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So close. Almost there. But still not there (Yet?)

Discussion in 'TT Isle of Man - The Game' started by DucFreak, Mar 31, 2018.

  1. DucFreak

    DucFreak

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    Overall, I'm liking TT-IOM a lot, there's extremely good potential here, but there are some fundamental problems if it's supposed to be a simulation.

    I just spent a whole day around TT-IOM. On and off, up and down, changing and testing things, over and over. It's very addictive, very challenging. Also very frustrating, in the way that it makes me feel like it got so close, yet completely missed the mark on important things.


    First, there is no bike setup adjustment (at least, none that I can find), which is kind of missing a big point in this sort of racing, specifically with these machines.
    The real racebikes featured in this sim/game are production based, sure, but even if IRL some things are limited (individual gear ratios are not allowed to be changed, nor the swing-arm pivot, correct me if I'm wrong), all these motorcycles allow immense adjustments overall.
    But nope... not in the game.

    This sim/game is really missing (and needs) setup adjustment for:
    • Suspension settings (front and rear), not only spring/damping compression and rebound, but also F/R ride height (which also drastically affects weight distribution!).
    • Final transmission ratios (various sprocket ratios, longer and shorter final transmission, to better adjust for different tracks/sections)
    • Braking strength adjustment. Like IRL, some prefer the brakes to be abrupt/sensitive, others like them very smooth/progressive (achievable through different pads, discs and master-cilinders).
    • Engine mapping. Even if not adjustable "on the go" (from the bike, on track, as these actually have in most cases now), at least make different power/torque curves available as choice for the rider, in the setup (a reality for many years now).
    • Different tyre brands and compounds (Michelin, Dunlop, Pirelli, Bridgestone, Conti, Metz, etc), again, like IRL. Not only adding to realism, it would also create small variations on grip/behaviour, and differentiate things positively, as bike variety per class is limited.
      As side note, not sure if tyre pressures are a necessity here, but could also be good to have.

    Second, not sure if things are to be drastically changed physics-wise in future patches (hopefully will), but there are some really weird things going on:

    - The rear brake does not really work as intended. This is nothing like in reality, at all.
    Although it can help balancing your braking, and is of very limited braking-power capabilities (like in real life), it has this problem in that, if you press the rear brake, it's also as if you pressed the clutch (?????).
    (note, if in doubt, try accelerating, then lean back and give a quick "on/off" press on the rear brake = almost a pop-up wheelie!)
    Which also reminds me... there is no clutch command/button.... Why not?

    - The engine braking seems way exaggerated, especially so for these racebikes.
    All these motorcycles (note, even at standard road trim) include a slipper-clutch (also known as a back-torque limiter), which is a specialised clutch made exactly to mitigate the effects of engine braking when riders decelerate.
    In the game, if trying to decelerate from, say, 14.500 rpms on one of the SuperSport bikes, issues often arise. Worse even when downshifting to lower gears. But it's quite OK below, say, 10.000 rpms.
    IMHO, it should naturally allow for downshifting from the highest revs (like IRL), and it doesn't - it wrongly locks, then spins(!) the rear like a car.

    If it's a matter of creating an artificial difficulty, then please introduce optional damage, such as in the engine (on the gearing make gears "break", create engine wear by introducing engine temps, etc). I'm absolutely all for this. Then one can be (rightfully) punished for abusing high-revs and insane downshifting. But not like this, please.

    All in all, I'm in love with the concept, the overall feeling, the tracks, the graphics, even the sounds, the sense of speed, the game modes (career mode is a must and yes it's there, etc, etc), but I'm unsure if TT-IOM will become one of these cult-game cases, for which there's a general allure that has to do with the challenging nature of the presented difficulty, and not so much with the absolute realism (which it hasn't, yet).
    GPL had this issue on its inception, but at least people could create and share individual car setups to circumvent the unnatural (unrealistic) difficulty seen with the cars driving/behaviour.
    With TT-IOM, unfortunately, you can not do this (change/adjust bike setups) and it should have been made possible.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
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  2. Andy_J

    Andy_J
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    This is Kylotonn. They can't do proper physics. They can't do proper replays. It is what it is. We won't get any better I'm afraid.
     
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  3. Paul McCluskey

    Paul McCluskey

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    1st n last of there games I buy, got burnt too often by milestones crap they produced
     
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  4. girlracerTracey

    girlracerTracey

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    I think Andy is largely most probably correct in what he is saying. This is 2018 not 1999. And also we are on two wheels and not four. We are talking about a niche minority interest m/c racing game here. It's a tad frustrating but there it is..

    I too would love to see a greater depth to the physics on this one. Suspension, more advanced tyre modelling, a more defined gyroscopic effect, bike adjustment and set-up parameters etc. and so forth..

    But, sadly, I do not think we will be getting that much more. There's no money in it (from the developer's perspective) to deliver a gpl experience on two wheels. As much as I would love it to be the case with this and every other m/c racing game we are being given in the modern era. It's a quick fix formula on two wheels these days. Unless you go gpbikes which is a very slow "fix" and has been in development for a decade (give or take a bit).

    I find it interesting tbh that those who are complaining about the rear end behaviour in TT IOM do not voice some concerns over the rear end behaviour of the bikes in motogp by Milestone. Different sort of misbehaviour but we've had concerns over the rear end in motogp on and off for years.. I am thinking here of the exaggerated effect of the rear end coming round on corner entry in motogp15, VR the Game and to a lesser extent (because the physics have been further toned down by invisible aids) in motogp17. To the point that when we league raced on motogp15 and VR the game some players left because of this and many that were left moaned.. So Milestone themselves cannot really be held up (arguably at least) as a good example of how to do motorcycle racing physics. By contrast our friendly modders Giovane and Dyego perhaps can be however as they have patiently worked to put right what Milestone messed up in the first place.. ;)

    So what do I think of IOM TT? For what it is I am still loving it tbh and dropping my laptimes slowly but surely whilst riding it as best I can and enjoyably within the envelope of the present physics model. What Kylotonn do with it next will be quite interesting.. But I am not expecting a far reaching overhaul. If they shocked the world and went "sim" I would be happy though.. :O_o:
     
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  5. Andy_J

    Andy_J
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    This. ^^^^^
    Even with the physics as they are I still think many people here find this game too hard for them and quickly go back to mundane four wheels. This sim takes patience and practice to get right. The feeling in cockpit view when you crest a rise in the road and the front end comes up is second to none. Trying to control a 1000cc superbike with manual gears on the TT circuit is a real challenge and I am loving it.
    I can do clean laps now no problem, now I need to up my pace. It only takes practice.:thumbsup:
     
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  6. Andy_J

    Andy_J
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    This game is not by Milestone. And their bike games are vastly different. Bike games are difficult to master and I understand that people give up too easily and go back to what they are comfortable with. This is by far the best 20 quid I ever spent on a full game. Much better value than expensive Car sim DLC.
     
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  7. Alex72

    Alex72

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    Here is my issues after about 2 1/2 hours of testing it. It has a good base game when it comes to the actual driving. The driving is fun - but it lacks some simple things that keep me from buying it, and it should be easy for the devs to add it, and i think its things that no one would be against since they are common things.

    1. Helmet cam has only 1 view(!) when moving the stick forward, mid, back (lean forward, sit normally and lean back on the bike) nothing happens to the view. Losing a lot of immersion AND they didnt make so that when you lean forward during max speed you should gain a little more top speed (like in real life) and show it by having the camera move a little bit closer automatically as you gain those few extra km/h to add that immersion of going fast as hell. Same with leaning back, not only do you not see if you lean back visually but it also does not slow you down a little. Braking and leaning back at speeds should at have you brake a little faster than leaning forward/mid thanks to the drag of your body. Seems very simple to add these in a patch and would make it so much funnier to drive.

    2. Reverb zones missing on this glorious track! Wth? You can see the amazing track but your ears tells you you are going in one single type of landscape all around the track, and not through trees, buildings and rocks surrounding you sometimes and open plains other times. They use FMOD for audio and it supports reverb zones, and all other motorsport games use reverb zones - of course. Im thinking it was publishers that annoyed them so they couldnt finish in time? Otherwise it was a lazy move because its no difference audio wise going through these dense forests and open plains. It just takes your mind away from it and it feels like a much simpler game. Shouldnt stay like this on the beautiful track they built. Looks great but sounds the same all the way. Audio makes up A LOT of the immersion in racing games.

    3. Audio again, there is lacking sounds like suspension/tire/bike "DU-DUHK" when landing from a jump or a small dip. No real sound to immerse you from anything but the engine. These things actually bug me because it screams at you that you are playing a game instead of putting you in it making it feel like a big heavy powerful bike you control. Should be simple to add in a patch because i think i ccould hear something sometimes but i was just some "pock" sound.


    I didnt number this one: TT Isle of Man does not have wobbling. I dont care much through since its probably hard to implement in a good way, but i was a bit stunned it wasnt there seeing how ambitious the title is regarding that huge track. Instead if you lean back at speeds while turning you will just fall off the bike. At least there is a "penalty" that way, but you cant see that you lean back, and you have no chance to correct it compared to during a wobble. This is one of those reasons some people think its "hard" as ive seen people say "i just fall off?!". Just dont lean back at speeds and you are good (and dont lean forward while braking lol). Of course you cant SEE that you aren't leaning back when in helmet view since there is just one locked view...
    Another thing that i do think they could add rather easily is forest areas without sun is not a little more slippery. This is something all TT guys know and talk about. Would also be so easy to add and to tell the player in the tutorial at start to always take it a little easier in there in the dark parts of the track, and having to ride smoother at higher speeds, and not jerky/twitchy cause then you would skid and fall. Oh well. Hopefully they both expand this game and fix these other rather simple things.

    I found 3 bugs personally but since i know nothing of the developers yet i have no idea if they communicated any future patches/fixes.
    1. Ghost bike is sometimes without a bike.
    2. Career mode (the little i tested of it) if you leave between events that have more races than 1 and you done 1 race already, but leave for main menu to continue later then it can crash every time you try to go back into it, and you have to restart the whole career.
    3. Sound bug. I noticed several times that when racing against AI (more engine sounds than yours) that your bike can get buggy engine sound where it sounds like 2 different engine sounds in 2 different tones at the same time. Crash the bike or restart to make it go away.

    I feel that i would play this an hour at a time if i bought it instead of doing 5 hour stints to learn that amazing track. They have made a really good base game and it IS fun to drive, but these simple things missing above just makes it a "dryer" experience and i lose interest faster. The career mode is bare bones (and i dont care personally) which means im into the actual driving experience and thus being able to move my head closer to the windscreen and back when i push/pull the L-stick is needed + that it comes with more speed at high speeds when leaning foward, like in reality, and to help me slow down faster when leaning back and braking, like in reality. That adds another dimension to the driving and it really wouldnt be hard to implement. Camera moving is already there but its manual on the R-stick (wich you have no time to use lol). So they have code for moving the camera around already. Just link it to the L-stick in 3 different view angles while in helmet cam. Seems very easy to do. And add a few more km/h speed when leaning forward, and brake the speed with a few km/h when leaning back. Simples that will give more realism and more layers to the driving experience. Add the reverb zones to the track so we get louder volume from the bike plus more "echo" (reverb) when going through forests and villages with houses on all sides, and rocky areas covering one or both sides. Its a function already built into the audio code after all. Please for the love of everything that is holy, i hope they do these things. Seems straight forward and this will be so much funnier to everyone. Wall of text, but thats why i found the game good and fun for the actual driving. Just wish they added those few extra things so the driving experience will be top notch instead of good, and this will be a great TT game for the driving experience alone. They shouldn't leave it as it is now.
     
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  8. Damage Inc

    Damage Inc

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    weird I have never experienced issues with the rear in MGP 15 or VR46, other than it's too planted (especially with the 500s!).
     
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  9. girlracerTracey

    girlracerTracey

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    It was a handling trait (read "fault") that afflicted the rear end of only the main motogp class in both of these games. To be fair It was more prevalent in motogp15 than in VRTG as we complained loud and clear about this to the development team at Milestone. For VRTG they had by their own admission tried to improve the rear..but it still came round on the limit.

    In 2015 I organised and raced in the xbla motogp, moto2 & 500cc online championships. In 2016 I organised the Italian championships and we raced full seasons in the motogp, "classic" motogp, moto2, 500cc and 250cc classes. The 500s, the 250s, moto2 and the classic motogp bikes were not problematic at all in this respect. It was a big problem for everyone in the main motogp championships however..particularly from memory at Brno, Silverstone and Valencia. It was particularly bad on the entry to high speed off-camber bends. Turn 11 at Brno was particularly hazardous from memory. It caught out the fastest online players in the world including Pistol 73 who won the motogp class championship in 2015..we had to adopt a different technique to get into that bend on the "limit" which involved going up the "inside" and braking hard to scrub off speed rather than a more gradual sweeping arc to the apex which risked disaster.

    So yeah Milestone are far from faultless when it comes to their physics modelling. :whistling:
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
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  10. Andy_J

    Andy_J
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    I take it you have purchased it through Steam and then got a refund Alex? You didn't give it enough time.
    Oh and you ride a bike, not drive it. That is unless you ride a car and drive a bike. :whistling::D
     
  11. Alex72

    Alex72

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    No mate. They had it on in the game shop on my street. :) I know you ride it. English isnt my first language. ;) Do you think what i wrote are bad things though? I am really fair here and i know that what i write is the simplest things to add because the code is already there, but it would give so much more immersion and realism. I will actually buy it anyway to support them, but i hope they patch the game and enhance it instead of leaving it like this because it really deserve it.
     
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  12. Alex72

    Alex72

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    MotoGP 08 was the last one i really enjoyed. Granted i never tested many after that. Just a few, but there was something with 08 that made it fun and it felt more "raw" while the newer ones felt more tame and lame. Possibly i missed one year that was really good, but im hoping MotoGP 18 will be the one.
     
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  13. girlracerTracey

    girlracerTracey

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    I missed out on racing on motogp08 as I was living in an ancient house on the edge of a forest in France. No decent or reliable internet connection..even the electricity supply got interrupted in high winds and storms.. lol.

    It wasn't until 2012 when I came to live in England that I discovered online racing and high speed internet connections and found out what a "ping" was..

    So I am a French girl enjoying the modern technologies in a strange land.. ;)

    I did take motogp 08 for a spin though and enjoyed it. I was playing full time on gp500 at the time though and falling off a lot on the mini IOM TT course. ;)
     
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  14. pk500

    pk500

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    Man, you guys are kind. The last good MotoGP games I played were MotoGP and MotoGP 2 by Climax on the original Xbox in 2002 and 2003. I remember many blissful nights playing MotoGP as an Xbox Live beta tester. :)
     
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  15. Damage Inc

    Damage Inc

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    Ah....yup I think I know what you mean, is it turn 3 at Valencia, the back end does some weird stuff there. Brno T11 is that the right hander after the long downhill back straight? If so then yeah I get that too! I just thought it was me being crap!
     
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  16. Alex72

    Alex72

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    Haha. :D They also released A LOT of mods for MotoGP 08. Maybe it was the same with other MotoGP's, but this one i remember they enhanced a lot in all areas for years afterwards. The main game unmodded felt really good though. Later ones i tested just felt more technologically advanced, but that raw, powerful feeling of was lost in some later games. The sounds were also tamer, weaker, and the driving felt more technical than "one with the bike" riding. Maybe i didnt test them enough but i remember the sound was also much weaker so it felt like driving some mopeds, lol.

    On TT IOM i just remembered i didnt see any split times when doing IOM track. If i recall it was just a timer at the top. Would have been great with red/green split times to know if you do better or worse. Also if i remember correctly when i went really tight in corners and having bushes whipping me in the face there was no sound from branches/leaves hitting my helmet. This is already in FMOD in the way that they just have to get some bush hitting sounds and define the areas, and voila its in. Its so sad when you know there are a few things that can be improved fairly easy and it would be an incredible riding experience. And of course with OP's ideas of implementing some way of setting up the bikes and tweaking the braking etc would make it even better. Man, this can become such an experience with a little extra work. I hope they do it. :)
     
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  17. gtsuit

    gtsuit

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    Amazing course. Great bikes.

    The handling is so bad I don't want to play it until it's repaired. I've yet to see a real bike that stays upright when it pivots 90 degrees across the road at 180 mph for no reason at all.

    I hope modders get their hands on this. I keep coming back to it and quitting in disgust a few minutes later.
     
  18. Andy_J

    Andy_J
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    I understand some of you will find it difficult but after some practice it is fine. I can do clean laps all the time now and it only took a week. But this game takes skill and some of you just don't have it.:whistling:
     
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  19. Andy_J

    Andy_J
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    My version has split times at certain points. But in real life the rider would only know from pit boards once per lap or some mate or family member with a chalkboard at certain points on the track. There is no radio coms in this sport mate. This is real road racing.:rolleyes:
     
  20. Kenny Paton

    Kenny Paton
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