Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[anton_Chez]

New SimX video up on Youtube regarding Simvibe configuration. Not sure if it's a re release or brand new. I'll have to watch it later.

Edit: Just got a chance to flick through it. Don't bother with it unless you don't know how to connect your amps and configure your wiring. Absolutely nothing on settings and sliders.

 

[MJH78]

Hi all,
I have a quick question on people's setups. I recently got my first tactile transducer (Buttkicker LFE) which is attached under my seat. I'm now thinking about bringing that second channel to use and adding another for the pedal end. However, I haven't been able to quite figure out the best way to set it all up. I use Heusinkveld Ultimate pedals which require a pedal plate with very little flex. I'm thinking that adding any kind of isolation between the rest of the rig and the plate would immediately introduce a lot of flex to the pedals. I used sorbothane isolation washers on my seat which is fine there, but I'm not sure that would be solid enough for the pedals.
The only alternative I can think of is to actually isolate a foot rest from the pedals themselves and attach the transducer to that and therefore keep the pedals themselves out of the vibrating area.
What has your approach to this been? I guess it is not much of an issue if you have non load cell pedals, but I can't imagine someone here hasn't come up with a clever solution to this. Or do you just attach it to your rig and isolate the rig itself from the floor?

 

[Hiro Abe]

@MJH78 If you have an 8020 rig, you can do what I had set up for a while: invert the pedals - mounted solidly within a frame. Then mount the transducer under the heel plate which you can isolate on its own. Pre-built rigs are certainly more challenging. Throughout this thread there are pics of others' solutions.

 

[Ceolmor]

@MJH78 I use the same Heusinkveld baseplate. See below. This is then attached to my 80/20 rig.

I have no rubber isolation immediately below this pedal arrangement, just between the main 80/20 rig and the floor. Therefore, I have no problem with flex from my HE Pros.

You will want vibration to reach the pedals themselves, so I would not separate the heel plate from the pedals, unless you attach a Buttkicker to both. You will want to feel the engine and bumps through the pedals, in particular the throttle.

The problem with my arrangement is that the baseplate is only connected to the Buttkickers by the 4 bolts at the top of the HE supporting brackets. So I am loosing a lot of vibration I think.

You could drill 4 holes through the heel area of the baseplate to attach the LFE and countersink the holes on the top of the plate so it is flush.

A photo of your rig would be helpful

 

[MJH78]

Thanks @Hiro Abe
That was a solution I was considering as well. I do have 8020 rig, so it wouldn't be too hard to accomplish and I have considered inverting the pedals anyway. I keep trawling through the thread but it is taking a while at this length! So far all I've seen is people talking about isolating the pedals as opposed to actually doing it. I do have a couple of meters of spare 80/20 so I will probably try your suggestion. I'll just need to find a suitable plate now to go underneath that would hold the transducer.

 

[MJH78]

Thanks @Ceolmor
That was the initial plan I was considering as well, but I then started to wonder how much the rig would vibrate itself without any isolation to the pedals. I have the Sim Labs P1 rig which has it's own adjustable pedal deck made entirely of 80/20 but this can easily be replaced.
The idea of the pedals themselves vibrating does sound appealing. I'm guessing there isn't going to be a perfect solution to this, but perhaps once I get the second transducer I will just have to experiment.

 

[Hiro Abe]

@MJH78 I used 3/4" ply. It worked pretty well but I think the transducer itself wasn't producing the effect I was looking for. I have since retired them but considering getting mini LFEs. You can see in my pic below the thick sorbothane washers I used to promote isolation. You can see I also split the deck to further isolate between L/R (easier to conceive for me since I only run a two pedal set up though you can do clutch-brake/throttle split).

 

[Mr Latte]

Tips?

We should aim to have the vibes travel from both the pedal base and the pedal stems.
This delivers the tactile vibrations into the "heel and toes". It creates a complete circuit with the foot. So if inverting pedals you want the energy to be able to transfer to both locations easily.

With high-end pedals that will receive a large amount of pressure, we need the surface used to be solid but then also requiring firm isolation methods and avoid too much squishiness.

These are some I would like to try and possibly the 95Kg or 152Kg units.
152KG Load or Higher

I find it a bit comical that some people use quite high end tactile then think a £2 bobbin isolator from ebay is an efficent solution for the amount of tactile larger units can put out. We do not need to rely on one solution or method used. If anything we often see in professional installations for soundproofing or vibration dampening that more than one type of material or solution is used.

I personally have an extreme issue with multiple large tactile to be used on a rig but avoid the vibrations occurring in the living room below. Not everyone has this problem but it is something that can require a lot of effort and I believe more than one form of isolation material to be used.

@MJH78 indeed, nobody has really it seems put in time and effort testing different possibilities or various isolator solutions. I tried to suggest several 8020 owners got together on ideas. Some went about doing things and not really looking at all options but certainly, there are things I would do I have not seen someone do. You are right however, experimentation is indeed key.

Objectives?
Really what we should seek to be doing is better maintain and determine the flow of the tactile but also let the tactile unit(s) used work in an efficient manner and use isolation to help reduce a large flow of energy become wasted by pouring freely into the cockpits main-frame rather than the actual user.

Its important to not limit or reduce the primary energy directly from the tactile by having it need to transfer via a "reduced contact surface" to reach the point of body contact.

I see this, as an issue with how @Ceolmor installed his. If we think for a moment to question, really what makes the tactie energy go up and not down? Yet the direct contact area and surface plate he has the tactile installed onto. It appears that it places more contact with his main-cockpit frame profile than the small/thin feet the pedal plate uses So its clear much of the tactile energy will freely with no isolation whatsoever used pour below and not above into where we want it.

 

[Michal Burisin]

Tips?

We should aim to have the vibes travel from both the pedal base and the pedal stems.
This delivers the tactile vibrations into the "heel and toes". It creates a complete circuit with the foot. So if inverting pedals you want the energy to be able to transfer to both locations easily.

With high-end pedals that will receive a large amount of pressure, we need the surface used to be solid but then also requiring firm isolation methods and avoid too much squishiness.

These are some I would like to try and possibly the 95Kg or 152Kg units.
152KG Load or Higher

I find it a bit comical that some people use quite high end tactile then think a £2 bobbin isolator from ebay is an efficent solution for the amount of tactile larger units can put out. We do not need to rely on one solution or method used. If anything we often see in professional installations for soundproofing or vibration dampening that more than one type of material or solution is used.

I personally have an extreme issue with multiple large tactile to be used on a rig but avoid the vibrations occurring in the living room below. Not everyone has this problem but it is something that can require a lot of effort and I believe more than one form of isolation material to be used.

@MJH78 indeed, nobody has really it seems put in time and effort testing different possibilities or various isolator solutions. I tried to suggest several 8020 owners got together on ideas. Some went about doing things and not really looking at all options but certainly, there are things I would do I have not seen someone do. You are right however, experimentation is indeed key.

Objectives?
Really what we should seek to be doing is better maintain and determine the flow of the tactile but also let the tactile unit(s) used work in an efficient manner and use isolation to help reduce a large flow of energy become wasted by pouring freely into the cockpits main-frame rather than the actual user.

Its important to not limit or reduce the primary energy directly from the tactile by having it need to transfer via a "reduced contact surface" to reach the point of body contact.

I see this, as an issue with how @Ceolmor installed his. If we think for a moment to question, really what makes the tactie energy go up and not down? Yet the direct contact area and surface plate he has the tactile installed onto. It appears that it places more contact with his main-cockpit frame profile than the small/thin feet the pedal plate uses So its clear much of the tactile energy will freely with no isolation whatsoever used pour below and not above into where we want it.

Hey, I think with my installation I completely solved all the vibration going through to the floor. Just 2 layers of vibration mounts and couple kilos of anti-vibration sheets in several layers , so now I'm dealing just with remaining audible products of vibrations.

@Mr Latte I have just soft isolators and they work for me way better than hard ones allowing for more "movement" in the designated parts of the rig, for me seat and pedals.

I'm using the same isolator that you are considering, but just 43 kg version. I found it too soft, so I stiffened it up like this:

I drilled hole through both plates and run long bolt through there (black). Blue boxes on image are stacked rubber washers, via tightening the nut I can set "preload" or "stiffness" of the isolation. It's very easy to compare the effects on tactile. Softer isolation works better for me than stiff. If I wouldn't have seat and pedals on isolators, I would get very little tactile even from big units as the rig is too stiff...

The other benefit is, that it's squashed from both sides, so there's always tension. If you don't have opposing tension, it's easy for isolated part to catch resonance causing unpleasant vibration and noise. Also it feels much better, as the isolated part is more responsive to both directions of the piston inside tactile units.

So I would recommend trying this solution before ordering all variants of the isolators, I think it's easily tuned this way with additional benefits.

Anyway I had sim racing on hold for a while and I was enjoying summer for a bit. Now I'm back at it, I'm currently rebuilding seat part completely. No more wood and soft bucket, the aluminium seat feels great, I still don't have it ready for testing, but I'm quite optimistic, the tactile units will be mounted much closer to the body so I hope for more power .

 

[MJH78]

@Mr Latte those isolators certainly look the business and have the price to match. I think they might be the best option though as you can go to such high max load with them. I do fear however that there is a natural trade off and that ultimately you will have to settle somewhere. The stiffer the isolator, presumably the less effective it will be. That just seems logical to me. I think I will try the 152kg ones. At least if they are still not satisfactory for the pedals, I would be able to use them for my seat.

 

[Mr Latte]

@Michal Burisin I think it needs in-depth look and comparison of different isolators or materials used. Its why I suggested before 8020 users should work together in discussing options. I can certainly give input on suggestions but the proof is in the testing.

Soft isolators may help the general rebound but the problem here with the pedals is when people are using such high-end types of pedals with a great deal of force being applied they do not want the pedals or pedal deck to move around when depressed.

Personally I think we could have a small amount of depression with a softer material used but then this combined with a harder isolator to maintain the stiffness in the pedal deck. Below the point of the isolators used, then we can also apply antivibration deflection materials to help further prevent vibrations go through the frame and into the floor.

Here at home, I have a wide range of isolators and materials already awaiting installation and to be used on my own rig. Maybe in future, I can give more feedback based on some tests or comparisons. In time people will see my own solutions and they control the operation of 6 tactile units being implemented for both the seat and pedal sections. These being 3 channels (separating engine from bumps etc) but of course with my preference in using two units per channel in Dual Role.

I do however applaud that you at least combined materials in your own rig.
Yet see how few or how little in general people with tactile on these forums or others too with 8020 often do nothing than just attach the tactile direct to the profile or via a plate. Sure of course it still can be felt but they attempt to bring no control of the tactile path of travel, it's dispersion of energy, how to better maintain it or introduce some level of vibration control.

So is better possible, I say for sure.

 

[Hiro Abe]

Soft isolators may help the general rebound but the problem here with the pedals is when people are using such high-end types of pedals with a great deal of force being applied they do not want the pedals or pedal deck to move around when depressed.

This is why, I contend, with a separate heel plate it is much easier to implement isolation. I don't have high-end pedals but I do have a load cell brake - CSL Elite - and have it set where a good deal of pressure is required. With my brake solidly mounted I have no problem with flex. However, conversely, due to the pressure of load cell braking we also have to contend with seat movement because you need to anchor your butt against the back of your seat so you can apply the needed pressure on the brake. This is where my solution partially failed. I incorporated nearly 3 inch thick rubber washers between my seat rails and my 8020 frame. This worked well with isolating the vibes but I was finding it was letting the seat move too much. I reconfigured some things with my set up and currently have my seat solidly mounted. I'm getting terrific feedback from my LFEs but I can tell a lot of energy is going through the frame and reaching the floor.

I like the looks of those shear mounts but as discussed, it's a balancing act of offering the isolation but being stiff enough so flex is virtually imperceptible. I've also been considering spring mounts under the base of my rig to totally quell vibes reaching the floor but those are a tad pricey. Currently I use anti-vibration pads between my base and the floor which do help but up to a point.

 

[Mr Latte]

@Hiro Abe
Some flex is maybe okay but its maybe not ideal when the seat flexes one direction and the pedals the other, like you say when the body is pushing into the seat and the users leg pushing into the pedals. This may be even hard to avoid in my own build ideas.

I am getting close to starting my own build, very frustrating being almost at a point I can begin but still not quite ready. Some recent hardware purchases held back getting some of the last things I needed to commence work on the build. I intend to buy a pillar drill this week needed to drill aluminum box sections and steel Buttkicker plates I purchased for the seat section.

Still have to work on what bolts/nuts washers etc that are needed but I will as stated before, share in a blog thread what I am doing as it progresses and highlight my own efforts/ideas being implemented. It may not all work out as planned, this is what testing and finding solutions is all about.

The build is however very creative and will go beyond the common thing done like just bolting a tactile unit to a plate and then that plate bolted to a rig frame section or seat/pedal platform. I want to use the experience I have already gathered but still learn more during the building process with the ideas I have.

Below hardware is the now finalised units and that have all been purchased (over a long period of time) but I think its obvious such will be unlike any other rigs and the tactile immersion desired is very high just as the level of hardware being used is amongst the best possible. Its gonna be quite a challenge too but certainly one I relish.


Seat / Back Section (6x Units)
2x BK LFE & 2x TST 429 in Dual Role = Main Bumps / Stereo Lateral G-Forces
1x BK Concert & 1x TST 329 Gold in Dual Role = Engine / Gear & Acc Long G-Forces

Pedals / Front Section (6x Units)
2x BK LFE & 2x TST 429 in Dual Role = Main Bumps / Stereo Lateral G-Forces
1x BK Concert & 1x TST 209 in Dual Role = Engine / Gear & Acc Long G-Forces

iNuke DSP Amps (6x Units All Fan Modified)
2x DSP 1000
3x DSP 3000
1x DSP 6000

SSW Intergration
6x SSW Channels via Dual Units Per Channel = 12 Tactile Unit Channels
2 Channel Audio will be mixed with SSW when desired but controlled using additional hardware.

Speaker Audio
2 Channel Speaker Audio (A/B) stereo front/back will be implemented, intentionally not 5.1

This will incorporate:
4x Speakers (Front/Rear Stereo)
4x Subwoofers (Front/Rear Stereo)

Speaker audio will include, subharmonics processing, crossover and EQ control via additional hardware.

Its a bit different from the norm......

 

[Michal Burisin]

@Hiro Abe
Some flex is maybe okay but its maybe not ideal when the seat flexes one direction and the pedals the other, like you say when the body is pushing into the seat and the users leg pushing into the pedals. This may be even hard to avoid in my own build ideas.

I am getting close to starting my own build, very frustrating being almost at a point I can begin but still not quite ready. Some recent hardware purchases held back getting some of the last things I needed to commence work on the build. I intend to buy a pillar drill this week needed to drill aluminum box sections and steel Buttkicker plates I purchased for the seat section.

Still have to work on what bolts/nuts washers etc that are needed but I will as stated before, share in a blog thread what I am doing as it progresses and highlight my own efforts/ideas being implemented. It may not all work out as planned, this is what testing and finding solutions is all about.

The build is however very creative and will go beyond the common thing done like just bolting a tactile unit to a plate and then that plate bolted to a rig frame section or seat/pedal platform. I want to use the experience I have already gathered but still learn more during the building process with the ideas I have.

Below hardware is the now finalised units and that have all been purchased (over a long period of time) but I think its obvious such will be unlike any other rigs and the tactile immersion desired is very high just as the level of hardware being used is amongst the best possible. Its gonna be quite a challenge too but certainly one I relish.


Seat / Back Section (6x Units)
2x BK LFE & 2x TST 429 in Dual Role = Main Bumps / Stereo Lateral G-Forces
1x BK Concert & 1x TST 329 Gold in Dual Role = Engine / Gear & Acc Long G-Forces

Pedals / Front Section (6x Units)
2x BK LFE & 2x TST 429 in Dual Role = Main Bumps / Stereo Lateral G-Forces
1x BK Concert & 1x TST 209 in Dual Role = Engine / Gear & Acc Long G-Forces

iNuke DSP Amps (6x Units All Fan Modified)
2x DSP 1000
3x DSP 3000
1x DSP 6000

SSW Intergration
6x SSW Channels via Dual Units Per Channel = 12 Tactile Unit Channels
2 Channel Audio will be mixed with SSW when desired but controlled using additional hardware.

Speaker Audio
2 Channel Speaker Audio (A/B) stereo front/back will be implemented, intentionally not 5.1

This will incorporate:
4x Speakers (Front/Rear Stereo)
4x Subwoofers (Front/Rear Stereo)

Speaker audio will include, subharmonics processing, crossover and EQ control via additional hardware.

Its a bit different from the norm......

These vibration mounts have virtually zero travel front to back. They have a lot of travel side to side and up and down. Up and down being most important for tactile.

I have offset the pivot point for isolators like this for the seat:

And like this for pedals:

The isolators are red. The pedal stems are green in the middle. If I press the pedals, even really hard, I wont get basically any vertical movement from front isolators, because it's so far in the front.

If I had pedal construction much more shorter and front isolators would be directly under pedal stems, and back isolators were also closer to them, I would get really lot of up & down movement from the isolators. Front would go down and back up.

With this layout, I run 4x 43 kg isolators and I get no movement front to back and up and down when I press the pedals - I have HPP PRX hydraulic pedals. However when I step on the platform with force being applied vertically, I get a lot of movement.

If I step on one side, the top of the platform moves like 3 - 4 cm side to side, so it's feels extremely wobbly, but once you press pedals, you get ZERO movement. While with big BK units, which creates vertical force, the platform moves a lot creating fake "motion" which feels awesome, I'll do video on this later if you would be interested.

I used the same principle on the seat as you can see which I have in progress right now. I use there 4x 50 kg versions, but I will try to switch them for softer 4x 43 kg to see what will be better.

I have tried quite a lot of isolation options and found this best and I chose it as my final solution.

@Mr Latte that's crazy amount of tactile you're building into the rig. I would be hard pressed to find mounting positions for all these dual role TSTs I just got another 2x BK Concerts for engine, as the Advances were to weak and loud, now totalling 6x BK Concerts + 2x TST239

 

[Mr Latte]

Would be interested in seeing videos of not just the pedal deck but also how much movement is in the seat with the rear tactile in operation.

I have concerns with own ideas as seat will likely also have some movement based on the mounting solution I have planned.

 

[Michal Burisin]

Would be interested in seeing videos of not just the pedal deck but also how much movement is in the seat with the rear tactile in operation.

I have concerns with own ideas as seat will likely also have some movement based on the mounting solution I have planned.

I guess on seat there wouldn't be that much movement, as it's weighted down with persons weight. On pedals it's quite nice movement. However I have it completely disassembled right now. I'm handing over the seat construction to weld BK supports there, so I won't have it back for like 2 weeks.

I'll try to do at least some video on pedal platform to illustrate my point.

 

[MJH78]

@Michal Burisin That's very interesting that the isolators have virtually no flex in one direction while still being flexible in the other directions. That means perhaps you can "have your cake and eat it". If they are that stiff even at 43kg that is a good sign. In that case it might in fact be counter productive to go with a higher stiffness like 150kg that I was thinking of before..

 

[Ceolmor]

I've just ordered 4 of those isolators at 43kg to fit below my pedal section, and I will report back, probably in about 1 weeks time.

 

[Mr Latte]

A soft initial surface may help generate a mechanical vertical leverage to some extents. Also having softer isolators but specifically placed to balance the load could still offer a firm enough support. I recall seeing a guy building a platform years ago with tennis balls sandwiched in between a top/bottom layer. So even with a softer isolator solution if enough of them are used or specifically placed, it may help towards achieving the sensation desired.

So I suppose from testing not only potentially different isolator solutions or indeed harder compounds we will find ways to better determine what is the best approaches to take or materials to combine.

My initial concern with the amount of antivibration layers/materials Michal was using was if they would then deaden parts of the rig. I think care needs to be taken here.

Most steel or types of aluminium, wood all tend to transfer vibrations well, each material may enable the transfer at different speeds or indeed with greater dispersion than others. Each material may also have reverb issues but at different frequency ranges than others. Something more solid like iron or marble may not from what I have read be as good a material for transferring tactile.

I considered that in using any of the antivibration materials they would only be used below the initial isolators. Forming part of a secondary antivibration solution. This way to avoid having direct contact with the primary surface platform the tactile is installed to or diminish its liveliness. In some situations, we may need a small amount placed to help cure reverb in hollow materials. I have concerns with the aluminum box/frame (used in shop fronts/doorframes) I will use to support my cockpit frame seat/pedal sections. This alu-box is then above and below its isolators. I then bolt the main chassis frame and seat sections to these. I don't want it to ring/ping or have some echo type reverb. So if it does I am prepared to control this with some amount of vibration or acoustic deadening. Again much of this we can discuss as potential possibilities but it comes down to testing ideas for real and then moving forward with the next step or find another solution based on the outcome.

I would still like to discover results between the mid-stiffer sheer isolators currently being discussed.

My seats isolation alone is expensive, it has to be substantial with 6 powerful units being used on the seat. The isolation and dampening materials alone cost in the region of £450 and is approx 5" tall spread over four supporting feet.

 

[Mr Latte]

Some Clark TST bargins at Parts Express, these usually get snapped up quick.
A TST 209 may be ideal to help promote engine RPM for seat or pedals, working as a secondary unit with a BK.

I got one recently for my pedal section (engine tactile) as I cannot justify at this point spending the money on a second TST 329 Gold to match the one I have intended for the seats/spine region.