SimFeedback-AC DIY Motion Simulator 10Khz Research

Hey all,

I'm really keen to build one of the SFX-100 rigs, but I've heard (been in the presence of) my brothers and the 10khz servo/driver noise really does my head in, so much so that I would not be able to put up with it. 5-10m of it, and I'm done. This is a darn shame :)

So, I'm going to see if I can get rid of it. Either electronically (preferred) or with accoustic treatment(s).

In this thread I'm simply going to document my journey. At this point I am unsure if it'll come to anything. Maybe I won't succeed. Maybe I'll get half way. Who knows.

The story begins with Neil buying himself a single driver and servo, a 3d printer, and saying to himself "hmm. what next" :)

My full notes are here, but I can't promise you'll understand them: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1J4AUnKNYtFRujTR9BFBB_lJudZRP_02BOt6lfAIN45I/edit?usp=sharing

Look below, I'm going to try to post a more understandable version of my journey!
 
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why not just get done noise cancelling headphones since you have a headset on anyway and then problem solved?

For me, the answer has a few points:
  1. Just because when hearing headphones the 10khz tone is drowned out by other noise (to my ears), doens't mean it's gone. So yeh; others in the room are still affected.
  2. I sometimes like to drive with a screen just to be free of the HMD.
  3. Like Mascot when I take breaks; the noise is really bad.
  4. I like things to be 'right' :) this isn't 'right'!
 
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Problem discussing this issue in public is that things get mixed and matched.

We do know the source of this sound (switching control loop freq.)

  • This is not related to any EMV/EMI, maybe the rigidity of the cable will have impact.
    I did a test setup with some high quality ÖLFLEX® cables, no difference in sound.
  • A ground loop or a potential difference of several volts (N -> PE) can have an impact but it is not very common, at least not here in Germany.
  • Main voltage should have no impact (110/220) both need to be switched.
You asked for an on alternative servo driver:

https://granitedevices.com/digital-servo-drive-argon/

The company is well known for the SimuCube. The early OSW drives did use this driver.

From the tech sheet:
"Position control, update frequency 2.5 kHz ", should be perfect.

Price: ~400 € / Controller

But you need to find out how to configure the servo motor and nobody has tested it before with SimFeedback.
 
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Running the controller part of the servo slower doesn't make it have less noise. The controller part of the AASD-15A runs at 200kHz ( max attainable pulse rate). What creates the noise is the Sinusoidal driver that relies on the mains frequency to charge the 3phase capacitors pumps from a single phase. If the reference voltage (equipment ground) or Neutral are not referenced exactly at phase zero crossing, you get the "whining noise" effect... all this because of the 1phase to 3phase conversion.

I verified that with syntron servo drive that costs 3 times more than AASD15A... both make whining noise on my shi..y 220v mains at my home with bad ground installation. Both are NOT produced any noise at my lab that is hosted at commercial building with commercial type electrical installation...

In short, it doesn't matter how much expensive the servo drive or the motor, feed it garbage electricity and it will complain...
 
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If the reference voltage (equipment ground) or Neutral are not referenced exactly at phase zero crossing, you get the "whining noise" effect... all this because of the 1phase to 3phase conversion.

@Tronicgr_6DOF:
Is it possible do you think to improve the grounding/power at the house (assuming a capable electrician)? I don't know if it's "just" a matter of running a dedicated power line from the board, or more involved. Possible you think? Or is commercial so far different (unsure how it might be apart from far larger and higher load connectors, but then Im no expert) that its not worth considering?
 
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I have recommend these drivers because they are known to be quiet (OSW).
The control loop is easy to drive 2.5kHz and
the pwm current loop frequency is 15-20kHz.

The best main power installation will not help you to get rid of the current loop freq. switching noise.

Good luck!
 
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@saxxon66: were I to go the route of the Argon, do you have spec/info for what is being output from the Arduino, so that I can determine if the Argon can be programmed to accept it?

It might also help to know if there were any parameters specifically set in the AASD in order to make it work with the inputs being given (i.e: control method ... step & direction? absolute?). I'm happy to buy an Argon to test; but I'd like to gather some confidence that I'll be able to configure the Argon to respond to the output of the Arduino.

I will of course contact Granite Devices directly to check that the motor itself is compatible with their driver beforehand...
 
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There is a small %age of users (approx 1-2% without a formal survey) who find the whine very uncomfortable under motion.
Also, I really don't know why you quote this 'approx 1-2% of users without a formal survey' when there is no basis whatsoever to quote mythical numbers in the absence of hard data. 'A small percentage' suffices and keeps things appropriately vague. I suspect the number is actually much higher based on PMs I've received on the subject, but that's just my opinion based on my own experience. It's not a criticism of the SFX system, it's just an unavoidable side effect of the cost-effective components to keep the project affordable for many.
I guess it depends on the way you look at it.
1. Can hear it
2. Can hear it when gaming
3. Cant bear it when gaming
I think most people can hear it and possibly only 1-2% cant hear it. But how many cant actually bear it? To be honest, I think I have only ever heard of you Mascot who cant bear it at all. I can certainly hear it, but put my headphones on and its gone, so not really an issue for me.
Would I like it to gone all together? Yes of course I would, but its not as much as a deal breaker for me and many others as it is (unfortunately) for you.
 
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I guess it depends on the way you look at it.
1. Can hear it
2. Can hear it when gaming
3. Cant bear it when gaming
I think most people can hear it and possibly only 1-2% cant hear it. But how many cant actually bear it? To be honest, I think I have only ever heard of you Mascot who cant bear it at all. I can certainly hear it, but put my headphones on and its gone, so not really an issue for me.
Would I like it to gone all together? Yes of course I would, but its not as much as a deal breaker for me and many others as it is (unfortunately) for you.

I don't disagree with most of what you say, but am puzzled that you think it might only me - @scornflake said he finds it unbearable in his very first statement above, enough to create this very thread about it. There were also others on the Discord (eg Shannon) before discussion was halted, and people have said similar in the main SFX thread here on RD. I'm very happy for those lucky people who can't hear the noise (and for those who hear it but say they can ignore it), but it's a very real issue for some of us and that's why we are trying to find a solution. Having the problem belittled by those who don't suffer from it (and don't understand how bad it can be) has been one of the big frustrations. "Why are the council building a wheelchair ramp outside the library? I don't know what all the fuss is about, I can walk up those steps perfectly fine".

Most people seem to hear the noise and it seems most of those would prefer it wasn't there, so where is the problem in trying to eradicate it? People spend a lot of time and effort trying to get rid of coil whine from graphics cards. This is similar, but louder and worse. And for those people who say it annoys them but it's drowned out by the engine noise when they start driving... don't those people spend any times in the menus where backgound noise in minimal?
 
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I don't disagree with most of what you say, but am puzzled that you think it might only me - @scornflake said he finds it unbearable in his very first statement above, enough to create this very thread about it. There were also others on the Discord (eg Shannon) before discussion was halted, and people have said similar in the main SFX thread here on RD. I'm very happy for those lucky people who can't hear the noise (and for those who hear it but say they can ignore it), but it's a very real issue for some of us and that's why we are trying to find a solution. Having the problem belittled by those who don't suffer from it (and don't understand how bad it can be) has been one of the big frustrations. "Why are the council building a wheelchair ramp outside the library? I don't know what all the fuss is about, I can walk up those steps perfectly fine".

Most people seem to hear the noise and it seems most of those would prefer it wasn't there, so where is the problem in trying to eradicate it? People spend a lot of time and effort trying to get rid of coil whine from graphics cards. This is similar, but louder and worse. And for those people who say it annoys them but it's drowned out by the engine noise when they start driving... don't those people spend any times in the menus where backgound noise in minimal?
I certainly didn’t mean to belittle it.
If there was a way I could get rid of it all together I would be all over it, even though it doesn’t bother ‘me’ that much, and am grateful for those trying to make it less so.
I just meant (and said) you were the only one I could put forward if someone asked me who was bothered by it. Possibly because I read your posts or you are more vocal or you are the only one I have noticed (like some crazy stalker).
I feel for those it affects and wish it wasn’t as bad for them as it wasn’t for me.
maybe I have rubbish hearing or just hit lucky on the motor lottery.
 
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Some interesting reading...



 
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I certainly didn’t mean to belittle it.
Apologies, I didn't mean to infer that you had - your explanation made it clear that you weren't. That comment was directed at the (thankfully few) people who, if they aren't directly suffering something themselves, seem unable to imagine that other people are. Hence my library wheelchair ramp analogy. I've seen comments on forums like "it's not bad, just ignore it" as if we're attention-seeking drama queens blowing things out of proportion. Like all these types of things, you need to experience them for yourself to fully understand the issue.
 
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As OP of this thread, I'd like to try to keep the discussion focused on methods for mitigating/solving the problem, rather than debating if it exists.

I appreciate people hear this particular tone differently, and I mean no offense in trying to steer the discussion back towards practical matters. I have great respect for those that have done all the hard work & research to get us to this point, and just want to hopefully collate a place where there can be focused on discussion on what's been tested, tried, failed, worked etc.

Update
=========

From my side: I've some shielded/screened cable coming. I don't actually think the cable itself is acting as a "speaker"; emitting a 10khz vibration that I can hear, but screened cable might not be a bad idea in the computer room in any case. I'll do the same series of tests and show results here.

After that I'll begin measuring the noise around the driver in the same way I did for the motor. If the damping (poly fibre) works as well as it has with the motor then I would *expect* to be able to kill all noise simply by covering the driver. I know this isn't a long term solution at all (no airflow) but it'll be interesting to see if it has the intended effect.

Items on my list to test/do:
  • Reading more re power (thanks @Tronicgr_6DOF!)
  • Trying the screened cable.
  • Measuring the driver, getting a baseline. I want to know how much noise I'm dealing with so that when I try other solutions I can meaasure their effect.
  • If none of the above get us anywhere: Buying a single Argon to try out. Especially if we can organize this as part of their eval program. My brother lives in switzerland and has a full rig, so this might be an easier option that I originally thought. I did some reading last night and from what I can tell the motor is setup as pulse+direction, limited to 3000rpm.
 
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If it is the possibility that it is the single phase that does it then what about a single to three phase converter and putting that in another area so you don't hear it, depending what kind of converter is used.

It would be interesting if someone with three phase that can easily hook it up and see what happens could do that.
 
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I also experience the noise - so much so that I've stopped using the rig altogether, it's simply too painful.

This is a good news story by the way - keep reading.

Based on my reading of various articles about absorbing / blocking sound I have built heavy wooden boxes using 18mm thick beech, lined with a Basotect foam material. These wrap both the motor and the driver units. The basic principle appears to be to provide a way for the sound wave energy to be absorbed (open pore foam) in combination with a high density (reflective?) exterior shell. The idea isn't mine, I borrowed it from ideas I've seen in articles that describe how to wrap heavy machinery and heat pumps - the latter often uses a multiple shell technique with baffles.

I will be the first to admit that I am not following a strictly scientific approach here. I am not taking each material or combination in isolation; nor do I have a "clean room" (anechoic chamber) within which to measure the differences in sound absorption / reflection - heck; the only tools I've got to measure the sound are my ears and the Spectroid app on my Android phone.

The latest version of the driver unit box is a double shell design that uses 70mm thick Basotect acoustic panels along with the 18mm beech panels. Air flow is achieved by a large CPU fan pulling air through the entire unit via a series of 3 baffles (also padded with Basotect) at each end. The box isn't yet finished; I'll report more in the coming days on it's effectiveness.

Scornflake's recent discovery that Polyester fibre dampens the noise was a motivator.

Yesterday I decided to try the fibre idea. I took each of the wooden boxes I had made for the motors and ripped out the Basotect material, doubled up the cheap polyester blankets I'd purchased earlier that day and jammed them into the enclosure.
IMG_20191128_075244.jpg IMG_20191128_075257.jpg IMG_20191128_075318.jpg
Each time I dropped one of the enclosures onto the motor while the rig was running (but stationary); there was an audible drop in the piercing level of sound within the room.

It's AINT pretty, in fact it's downright ghetto at this stage. But guess what: I almost have silence. Almost - the piercing sound is still there and of course I'm listening out for it, but the difference is no less than stunning.

The noise is without a doubt coming from both the motors AND the drivers in my case.

You will see in my pictures that the double walled box isn't yet finished; in fact right now the upper cover is just placed on there by hand and there isn't a front cover at all.

Power to my sim, CPU, drivers, the whole lot - is driven from a single wall socket. An electrician may well use a palm-to-forehead movement to properly express their dismay at the number of extension leads I'm using.

I'll attach some photos of the boxes in the spirit of sharing, I'm more than happy to receive any suggestions for improvements.
IMG_20191128_081350_resized.jpg

My current goal:
- from a whine/noise perspective - to go from "some" to "none" using absorption/blocking techniques

My next questions / steps (none of these have a basis in measured facts, e.g. it's more things to try):

Q: how can I quantify the improvements properly from this point forward? (aside from the obvious, stop being lazy and start measuring this you fool!)
A: try to roughly gauge how much noise is coming from the drivers vs motors (it's definately from both)
A: try using the Spectroid app at a constant distance from the source being measured and start writing some of this down properly to document the effect of each stage.

Q: does having more fibre layers increase the dampening effect?
A: increase the number of polyester fibre layers on each of the motors.

Q: what role does wood thickness / density play here?
A: increase/decrease the thickness of the wooden boxes and/or try the same number of layers with either a PLA wrap or different types of wood.

Q: is any noise leaking out the bottom of the motor mounts?
A: fully encapsulate the motors using wooden caps (try to reduce noise gaps at the base of the motor)

--
John C

PS: I'm Scornflakes brother, living in Switzerland.
 
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I have recommend these drivers because they are known to be quiet (OSW).
The control loop is easy to drive 2.5kHz and
the pwm current loop frequency is 15-20kHz.

The best main power installation will not help you to get rid of the current loop freq. switching noise.

Good luck!


Ok, just noticed the OSW uses DC power supply 48v... its not pure AC....
 
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@saxxon66: were I to go the route of the Argon, do you have spec/info for what is being output from the Arduino, so that I can determine if the Argon can be programmed to accept it?

It might also help to know if there were any parameters specifically set in the AASD in order to make it work with the inputs being given (i.e: control method ... step & direction? absolute?). I'm happy to buy an Argon to test; but I'd like to gather some confidence that I'll be able to configure the Argon to respond to the output of the Arduino.

I will of course contact Granite Devices directly to check that the motor itself is compatible with their driver beforehand...

There is nothing special about the controller output, it is a common PWM signal 0-5v for step and 0 or 5v for direction and one enable signal 5v. The min/max PWM freq. is controlled by SimFeedback.

What can be critical is the timing for the step and dir sync and the voltage of the enable signal.

If you want to try out the Argon, get in contact with company’s product architect Mika Takala, he is in charge of the OSW/SimuCube products and knows the SimFeedback project.



Ok, just noticed the OSW uses DC power supply 48v... its not pure AC....

It depends, one of the first OSW was based on the Argon, Supply voltage 85- 264 VAC / 45 – 380 VDC.
All later versions need an external DC power supply and are using different drivers.
 
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I currently have an Argon osw setup. It runs on 110v ac. It's silent. I also have 4 aasd20 drives on the same rig. It has run on 120v and 220v ac. Same noise, pretty loud. My rig is currently setup at work which is a large industrial space with ample power options. I measured the voltage difference on the ground leg and found none. I have an oscope, I could measure the charcteristics of the power. I also have 3 phase 220v so I could see if that helps.
 
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I currently have an Argon osw setup. It runs on 110v ac. It's silent. I also have 4 aasd20 drives on the same rig. It has run on 120v and 220v ac. Same noise, pretty loud. My rig is currently setup at work which is a large industrial space with ample power options. I measured the voltage difference on the ground leg and found none. I have an oscope, I could measure the charcteristics of the power. I also have 3 phase 220v so I could see if that helps.

so the argon ... is that on single phase?

I'd be very interested to see if the sound emitted from the AASD's is less/different if connected directly to 3 phase power. Even for a single unit. Any chance of that being possible to test?
 
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so the argon ... is that on single phase?

I'd be very interested to see if the sound emitted from the AASD's is less/different if connected directly to 3 phase power. Even for a single unit. Any chance of that being possible to test?


Yep argon is single phase 120v on my rig but the voltage range it accepts is wide. It's an awesome driver for sure. Just costs more. But the price has dropped a lot since I bought mine years ago. 399 euros right now. The only other downside is setup will be just a bit more involved as you have to type in parameters for motors instead of pick them from a list, and make sure the tune is healthy. It needs dc power for the estop loop, and the initial power on needs to be unloaded so it can find its phases. No problem on a wheel but that would suck on actuators. I wonder if there is a way to overcome that need.

I will test the 3 phase connection later this coming week and report back. I'm curious as well.
 
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