. Really though it comes down to how it feels when in the rig. This we cant tell from a video but I was surprised with the amount of movement that had.

If those sheer isolators move mainly in one direction, then all I can say is I would be curious to place 3 under a metal plate as top/middle/bottom for L/R sides but rotate the middle one 90 degrees? Wouldnt this then stop the amount of lateral movement possible if desired?

 

[Michal Burisin]

Once the tactile hits the seat apart from where a tactile units primary energy makes contact, we do not really have control over its flow within the seat. Likewise, if your pedal platform is one solid plate section. So how or where the energy disperses we cant change apart from trying a different location to connect the tactile to the seat or platform used. How do we dictate to the tactile from the left unit to stay to the left of the seat or the left of a metal platform only? We also cant cut a seat in half to have independent L/R sides like we perhaps can do with a pedal base platform.

However with this you get the same thing happening, the point of installation will most likely have the primary energy. Here it is felt strongest and detected with that body region so feels purest prior to possible contamination from the other channel. Then it will disperse in whatever fashion it can within the seat frame or platform. So Left/Right channels will mix in the seat/platform as we have no control of it there. Installing a unit at the side or the rear may bring more energy to that region but the case scenario I am raising here is the limitation of a single point of entry or in some cases with seat riser mounts having two small bolt areas for the tactile to enter into the seat.

I will demonstrate this with the multipoint contact I decided to go with, As this doesnt rely on a single primary installation placement nor a single route of path for the primary energy to connect through. Also with Dual Role we have two active units for the channel. So my goal with this was to ensure specific body regions all get the L/R direct from a controlled channeled path. This channeled path connecting direct back with the tactile unit. I have never seen any other tactile build try to do this but it is one of the creative things I want to share and demonstrate how it works.

I'm very curious what you will come up with, I have hard time imagining how it would be all connected together.

You may not want to stiffen the sheer isolators, I get what your saying by adding tension. These sheer units appear to have a bare metal surface, maybe that caused some of the reverb with the metal it was connecting too? Of course what you or each of us do is our own choices. Really though it comes down to how it feels when in the rig. This we cant tell from a video but I was surprised with the amount of movement that had.

If those sheer isolators move mainly in one direction, then all I can say is I would be curious to place 3 under a metal plate as top/middle/bottom for L/R sides but rotate the middle one 90 degrees? Wouldnt this then stop the amount of lateral movement possible if desired?

I have tried it, but the more squishy the isolation is, without affecting the feeling of the pedals, the clearer the tactile is with better L / R separation, at least on my installation.

The reverb was caused by whole 35 kg pedal construction catching resonance because the initial couple of milimeters of travel had very little resistance and it could move freely almost in all directions. The resonance was happening unexpectedly as it could start by multiple factors coming in together (what were separate tactile units doing).

This problem was solved altogether by applying pressure from above.

I have tried a lot with the various isolators I got and this is best solution so far I have come up with, I have stopped experimenting now as it's impossible to change things now. It would take me like 2 hours and 2 people to get the pedal platform from the rig

Going with rSeat instead of 8020 has it's downsides

 

[Michal Burisin]

Anyone got soft shoes to recommend?

I once tried driving in socks and tactile feeling improved by like 75 % , but it's really weird.

I still don't get guys getting expensive hydraulic pedals to have best simulation of brake pedal and then using socks . I prefer wearing shoes so I'm looking for some very soft ones suitable for driving.

 

[Ceolmor]

I wear indoor slippers with thin soles at the moment. Previously, I had the cheapest pair of canvas shoes I could find with very thin plastic soles.

 

[Mr Latte]

I'm very curious what you will come up with, I have hard time imagining how it would be all connected together.

I have lots of bits n bobs Ive been needing now ordered, bolts, washers etc and got new steel/chrome tubing for this seat section I will work on. Do have some holes to drill that need to be done with accuracy so certainly some challenges in the work that is required.

For the main L/R installations...
Rather than by a single installation point (like a plate a BK is bolted too) here, the contact area is just between the plate and the primary surface. Therefore all the energy enters via a single hotspot.

Why have one hotspot that the tactile enters by and has to then fill that surface material it is in contact with?

So I thought, why not deliver the primary energy by several paths to the seat rails, reaching the seat rails at the front/back and center. Not just, the tactile bolted to the centre with a connecting plate and it have to transfer the energy then to the front and the back of the rail.

The idea here is that this then can distribute the energy more efficiently with a wider spread of contact to the seat rail.

I think I use 5 contact points along the length of the seat rail for the TST and LFE Dual Role combo. However, I also found that we can deliver this energy into the seat rails, not just now over multiple contact points with a connection from one path/direction but allow the energy to flow via these tubing/channels from both sides using parallel tubing/channels.

I believe this lets the tactile flow more like a circuit so my hopes are it should help I believe to maintain the energy better but also with the multiple points of contact let this energy spread more effectively too.

From these parallel tubing/channels they then also can connect to the underside of knees and a connection point to the shoulder. A further vertical tubing/channel comes directly from the BK/TST combo for supports to incorporate the forearms. This also surprised me in how well it works and the detail that is felt.

 

[schmitzna]

Anyone got soft shoes to recommend?

I once tried driving in socks and tactile feeling improved by like 75 % , but it's really weird.

I still don't get guys getting expensive hydraulic pedals to have best simulation of brake pedal and then using socks . I prefer wearing shoes so I'm looking for some very soft ones suitable for driving.

Buy a cheap set of wrestling shoes. They even have tread on the sides of the soles that help with heel-toe. The soles are very thin and there is no cushion.

 

[schmitzna]

Last night I built up all the waveforms in Audigy to map to the channels I am using for my transducers. A question popped into mind that I would like to verify. For a right side bump, where you have waveforms for two channels on the right side, if only the front axle on the right hits a bump, do both waveforms fire (I would think so) or just one of the channels?

Also, is there a way to configure SSW for front-axle and rear-axle instead of left-side and right-side? I do like that about SimVibe, but SimVibe doesn't have any lateral acceleration effects that I really like in SSW.

 

[Mr Latte]

Last night I built up all the waveforms in Audigy to map to the channels I am using for my transducers. A question popped into mind that I would like to verify. For a right side bump, where you have waveforms for two channels on the right side, if only the front axle on the right hits a bump, do both waveforms fire (I would think so) or just one of the channels?

Also, is there a way to configure SSW for front-axle and rear-axle instead of left-side and right-side? I do like that about SimVibe, but SimVibe doesn't have any lateral acceleration effects that I really like in SSW.

Indeed, SSW offers Left/Right sides for bumps but not effect numbers for individual wheels for some reason. You could ask Andre why this is. Although I cant say that it feels weird, some people may prefer the activity over 2 channels to increase the immersion to both pedal/seat at same time.

Shakeit has an option for Left/Right activity for sides but also an effect for each independent wheel. We do find with each software option they all have some differences or perhaps pros/cons.

For Longitudinal effects, we then use the front and rear pairs.

 

[XKeeperX]

Please somebody can confirm this:
Goal: Simvibe, chassis mode with 2 transducers for front/rear (in the middle, no need for left/right)

Green soundcard output:
3,5mm => 2xRAC => just plug the white part in the 2 channel amp (ch1)

Black soundcard output:
3,5mm => 2xRAC => just plug the red part in the 2 channel amp (ch2)

Read tons of descriptions/forums but didn´t find an answer if this is possible....

 

[schmitzna]

Please somebody can confirm this:
Goal: Simvibe, chassis mode with 2 transducers for front/rear (in the middle, no need for left/right)

Green soundcard output:
3,5mm => 2xRAC => just plug the white part in the 2 channel amp (ch1)

Black soundcard output:
3,5mm => 2xRAC => just plug the red part in the 2 channel amp (ch2)

Read tons of descriptions/forums but didn´t find an answer if this is possible....

Probably better to use extensions mode and use the pedals output for the front and seat for the rear. There are effects for front/rear bump and texture you can use in this mode.

When i proposed using a stereo to mono cable to combine left & right into a single transducer in chassis mode, Bernie said chassis mode has extra processing laterally across left and right that wouldn't combine well. In your proposal, it sounds like you will be losing one side of the car's inputs .

 

[XKeeperX]

OK - thank you.

Didn´t know that in extensions mode it´s also possible to separate the signal. I always read that the signal for seat/shifter & pedal/wheel is always the same and it doesn´t matter which one u use. (it´s just a "label")

 

[schmitzna]

OK - thank you.

Didn´t know that in extensions mode it´s also possible to separate the signal. I always read that the signal for seat/shifter & pedal/wheel is always the same and it doesn´t matter which one u use. (it´s just a "label")

Check out image 1B on page 4 in the following https://simxperience.com/Portals/0/Files/SimVibe/SimVibe Setup Guide.pdf

This is the setup I am running: BK Mini on front-left audio output under the seat (rear bump & texture, engine, gear shift & impact feedback). Dayton puck on front-right audio output for the shifter (gear shift and engine). BK Mini on rear-left audio output for the pedals (front bump & texture, brake lockup, impact feedback).

When I play with SSW, I remap the effects in SSW so I don't have to change any cables.

 

[Mr Latte]

Read tons of descriptions/forums but didn´t find an answer if this is possible....

How did you not find an answer?
Page 1 of Simvibe manual here is pretty obvious:

EM allows you to place what effects and settings you want for each output used.
However, each channel in EM operates in MONO by its own as it is not multi-dimensional.

One thing that confuses people a lot is that we do not necessarily need to place the tactile to the label names used. For example, the output labeled as "Shifter" could be installed onto a users "Pedals"

As we see from the diagram, that "Seat" and "Shifter" both use the "GREEN" output in EM.
So a user could if they wanted, install these to "Seat & Pedals" instead and using the one single "GREEN" output from the soundcard.

The user just has to remember that "Shifter" as labeled in Simvibe (for this case) represents their "Pedal" tactile. Hope you get to grips with it okay...

 

[XKeeperX]

Wow - that´s really confusing without explanation...

So that means:
3,5mm from GREEN soundcard output >>> 2 RCA to my 2 channel stereo amp.
With that I´m able to use the SEAT & SHIFTER labeled transducer in SimVibe.

And now I can mount my transducers under my seat & pedal-plate and the control about front/rear effects is just controlled within the software and has nothing to do with front/rear soundcard output...?

If this is correct then I got it...