Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Spinelli]

I'm pretty sure you can do all sorts of waveform customizations with the Jetseat software, Simshaker Wheels.

I would imagine things like a seat/platoform mover and "g-seat" (ie. Gs4 seat) would simulate g's much better than tactile stuff since those give a sustained force feeling while tactile doesn't give you a sustained forcr but instead gives you vibrations/bumps and g-forces feel like a sustained force, not vibration/bumps.

 

[Mr Latte]

I'm pretty sure you can do all sorts of waveform customizations with the Jetseat software, Simshaker Wheels.

I would imagine things like a seat/platoform mover and "g-seat" (ie. Gs4 seat) would simulate g's much better than tactile stuff since those give a sustained force feeling while tactile doesn't give you a sustained forcr but instead gives you vibrations/bumps and g-forces feel like a sustained force, not vibration/bumps.

Thats my point, I've not yet seen anyone do such for Jetseat and if the standard .wav files SSW uses are anything to go by then its likely people could be getting more variation and better sensations with custom files for its effects.

Before creating such, it makes sense to know what frequencies these motors generally work with or if the software tool for creating/converting does all this. Would be good if someone highlighted it.


G Load
As others stated it comes down to cost. Yes a G Seat is quite unique that applies physical pressure to the body but the paddles only have limited about of travel. This does not mean we cannot get an enjoyable or useful immersion for such with tactile.

SSW having this effect makes it one of the points that improves over Simvibe.

The better the tactile then the more energy such an effect can have. This is one of the benefits of the larger models to make full use of frequencies below 20Hz that contain much more bandwidth. In layamns terms, a much deeper and stronger sense of vibration not possible on the smaller or common models.

I can assure you, its quite easy to feel what side of my seat the load is on in corners, the length or duration does not matter the load is constant throughout based on the telemetry values.

 

[Spinelli]

Yes but a transducer just gives vibrations, it doesn't push into you like a g-seat or a platform/seat mover therefore transducers should theoretically be better for general vibrations like road "noise," engine revs, bumps, etc. Something like the jeatseat is probably better at relaying grip than g's. For example, on right hand corners, have the left side of the jetseat motors spin faster and faster as the grip loads up on the left tyres more and more and then have the motors quickly drop off and back up as grip is lost and re-gained according to the tyre's slip.

I'm thinking the poor man's, simple "FFB cockpit" would consist of:
- 1x Next Level Racing Motion v3 (G's, chassis movements, some bumps - more of the body and suspension forces)
- 1x Buttkicker Gamer 2 for engine revs/vibrations, road "noise," and bumps
- 1x Gametrix KW-908 Jetseat or ForceFeel o8 for tyre grip/slip/load

I just don't know if the Jetseat's/ForceFeel's feedback will be lost amongst the barrage of forces coming from the NLMv3 and Buttkicker.


P.S. Has anyone tried the Sim Racing Studio ShakeSeat? https://www.simracingstudio.com/product-page/srs-shakekit-shakeseat-integrated-with-shakebox-lite

 

[Mr Latte]

Yes but a transducer just gives vibrations, it doesn't push into you like a g-seat or a platform/seat mover therefore transducers should theoretically be better for general vibrations like road "noise," engine revs, bumps, etc. Something like the jeatseat is probably better at relaying grip than g's. For example, on right hand corners, have the left side of the jetseat motors spin faster and faster as the grip loads up on the left tyres more and more and then have the motors quickly drop off and back up as grip is lost and re-gained according to the tyre's slip.

I'm thinking the poor man's, simple "FFB cockpit" would consist of:
- 1x Next Level Racing Motion v3 (G's, chassis movements, some bumps - more of the body and suspension forces)
- 1x Buttkicker Gamer 2 for engine revs/vibrations, road "noise," and bumps
- 1x Gametrix KW-908 Jetseat or, it's coming replacement, the ForceFeel o8 for tyre grip/slip/load

I just don't know if the Jetseat's/ForceFeel's feedback will be lost amongst the barrage of forces coming from the NLMv3 and Buttkicker.


P.S. Has anyone tried the Sim Racing Studio ShakeSeat? https://www.simracingstudio.com/product-page/srs-shakekit-shakeseat-integrated-with-shakebox-lite

A Jetseat is a really affordable and simple way to get multizone vibrations into a seat. It will not bring a great deal of energy for effects in comparison to bigger tactile units. Sure it will bring new immersion and enjoyment also with it being in contact with the body it could work well with a full tactile array as well. I am sort of curious about adding one but not convinced it will add a lot to the tactile I am already using.

As what if a person has a multi-tactile array and installation that reaches the body zones from specifically placed contact with each individual shakers energy? Would they benefit much adding a Jetseat?

Your example however does nothing for immersion in the pedals. Here a G-Seat, Jet Seat or indeed a VR3s immersion can be improved with tactile. To bring into the immersion our feet/leg regions to work in conjunction with what we feel in our torso and from a seat.


G-Force is a tricky element with tactile as what do we do for the vibration that helps represent it? Unlike a large bump, or curb, here our brain joins the dots so to speak from our steering input, what we see, with the audio response we hear from the often positional bump and then with the vibration of the car going over the bump also potentially positionable to the same side. It combines all those senses for great immersion.

Yet a G-Load only has a visual reference for the speed and steering input applied through a corner but no defined audible response. So how should it be represented by tactile. I have attempted to create a .wav that feels like the whole car's body/vibrating and this vibration can contain very low Hz to bring a sense of weight to the specific side the G-Load is on.

Does it push into the body, no, but because it's tactile we can have it in the seat and pedal regions to work combined to encompass the senses more. We can also have it bring varying character or sensation. Tactile has some advantages over motion as they are very different but each can bring superb immersion or specific sensations.

Good simulation is not always about what happens in the real world scenario and trying to mimic that. I find it's about bringing the interaction with the simulation, connecting that with our senses to new levels of immersion for what the sim is doing.

 

[Hiro Abe]

I've been doing a fair amount of testing with @Mr Latte lately and wanted to share something I came across which he has mentioned in the past and really made a difference.

As mentioned and depicted in a previous post, I have ADX shakers mounted under split L/R ply heel decks. I've been getting good feedback from them but sometimes they would be a bit buzzy feeling. It hit me last night that I hadn't tested the ADX against a sweep of frequency tones. Very easy to do from the online tone generator. What I found is they have a pretty limited range in regards to desirable feedback. It was something like 25 Hz - 70 Hz. I adjusted my crossover setting in my DSP and felt a terrific improvement in feedback. No more buzziness! Again, this has all been recommended by Mr Latte and I am here to reinforce that this testing is worth the effort. This would be beneficial whether you are running SSW or SV.

 

[Vetie]

Hello everyone,

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread, its full of information!
I am new to Sim Racing and have just purchased the GTUltimate Cockpit v2 with the motion platform V3 (should be here on Friday).

After reading the 31 pages of this thread, I am still undecided if I should pick up the Jetseat or Buttkicker Gamer 2 or both. Or is the motion platform V3 enough where I wouldn't need additional feedback.

Does anyone have any suggestions on which way to go?
Thanks

 

[Spinelli]

Hello everyone,

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread, its full of information!
I am new to Sim Racing and have just purchased the GTUltimate Cockpit v2 with the motion platform V3 (should be here on Friday).

After reading the 31 pages of this thread, I am still undecided if I should pick up the Jetseat or Buttkicker Gamer 2 or both. Or is the motion platform V3 enough where I wouldn't need additional feedback.

Does anyone have any suggestions on which way to go?
Thanks

I haven't actually setup my NLMv3 but I decided Buttkicker first before the Jetseat/ForceFeel o8 (If I even buy a Jetseat/ForceFeel o8). First off, it's much more powerful. Second, it compliments the motion platform because it fills all the "road noise," engine revs, bumps, etc. that the motion platform won't be outputting (or outputting at as high a frequency and/or magnitude). Third, the NLMv3 comes with a Buttkicker Gamer mount so why not use it? It would feel like I'm not getting the full NLMv3 experience if I don't mount the Buttkicker since the platform was designed to mount one. In my mind, they're both part of the NLMv3 "package."

 

[anton_Chez]

I've been doing a fair amount of testing with @Mr Latte lately and wanted to share something I came across which he has mentioned in the past and really made a difference.

As mentioned and depicted in a previous post, I have ADX shakers mounted under split L/R ply heel decks. I've been getting good feedback from them but sometimes they would be a bit buzzy feeling. It hit me last night that I hadn't tested the ADX against a sweep of frequency tones. Very easy to do from the online tone generator. What I found is they have a pretty limited range in regards to desirable feedback. It was something like 25 Hz - 70 Hz. I adjusted my crossover setting in my DSP and felt a terrific improvement in feedback. No more buzziness! Again, this has all been recommended by Mr Latte and I am here to reinforce that this testing is worth the effort. This would be beneficial whether you are running SSW or SV.

Second that. I spent a little bit of time testing the range of the Mini LFE units once I realised there was a problem with them at a certain hz. Once you know the feelings that your specific units give you at a given hz, you can then use that information to adjust the effects you have enabled in game, or try to avoid troublesome areas that may give buzz, unwanted noise, distortion or an uncomfortable rattle somewhere in the pedal deck or seat where contact is 100 percent of the time. Simvibe allows easy selection of hz for some effects and an arbitrary slider that's a little non intuitive for others and SSW requires you to adjust and produce new .wav files to target specific hz. Either way and whichever one you use, knowing the most productive range for your units is a big help when customising effects.

 

[Vetie]

I haven't actually setup my NLMv3 but I decided Buttkicker first before the Jetseat/ForceFeel o8 (If I even buy a Jetseat/ForceFeel o8). First off, it's much more powerful. Second, it compliments the motion platform because it fills all the "road noise," engine revs, bumps, etc. that the motion platform won't be outputting (or outputting at as high a frequency and/or magnitude). Third, the NLMv3 comes with a Buttkicker Gamer mount so why not use it? It would feel like I'm not getting the full NLMv3 experience if I don't mount the Buttkicker since the platform was designed to mount one. In my mind, they're both part of the NLMv3 "package."

Thanks for the feedback....
I just ordered a Buttkicker Gamer 2 that I will be connecting to my NLRV3 using the supplied Buttkicker mount.

Really looking forward to my new toys!

 

[anton_Chez]

You're lucky. Those things were out of stock for who knows how long when I was looking at entering tactile. I reckon a year before people we able to order them again.

 

[Hiro Abe]

Another discovery from all the testing I've been doing as of late: soundcards make a difference! Meaning, using different soundcards can provide a different tactile experience. Due to reasons I won't elaborate here, I switched my soundcard that feeds my amps I use for tactile from the common onboard Realtek to my SoundBlaster Audigy card. Can I say that the feedback is better? I claim that I'm getting more fidelity but that is very subjective. What I can say, however, is there was a marked increase in volume. I found myself, across the board, having to dial back gain settings in SSW. Before someone theorizes... yes, I made sure that my volume setting was at 100% with the Realtek and there was no signal processing in play.

I used to think that it really didn't matter much what was playing the feedback waveforms since I wasn't concerned with audio fidelity that much (and this is coming from a bit of an audiophile). I mean these are just simple short waveforms feeding a transducer to invoke tactile feedback. But if your setup is such that you can feel subtlety and nuances from your transducers, well... makes sense that you want to be feeding them a quality signal. Or, at least, enough volume of the signal to drive them to their fullest potential. Yes, you can dial up the volume on your amp but if the signal to begin with is lost, your amp can't make it up. Plus, you will start to induce clipping with no gain on the more subtle signals that were lost to begin with.

It was a bit of an eye opener on my part... not to mention a dope slap for not considering it beforehand.

 

[Dennis Johnson]

Hi all,
I am wondering if anyone here has installed 2 Xonar DGX sound cards in their system. Are there any issues with conflicts etc. My onboard is realtek and quality is not good. I need to have 2 cards in my system.
THanks for any feedback

 

[aliolemon]

Hi all,
I am wondering if anyone here has installed 2 Xonar DGX sound cards in their system. Are there any issues with conflicts etc. My onboard is realtek and quality is not good. I need to have 2 cards in my system.
THanks for any feedback

I used to have two USB- Soundcards with the same C-Media chip and it worked but not reliable and afterall i deinstalled one of the USB Soundcards.

Just as a reminder all cheap Soundcards use a C-Media chip.

 

[Ceolmor]

Another discovery from all the testing I've been doing as of late: soundcards make a difference! Meaning, using different soundcards can provide a different tactile experience. Due to reasons I won't elaborate here, I switched my soundcard that feeds my amps I use for tactile from the common onboard Realtek to my SoundBlaster Audigy card. Can I say that the feedback is better? I claim that I'm getting more fidelity but that is very subjective. What I can say, however, is there was a marked increase in volume. I found myself, across the board, having to dial back gain settings in SSW. Before someone theorizes... yes, I made sure that my volume setting was at 100% with the Realtek and there was no signal processing in play.

I used to think that it really didn't matter much what was playing the feedback waveforms since I wasn't concerned with audio fidelity that much (and this is coming from a bit of an audiophile). I mean these are just simple short waveforms feeding a transducer to invoke tactile feedback. But if your setup is such that you can feel subtlety and nuances from your transducers, well... makes sense that you want to be feeding them a quality signal. Or, at least, enough volume of the signal to drive them to their fullest potential. Yes, you can dial up the volume on your amp but if the signal to begin with is lost, your amp can't make it up. Plus, you will start to induce clipping with no gain on the more subtle signals that were lost to begin with.

It was a bit of an eye opener on my part... not to mention a dope slap for not considering it beforehand.

When I swapped from my onboard soundcard to the Asus Xonar DGX, I actually found the volume from the DGX to be lower than from my onboard soundcard.

 

[Spinelli]

I have an Auzentech Forte soundcard. Can I use the Buttkicker with it while also keeping my audio with it or do they need to be seperate and therefore I have to use my motherboard's onboard audio for one of them?

 

[Hiro Abe]

When I swapped from my onboard soundcard to the Asus Xonar DGX, I actually found the volume from the DGX to be lower than from my onboard soundcard.

I'm sure different hardware is going to yield different results. Thankfully, it worked out quite nicely for me.

 

[Hiro Abe]

I have an Auzentech Forte soundcard. Can I use the Buttkicker with it while also keeping my audio with it or do they need to be seperate and therefore I have to use my motherboard's onboard audio for one of them?

You need a separate soundcard. One dedicated to tactile, the other for your regular audio.

 

[Mr Latte]

Some motherboards now come with pretty good onboard sound. With my own build in 2016 I went for a motherboard that had one of the best audio chips as part of my decision which motherboard to get. I ended up with a Gigabyte Gaming 7 model that included high end audio components and creative technology.

It even is possible with this motherboard to buy additional OP-AMPs with their own tonal and performance attributes that can alter the sound drastically even varying the dB from 95-110dB.
A detailed overview and look at specs.

Read some of this link to see the major changes these can make to the audio. Therefore such may also be relevant between different models or makes of cards based on the chips they may incorporate and the quality level used.


Signal - Noise Ratio S/N seems to be one factor but different cards can bring possible variation in performance with different frequencies and not just the maximum output. I can monitor the levels with my audio interface and DAW but I have never seen nor expect to see a soundcard comparison based on Simvibe or other telemetry/tactile based usage and performance.

So for which cards produce the best lowest bass frequencies for the higher end tactile units or midbass quality for the general models. Perhaps its got more relevance to tactile than the average general user for headphone or speaker audio. Yet few have nor will put much thought into this.

Personally, I think most if using SSW should get the card Andre himself uses (Asus DGX) and this way it keeps us all on the same hardware. Yet with different motherboards, we could still have variations. Interconnects, speaker cable, cable length these all are potential attributes for varations, even with the same soundcard and amp used.

However having the same soundcard can be useful when making references to configuring, tuning or balancing with other hardware like amps etc. I have noticed the Asus U5 and Creative Omni USB cards to have differences in output but also that they being USB compared to my good onboard audio have lower outputs. If using an iNuke DSP amp you can balance the input gain with the front knobs and the output gain in the DSP Crossover section. Boths settings are highlighted by the level meter lights on the front of the iNuke DSP amps and for any possible clipping (red light).

One point that may be relevant with SSW tuning is discovering which Sim potentially outputs the strongest sensations and which perhaps the lowest. I can't say as I focus mainly with AC but this is something worth discussing as we want then to be able to use SSW and custom effects but be able to balance possible differences in output between sims (with the same SSW slider values). The easiest way to do this is from the soundcard output rather than someone with 3 amps or more having to alter volumes.

I expect it could be good to have volume of the Highest output title (if there is much variation) at 80-90% to allow us to then increase the SSW soundcard gain level to 100% to cover any potential differences.

If this is relevant please discuss.

 

[Mr Latte]

You're lucky. Those things were out of stock for who knows how long when I was looking at entering tactile. I reckon a year before people we able to order them again.

The Pearl Throne Thumper (for drum stools) is a similar idea but with a better amp than the BK Gamer package. This uses the same unit as the BK Advance model via a clamp mounting solution. It is about 3x more powerful than a BK Gamer in the felt sensation but with much better low bass performance too. You guys need to seek beyond "Gamer" or the "sub $100 models of transducers if you are more serious about performance with tactile.

I amazes me people spend so much on motion, wheelbases, pedals yet they then feel its fine to go cheap with tactile and expect to somehow get the best of what it can bring.


The Pearl Thumper has been available since about 2012, even down under in Australia....
Funny thing is I have seen BK Gamer packages sell for as much on ebay recently than these as most are not aware of them..

 

[anton_Chez]

Tactile is a niche audience for a niche genre. Many people are fine running G27's, T300's and the like for their sim racing fix. To place tactile importance ahead of a direct drive wheel base and/or a high end pedal set is, well, interesting to say the least. You need a proper rig to mount to, decent amps, a tonne of patience, lots of testing and research. Even with all of those things, to achieve an optimal result is almost like chasing a phantom. Multiple high end units and an amp/s to power them, plus software and mounting hardware can easily cost you the same as a small mige OSW. As a sim racer, I can see why the importance is placed in the order that it is.

I consider my tactile a minor finishing touch on the experience. I don't have my OSW to test my tactile setup. That's not to say that I would want to be without it. Simply that I'd rather have HE Pro Pedals with a couple of Mini LFE's than have 4 big LFE units and a grande worth of amps to power them while driving my old G25 with plastic pedals and a pot brake.