Stutter / Framerate drop -help please

[Fi22le]

I'm playing AMS2 beta a lot lately and recently I've noticed an occasional stutter / framerate drop, which seems to happen about once every 10 minutes or so (although I don't think it's that regular).

I think it may have been introduced with a recent Windows 10 update, and I'm after advice about what I should do to investigate further please (I don't think it happened before a recent Windows update (KB4560960 (OS Builds 18362.900 and 18363.900))


So about my system:

Ryzen 3600
3200 / c16 Crucial ram with 'safe' memory tuning using dram calculator
RTX2070 Super with moderate OC (Afterburner auto O/C curve for core and +980mhz memory)
1tb NVME SSD
3x 1080p monitors @ 60hz

I use Afterburner with Rivatuner OSD and I use that to display GPU use, CPU use and FPS. My GPU is running at 80% or lower and the CPU is running at around 20%, when the stutter happens I'm not even sure if the FPS drop (if they do it's very brief). I've tried analyzing the Afterburner data and it seems that sometimes it doesn't even record FPS drops which seems strange. I have noticed that when it happens, some of the CPU cores are close to 100% usage, but the overall CPU use is around 20% pretty much all the time).

Things I have tried to resolve:

-I turned off Windows Game mode (I read somewhere that this might help)
-I added the AMS2 beta folder to Windows security exclusions (as above)
-Closed all background apps

I'm fairly sure it didn't happen prior to the penultimate Windows update (details above).

Any ideas for investigations most welcome....

Thanks,

Fizz

 

[Kek700]

Every thing in my system is different from yours plus my gpu and cpu usage is never anywhere near 100%.
It is the same for me, a stutter after 10 minutes, and then again very randomly.
It has always been part of my simracing from system change to system change. That leads me to think that as simracers we are in a position to be overly sensitive to this. In most other game types it may happen when we are not so intensely involved.

 

[RasmusP]

Sadly don't have the time to write a lot but what might at least help finding more:
Activate frame time both into afterburner history and also for osd.
Then select "graph" as display type.
This way you'll see the frame time graph while driving so you'll instantly see if and how much the fps spike/drop.

Also set the refresh cycle to 100ms. This will cause some cpu load but hey, if the stuttering gets more severe by this, you'll know it's your cpu Performance.

Then select in afterburner: "record history" or something like that so you'll be able to scroll through everything after the session and see what happened exactly when the frame time spikes occurred.

About cpu performance:
Sadly the cpu load doesn't tell much. The problem is that our simracing titles only run on about 1-4 cpu threads so by physics, it can't use more than these.
Mostly its one or maybe two of these threads that hit the single core limit of your cpu.

So the real load per thread is 100% divided by your cpu thread count. For me with 6c/12t cpu it means in theory, a overall cpu load of 8.33% can mean a hidden cpu limit.

All monitoring tools only show an average but in reality all cores load a bit from the cache, calculate that little piece with 100% load and then go idle while the next core calculates the next little piece.
AMD and Intel work a bit differently.
On Intels you'll mostly see perfectly spread load across all cores, while in AMDs you'll mostly see a few cores at high loads and the rest idling a bit more.

 

[RasmusP]

Every thing in my system is different from yours plus my gpu and cpu usage is never anywhere near 100%.
It is the same for me, a stutter after 10 minutes, and then again very randomly.
It has always been part of my simracing from system change to system change. That leads me to think that as simracers we are in a position to be overly sensitive to this. In most other game types it may happen when we are not so intensely involved.

Yeah moving in a static camera position with constant high speed flow makes stutter very visible.
In 3rs person rpg's you don't really care for a hiccup here and there while you're standing still, doing a sword hit etc

 

[Fi22le]

Thanks both for taking the time to reply.

Rasmus, I will try your suggestions, thanks very much for that.

I am very 'frame sensitive', and stuff like this drives me crazy!

 

[RasmusP]

Oh additionally:
You say 3x 1080p @ 60hz.
Are you using vsync (in game, Nvidia driver, fast sync, adaptive vsync) or gsync compatible or something?
Also full screen, borderless, exclusive full screen?

Apart from the game mode there's also the "full screen optimizations" thing when right clicking the ams2 exe in the properties. It's a hybrid exclusive full screen that allows things like the volume changing overlay from windows to be displayed.
Mostly not a problem but maybe disabling that might help a little.

Steam overlay btw? I'd disable it too.
Just to make sure there's nothing interfering with the exclusive full screen anymore.

 

[Fi22le]

Using in game v sync.

I'll have a fiddle With those other settings.

Again, thanks for taking the time to help. Plenty to explore there.

 

[Kek700]

Thanks for that @RasmusP , just removed steam overlay, I will be interested to see if it makes any difference.

 

[RasmusP]

Thanks for that @RasmusP , just removed steam overlay, I will be interested to see if it makes any difference.

It's normally not a problem. But if you do have some issues, disabling everything that might interfere with the running program might help. Riva Tuner overlay, fraps overlay, geforce experience overlay, reshade, sweetFX, steam overlay, fullscreen optimizations, overwolf, tsnotifier..
Long list haha.
However I've never seen any of these causing constantly lower fps (apart from reshade/sweetfx when doing a lot of post processing ofc!).

But little frametime spikes? Might be.. Better shut them all off and enable the ones needed one after another

 

[Case_]

BTW while obviously the overall CPU usage is not what you should be looking at, CPU usage between 20-30% is normal on 3600 at 60 fps in AMS2.

 

[Kek700]

Unfortunately, stutter still with me, b b b b because I run AC at 117fps it is no big deal.
It certainly catches me out, had two in tonight’s 60 min race.

 

[Durge Driven]

My idea much the same as always in this predicament

Install last build on a spare HDD ( cheap 60GB SSD will do ) turn off W10 updates
Put only the absolute bare essentials on OS ............ so no afterburner or anything else
Fire up Steam ( I hope you don't put Steam on C:\ )
Now see if it replicates problem

That should take no more then a hour and prove your suspicions or eliminate W10 update
Always good to have spare HDD for this even a old sata will do

 

[Kek700]

??? What is wrong with steam utilising the C:/ drive.
Not sure exactly what is meant by last build, I can guess but that is all.
Even then still in the dark.
I also think I have suspended W10 updates, unfortunately that does not mean that I have halted things going on in the back ground, again in the dark about that.

 

[RasmusP]

??? What is wrong with steam utilising the C:/ drive.
Not sure exactly what is meant by last build, I can guess but that is all.
Even then still in the dark.
I also think I have suspended W10 updates, unfortunately that does not mean that I have halted things going on in the back ground, again in the dark about that.

The problem with games being on the system drive is that you might have conflicting priorities when accessing data.

With ssds and their parallel access it's barely a problem. With hdd where you actually had a needle jumping around on the disk it was a massive problem sometimes.

Like what's more important: writing something into the page file to not crash the windows or load the next part of the game map?

But it's no solution to split the c drive into 2 partitions as the access is still parallel in such a case.

Which is why my dad told me in 1998:
"my son... I won't play football with you. But I'll give you this advice for life: when building a pc, buy 2 hard drives. One for windows, one for the rest"

 

[Case_]

Why stop at 2 drives, though. Buy all the drives.

 

[GJDriessen]

Oh additionally:
You say 3x 1080p @ 60hz.
Are you using vsync (in game, Nvidia driver, fast sync, adaptive vsync) or gsync compatible or something?
Also full screen, borderless, exclusive full screen?

Apart from the game mode there's also the "full screen optimizations" thing when right clicking the ams2 exe in the properties. It's a hybrid exclusive full screen that allows things like the volume changing overlay from windows to be displayed.
Mostly not a problem but maybe disabling that might help a little.

Steam overlay btw? I'd disable it too.
Just to make sure there's nothing interfering with the exclusive full screen anymore.

Sorry to bump this thread, but I have been experiencing similar issues lately with sudden frame drops. My 2700 super card is doing fine with g synic most of the times I have framerates around 140. But suddenly I get drops to a lower number and there is stuttering for a brief moment. Should I enable vsync ingame or in the control panel or do something else (e.g. increase/decrease pre rendered frames etc)? I have a freesync monitor (Samsung) that works fine with gsync in other games. Thanks for your help!

 

[RasmusP]

Sorry to bump this thread, but I have been experiencing similar issues lately with sudden frame drops. My 2700 super card is doing fine with g synic most of the times I have framerates around 140. But suddenly I get drops to a lower number and there is stuttering for a brief moment. Should I enable vsync ingame or in the control panel or do something else (e.g. increase/decrease pre rendered frames etc)? I have a freesync monitor (Samsung) that works fine with gsync in other games. Thanks for your help!

Hi,
no issue bumping old threads! That's what forums are for, keep things organized and stored for the future!

Can you tell me your exact samsung monitor model? What's your Hz setting for Windows Desktop?

In general I would always "force" vsync in the nvidia driver! When gsync was released multiple years ago, vsync was hardcoded into gsync. But it was requested to be able to disable it, so nvidia did that... But in my opinion it's not a good thing.
It's good that you can change it but it's not great that it isn't activated by default...

Your sudden frame drops though sound more like a CPU spike. Either caused by bad coding of the game or due to something in the background...

GPU related fps drops are mostly kinda smooth. Like decreasing and increasing.
Like this: 140 135 120 100 80 100 120 130 138 140.
CPU related fps drops are mostly very spikey.
Like this: 140 140 140 30 140 140 50 140 140.

If you get a "hiccup" from gsync disabling due to fps going beyond your monitor's hz value and then going back into the gsync-range, forcing vsync might help.

If the game is just badly optimized, in example caching spikes when streaming the next 600m of a track or blending in/out cars that are out of sight, then you should try to limit your fps to a value that can be achieved 99% of the time.

For example in rFactor 2, my fps vary from 60 fps when starting a race with 20 opponents but when the field spreads out, my fps go way beyond 100 fps.
So I limit my fps at 75. Makes the transition a bit smoother overall and I don't get spikes.


Do you limit your fps? If not, your pc is constantly working at the limit! So whenever something doesn't go smoothly, it will cause the fps to go down.
When it's your RTX 2070, it's mostly smooth though.. But did you know a GPU that's at full load causes quite a massive input lag? So not great...

When your CPU becomes the limiting thing though, you'll get bad fps spikes. Hiccups, as I like to call them.


Anyway, I hope that helps.. Gonna need more input from you

 

[GJDriessen]

Hi,
no issue bumping old threads! That's what forums are for, keep things organized and stored for the future!

Can you tell me your exact samsung monitor model? What's your Hz setting for Windows Desktop?

In general I would always "force" vsync in the nvidia driver! When gsync was released multiple years ago, vsync was hardcoded into gsync. But it was requested to be able to disable it, so nvidia did that... But in my opinion it's not a good thing.
It's good that you can change it but it's not great that it isn't activated by default...

Your sudden frame drops though sound more like a CPU spike. Either caused by bad coding of the game or due to something in the background...

GPU related fps drops are mostly kinda smooth. Like decreasing and increasing.
Like this: 140 135 120 100 80 100 120 130 138 140.
CPU related fps drops are mostly very spikey.
Like this: 140 140 140 30 140 140 50 140 140.

If you get a "hiccup" from gsync disabling due to fps going beyond your monitor's hz value and then going back into the gsync-range, forcing vsync might help.

If the game is just badly optimized, in example caching spikes when streaming the next 600m of a track or blending in/out cars that are out of sight, then you should try to limit your fps to a value that can be achieved 99% of the time.

For example in rFactor 2, my fps vary from 60 fps when starting a race with 20 opponents but when the field spreads out, my fps go way beyond 100 fps.
So I limit my fps at 75. Makes the transition a bit smoother overall and I don't get spikes.


Do you limit your fps? If not, your pc is constantly working at the limit! So whenever something doesn't go smoothly, it will cause the fps to go down.
When it's your RTX 2070, it's mostly smooth though.. But did you know a GPU that's at full load causes quite a massive input lag? So not great...

When your CPU becomes the limiting thing though, you'll get bad fps spikes. Hiccups, as I like to call them.


Anyway, I hope that helps.. Gonna need more input from you

thank you mate! Excellent explanations. Limiting FPS seems to have fixed or at least reduced issues in AMS2. I suspect the Madness engine may also be at fault as other games do not seem to have this problem.

 

[Fi22le]

thank you mate! Excellent explanations. Limiting FPS seems to have fixed or at least reduced issues in AMS2. I suspect the Madness engine may also be at fault as other games do not seem to have this problem.

How did you limit your fps? NVCP?