Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Mr Latte]

Spectrum Analysers seem to be the current trend.
They require a learning curve, heres some help.


Videos highlight certain things and features as well as usage tips.
Note: these videos are not directly related to using such software with tactile but should be informative and of usage to people seeking to try.

 

[Ormy]

I shorted out my NX4-6000 months ago and it stopped working.

These things are supposed to have short circuit protection. I know I've accidentally shorted an Inuke NU4-6000 before and it kept working.

 

[RCHeliguy]

These things are supposed to have short circuit protection. I know I've accidentally shorted an Inuke NU4-6000 before and it kept working.

I had a wiring issue that shorted across channels. I've now soldered those connections so it will never be an issue again. I heard some serious sparks.

I think their protection circuitry is the reason there was so little damage done.

I went ahead and ordered a BK-CT with the intention of mounting it to my seat. I'll need to increase the gauge of the speaker wire running there, but hope this will do something interesting.

 

[Ormy]

I had a wiring issue that shorted across channels. I've now soldered those connections so it will never be an issue again. I heard some serious sparks.

I think their protection circuitry is the reason there was so little damage done.

I went ahead and ordered a BK-CT with the intention of mounting it to my seat. I'll need to increase the gauge of the speaker wire running there, but hope this will do something interesting.

What gauge of wire are you using?

BK-CT means BK concert right? I'm using 12 gauge on mine.

 

[Mr Latte]

What gauge of wire are you using?

BK-CT means BK concert right? I'm using 12 gauge on mine.

BK recommends 14 and 12 only if used for longer cable runs.
Some audio pros have said to only use 12 if over 25ft.

You have different standards with AWG/Euro/SWG that Buttkickers own recommendations on their website say nothing about. I remember looking at it a few years ago to help understand it more for most tactile transducers.
Here

 

[RCHeliguy]

The LFE is 4 ohms. The Concert is 2 ohms. 2 ohms should be twice as much current for the same wattage. I currently have only 14ga run, but I have spools of 12 and 10 speaker wire.

 

[Atak_Kat]

The LFE is 4 ohms. The Concert is 2 ohms. 2 ohms should be twice as much current for the same wattage. I currently have only 14ga run, but I have spools of 12 and 10 speaker wire.

Does this actually mean anything, when it comes to the power or performance of the BK Concert?
I never really understood this to be honest.

 

[Mr Latte]

Does this actually mean anything, when it comes to the power or performance of the BK Concert?
I never really understood this to be honest.

Few typical household amps will support 2ohm loads.
The Concert being 2ohm needs more wattage to deliver the same type of output to a 4ohm unit as we have double the resistance.

You see this reflected in listed amplifier specs.
Eg: NX3000D = 2 x 1500 Watts into 2 Ohms; 2 x 900 Watts into 4 Ohms

Good luck, if you try to run any of the BK models, near its rated max wattage as it will bring performance/comfort issues.
The unit is much less composed if ran hard and the tactile will not be as detailed if you do.

What happens is the frequencies the unit generates with the most energy (based on its operational character) will be the most prominent or ones you will feel, even more so than other frequencies, so you gain in max punch but loose detail and composure with potential issues in mid-bass boom becoming a problem as well as the dreaded Piston Pang issues if you are doing nothing with EQ or Crossover Filters to control that.

Simhub as a source is not a movie, its not a specific instrument.
With Simhub we have the potential when using various effects to generate much more consistent output of low frequencies.
This can be very low Hz for specific effects layers (5-20Hz) and it will often be other effects using frequencies @25-80Hz range.

Without tuning a BK unit via a crossover curve or EQ the user will determine what gain they apply based on how strong the peak frequencies (from the units operating characteristic) feels good or feels bad. Doing this however does not let the user gain the control of boosting the dB of specific Hz bands which for better performance from effects we can create in Simhub is beneficial. An example is some users are applying +12dB in amplitude (16x energy increase) (12 dB = four times the voltage) of that frequency for below 20Hz range.

It makes a vast difference, so much so it will kick the amps fans to ramp up.

In a scenario of someone trying to get extreme energy output, then its best to use two units or more with controlled volumes than one unit cranked. As this way you maintain composure and the two (or more) units can cover a wider/larger area or just give more balanced output over the object.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Does this actually mean anything, when it comes to the power or performance of the BK Concert?
I never really understood this to be honest.

Let's fix that. There are two simple equations.

V=IR or Voltage = Current * Resistance

W = IV or Watts = Current * Voltage

LFE: Power handling: 400 watts minimum, 1,500 watts max • Impedance: 4 ohms • Frequency response: 5-200 Hz • Fs: 9 Hz • Overall dimensions (H x W x D): 5.37" x 5.60" x 5.00" • Weight: 11 lbs.

Concert: Power handling: 400 watts minimum, 1,500 watts max • Impedance: 2 ohms • Frequency response: 5-200 Hz • Fs: 9 Hz • Overall dimensions (H x W x D): 5.37" x 5.60" x 5.00" • Weight: 11 lbs.

Their specs "appear" nearly identical, but for the same wattage the Concert will pull twice as much current.

Here is where things become different.

Behringer NX4-6000:
4 x 1600 Watts into 2 Ohms,
4 x 800 Watts into 4 Ohms,

Concert Pro: My amplifier can push a Concert all the way, but it can not push an LFE all the way.

Concert Negative: There is typically more energy lost to heat when you run a higher current so it is likely that at identical wattages that the Concert will overheat quicker.

In addition I can only pull about 1800W total out of an plug in my house. So the amount of capacity at maximum output is not for very long.

This does not speak to how they are tuned.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Few typical household amps will support 2ohm loads.
The Concert being 2ohm needs more wattage to deliver the same type of output to a 4ohm unit as we have double the resistance.

FYI, the Concert needs more current, not more wattage.

I have a pair of Martin Logan Electrostatic speakers. At some frequencies the impedance drops as low as 0.8 ohms. I purchased a rather hefty amplifier that can handle this low impedance. Overall the impedance of my speakers is around 4ohm except where it gets very low in a higher frequency band.

 

[Mr Latte]

FYI, the Concert needs more current, not more wattage.

I have a pair of Martin Logan Electrostatic speakers. At some frequencies the impedance drops as low as 0.8 ohms. I purchased a rather hefty amplifier that can handle this low impedance. Overall the impedance of my speakers is around 4ohm except where it gets very low in a higher frequency band.

View attachment 398824

The Behringer amps use a feature called Smartsense which detects the ohm of the unit being used.
So people dont need to worry about it and the guy said he already found it confusing.

The amp is going to deliver more wattage as it needs to for the 2ohm unit. We see that with the figures.
This does not mean that a 2ohm Concert will offer far more performance in its output.
Its common people see wattage numbers and use that as POW WOW factor.


Simhub real-world application for both units:
Its unlikely the user will set the amp dials (3000 series) beyond 2pm position.
Most owners I think are using 12pm-1pm positons.

Sound card used
Units installation and rig materials
Soundcard volume
Amps input level

These are all factors as is if the user is applying additional output gain from the Crossover Filtering or EQ with DSP.
.

 

[Atak_Kat]

Thanks for the education.
Avoiding the topic of specific frequencies and the way each transducer responds to it for a minute...
What part of the rating (V, I, R, W) translates to the strength of the movement? Watts?

If I understood the math of the equations, then:
- a 2 ohm transducer will generate the same watts, but with half the voltage of the 4 ohm?
-or, said different, a 2 ohm transducer is able to make better use of the voltage available, letting more current go to the transducer, and therefore making more watts given the same level of voltage?
-But with more current, comes more heat, as you say.

Is that even close to a layman interpretation?

 

[Mr Latte]

Might help

dB calculator for amplification gain and damping (loss) factor of an audio amplifier calculation decibel dB ratio - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

Calculator damping loss and dB amplification factor gain decibel amplifier audio engineering microphone recordings calculation ratio - sengpielaudio Eberhard Sengpiel

www.sengpielaudio.com

 

[RCHeliguy]

It's obvious that there is still confusion.

Yes the NX4-6000 handles 2 or 4ohms fine. It "can" send more wattage to the concert than the LFE. There is likely more wasted energy as heat because if the higher current which would explain needing more wattage for the same output.

I never suggested that I expect to even come close to max wattage. I certainly hope not, because the transducer would overheat and my amp would be getting pushed very hard.

 

[Ormy]

BK recommends 14 and 12 only if used for longer cable runs.
Some audio pros have said to only use 12 if over 25ft.

Yeah but there's no harm in having a cable thicker than needed. Better too thick than too thin right?

In addition I can only pull about 1800W total out of an plug in my house

My condolences, the pains of a 110V system. Here I can theoretically pull 3000W from each plug

Just joking. I know you can get 220V lines fitted there if you wanted to.

a 2 ohm transducer will generate the same watts, but with half the voltage of the 4 ohm?

The transducer doesn't generate power/watts, it just takes whatever the amp sends it. The lower the impedance of the transducer or speaker, the more power the amp is able to send, but amplifiers have a lower impedance limit. Most home audio/consumer amplifiers can't go below 4 ohms per channel, pro audio units like the behringers can usually go down to 2 ohms.

If you just want a layman understanding I'd say forget about voltage and current for now, it makes things even more confusing. Focus on power output and impedance.

To get the most power out of a transducer you want the impedance as low as the amplifier can manage. Nice and simple. But of course there's also a limit to the power the transducer can handle before overheating.

 

[RCHeliguy]

For the record I'm not trying to argue that a Concert is better or worse than an LFE.

I understood from some people who use the Concerts on their rigs that there is no issue with pistoning even without a DSP and since my amp doesn't have DSP's I'm just trying to keep things simple if I could. That was my primary motivation for going with the a Concert.

My "assumption" is that either will provide plenty of power and be a lot more powerful than the Aura Pro that I currently have on my seat. I believe the Aura was plenty in a previous configuration when I had it mounted to a suspended metal plate that held the bottom of the seat cushion on my old Passat seat.

 

[Allyngr]

May I please ask what is the latest on Dual lock as an appropriate mounting method? I see a few negative comments on it in this feed for exciters.
Have a Concert and was hoping to avoid drilling holes into the bucket seat but if dual lock doesn’t adhere well for exciters then I can see it being worse for a large Concert. Advice welcomed please

 

[EsxPaul]

May I please ask what is the latest on Dual lock as an appropriate mounting method? I see a few negative comments on it in this feed for exciters.
Have a Concert and was hoping to avoid drilling holes into the bucket seat but if dual lock doesn’t adhere well for exciters then I can see it being worse for a large Concert. Advice welcomed please

I wouldn't chance trying to mount something that heavy with any type of adhesive tape and hoping it'll remain in place. Best to hard mount it. The 4 holes you drill will be small and easily hidden if you ever need to in the future.

 

[Stevie_007]

ive just shorted a nx3000 the protect lights are on, does that mean there is no way back or is their a way to fix it

 

[anton_Chez]

OUCH Steve, that sucks. I've no experience with that amp but there are many users with it around here so they will no doubt offer some insight.

I was going to mention the drilling into the bucket seat. Start doing it from the bottom. You'll be able to easily hide these holes with the seat cushions and the fact that you'll never see the underside of the seat anyway. If you like how that feels and want to mount another unit to the back of the seat, at least you'll have confirmed that it's worth it. I took the plunge and moved my Mini LFE from the chassis on a mount to directly under the seat. It's a massive difference. I had to turn the power down by around 50% due to how strong the sensation was. I'm now contemplating moving the pedal deck unit to the rear of the seat. It's not really worth it for me though, I have 6 exciters in addition to the Mini I just mounted there directly on the seat. Might be a little overkill.