Sim Racing: The Big Mid Season Review - Part 1

[P*Funk]

you want the free benefit of immersion

Its not immersion to want access to the wider online community. The way DLC works now with AC the value of my existing content is diminished because I'm limited in my ability to use it online such as in a GT3 server where there will be people driving cars I don't own that oblige me to buy several dream packs which contain content I don't care to buy for myself.

then only a few people have to buy dlcs and the rest don't

And? You're just saying what I'm saying but like its a negative. If I can race against someone in a car I never intend to drive how is that stealing or whatever? Its better for the community because we're not divided online.

This translates in business collapse

The sky is falling! Oh no! Why are you using this fear mongering type of arugment? You have no evidence that the difference between Kunos surviving or failing is if I'm forced to buy DLC I don't care about in order to keep racing with the online community using what I have bought.

Your attitude is baffling. Business will fail? Collapse? End of days? What kind of business model involves people buying things they don't want in order to scrape by?

What I'm seeing here is a selfish point of view where the only one to benefit is you as a freeloader while other people pay for dlc and devs pay to produce these new cars.

Wow, I'm selfish for not wanting to buy stuff I don't intend to use in order to not be fractured from an online community that I paid to access by buying the full price game. I'm a freeloader because I don't keep dumping money down the throat of a company even if I already dropped more than $60.

Freeloader? You are a fundamentalist.

Do you actually read what you write or not? I've never been called a freeloader for not pirating a game.

 

[JeffL]

@Radu Oros, just curious do you work for Kunos? This conversation turned to an analysis of sim racing a while ago and yet you keep going back to defending AC. I'm starting to wonder.

 

[Radu Oros]

Your existing content is not diminished with the way DLC works in AC, because your existing content is used in online servers without dlc cars in it, which you can join and race with others, and I'm not talking about empty servers. And you can create a server with the content you want and a league as well just with your existing content.

And what if people want to mostly race in dlc tracks, you'd be excluded no matter if there was ability to race against dlc cars. How would you deal with that scenario? Because we know is a possible reality atm.

@Radu Oros, just curious do you work for Kunos? This conversation turned to an analysis of sim racing a while ago and yet you keep going back to defending AC. I'm starting to wonder.

No it didn't turn into an analysis of sim racing, it simply turned into questioning why you can't race against dlc cars without buying the dlcs. Because you aren't forced to buy dlc cars to race online. You just have to join servers that run content you have too. And there is that diversity online and those servers are populated enough. But you want access to servers where people bought dlcs to race with and against different cars you didn't buy because you can't or because you have no interest in those cars. So just join servers that has your content.

 

[JeffL]

, it simply turned into questioning why you can't race against dlc cars without buying the dlcs

No, that's the line you are sticking to, because you feel that's the financial leg AC can survive on. I've argued several other points, but you only see "Red" (that's a pun).
I always try to have a legitimate debate, but alas somebody always ends up defending a certain entity rather than the system. Over and out

 

[Will Mazeo]

A free to play game is a great example of how the "free" players help to make others buy more of your stuff as they keep the servers more populated. For offline (which are majority of sim racers, no doubt) this wouldn't change anything, but for online would be a huge boost and Kunos would likely profit more because the guys racing without a DLC would sooner or later get excited enough to buy the packs be it to drive one of the cars they see others using or because of a track they'd need to keep racing. It's a win win.
To make it clear (some people really need this to be clear...) I'm not saying simracing has to be free, just change the way DLC works.

 

[Radu Oros]

A free to play game is a great example of how the "free" players help to make others buy more of your stuff as they keep the servers more populated. For offline (which are majority of sim racers, no doubt) this wouldn't change anything, but for online would be a huge boost and Kunos would likely profit more because the guys racing without a DLC would sooner or later get excited enough to buy the packs be it to drive one of the cars they see others using or because of a track they'd need to keep racing. It's a win win.
To make it clear (some people really need this to be clear...) I'm not saying simracing has to be free, just change the way DLC works.

Was the multiplayer more populated before dlcs in the game? Then everyone could join every server as everyone only had the base game content. But it doesn't seem that online is weaker now with all the dlcs.

 

[Will Mazeo]

Was the multiplayer more populated before dlcs in the game? Then everyone could join every server as everyone only had the base game content. But it doesn't seem that online is weaker now with all the dlcs.

Your fanaticism is stopping you from seeing many things man. You really should stop that... (except if you own Kunos, then yeah, keep it up, great work. I mean... great work on defending it )

 

[Radu Oros]

To make it clear (some people really need this to be clear...) I'm not saying simracing has to be free, just change the way DLC works.

Change the way DLC works for the benefit of the small group that doesn't want to buy dlc and wants to race online? This smaller online group already races in servers with the non-dlc content they only want to have.

Your fanaticism is stopping you from seeing many things man. You really should stop that... (except if you own Kunos, then yeah, keep it up, great work. I mean... great work on defending it )

I see the whole picture, in past posts I talked about it. I am aware that dlc fractures the online community, but people do what they want. If they don't want to buy dlcs, they don't. They race with what they have. But you want to access freely a paid product you don't want just to not be left out. If you don't want "to be left out", then do everything in your power to be part of it. Or join servers with other people that use the same content as you.

I am not entirely defending Kunos here, I am defending my part which bought the dlc and want to race with mp4-12c gt3 (default) against 650s gt3 (dlc) in a server. But you want to do this freely, you want to race for free against content Kunos paid money to make (and in this part I am defending Kunos point) and against content I paid money to have (my point). How do you not get this? It isn't fair neither for Kunos nor for people who bought the dlcs, so that you whom doesn't want this content to not be left out in servers. You don't have to be afraid that people don't want to use default cars, because they are used online.

See this screenshot to prove my point:

Spoiler

6 against 13 servers on the first page that use base game content and have players to race against (and 1 for drifting). And there are more on 2nd page which doesn't require any dlc or only free mods. I used this website to see servers list without entering the game: http://ac.proracing.club/ (make sure you enable the first four filters so that you include full servers but exclude servers with booking).

 

[Will Mazeo]

It's not about change to benefit a small group
You don't even see the full picture ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That's a serious case right there...

 

[JeffL]

Another possibly constructive debate devolves into people with decent ideas ( @Will Mazeo ) giving into the fanatics out of sheer exhaustion. No solutions just tribalism.

 

[Radu Oros]

I see your strategies. Calling me a fanboy, or that I work for Kunos. You don't actually want to debate what I said but you're attacking what I am or what you think I am. You should join Politics, you'd have a career there with those kind of debate tactics.

 

[JeffL]

Because your arguments are Orwellian in nature, speaking out of both sides of your mouth. The reason we are "attacking" you is your tactics, which happens when the debate turns into a fantasy. Then you project that attack back on us for calling you out. See: Trump.

 

[Radu Oros]

It's not about change to benefit a small group
You don't even see the full picture ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That's a serious case right there...

Is the full picture the fact that multiplayer fracturing exists due to servers not allowing users to join with non-dlcs cars on the same server as users with dlc cars where both have the same track?
This seems like a game design and business choice they made. I agree with this way for AC and you don't agree with it. What can we do about it besides talking here? I think nothing at all. Is the way the game is and it works. Those who have different systems and which don't work should change. But they shouldn't force a change on something that works.

 

[Ville-Samuli Mutanen]

I see your strategies. Calling me a fanboy, or that I work for Kunos. You don't actually want to debate what I said but you're attacking what I am or what you think I am. You should join Politics, you'd have a career there with those kind of debate tactics.

It is really not that hard to make assumptions like that and you seem to be the guy who is not capable for sensible debate. I personally have +1100 hours of AC on my belt and it's my main (and pretty much the only one I drive more than a few laps) sim and there are good reasons for that. Regardless of my clear fanatism I still don't try to mould sheit into diamond. You just cannot be blind enough to not see how cruel the system atm. is for newcomers who are trying to enjoy the game. Don't be silly, please.

 

[JeffL]

But they shouldn't force a change on something that works.

See what I mean, nobody is forcing a change (who is they?) and it's at the very least debatable that it's working.

 

[Radu Oros]

See what I mean, nobody is forcing a change (who is they?) and it's at the very least debatable that it's working.

They is the company, the devs. Read the sentence in context with the previous one or the paragraph.
"Those (companies) who have different systems (game/business model) and which don't work should change. But they (company, devs) shouldn't force a change on something (game/business model) that works." Basically just the company itself can know if their current model works for the game's health and their investments.

It is really not that hard to make assumptions like that and you seem to be the guy who is not capable for sensible debate. I personally have +1100 hours of AC on my belt and it's my main (and pretty much the only one I drive more than a few laps) sim and there are good reasons for that. Regardless of my clear fanatism I still don't try to mould sheit into diamond. You just cannot be blind enough to not see how cruel the system atm. is for newcomers who are trying to enjoy the game. Don't be silly, please.

Regardless of your clear fanatism (fanaticism)? You aren't fanatic about AC, at least I haven't seen a good example of it, or at least in the post you just wrote. Playing just one sim because you like it more than others doesn't make you a fanboy much less a fanatic.

Newcomers who are trying to enjoy the game will play offline or jump online and join servers they see they can join. Or did I miss a piece of text where it says for newcomers that they must find 30 very populated servers instead of 5 to enjoy the game?

 

[Hash_V8]

Example: Nord track day one of the most popular servers, and one of the reasons I boot up AC, its unique to AC, so now with the new DLCS, we now have 3 (4 with new DLC) thats 4 identical bloody servers with 10 ppl each on them in my timezone, it does my head in, its one very full server without the split.

Ill say once more QUF, what possible reason or benefit as a consumer/player, would you get from not wanting NON DLC players to race alongside DLC content,all it would mean is fuller servers,would posible disadvantage would you have? your stance is utterly bizarre unless you are a dev or investor, its one thing to just not care, but to advocate for continuing splitting MP, up is just weird.

Regardless of your clear fanatism (fanaticism)?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fanatism

 

[Radu Oros]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fanatism

So Ville-Samuli meant that he has "excessive intolerance of opposing views" (fanatism) or "
Excessive, irrational zeal, especially in politics or religion." (in this case games, fanaticism)?

Example: Nord track day one of the most popular servers, and one of the reasons I boot up AC, its unique to AC, so now with the new DLCS, we now have 3 (4 with new DLC) thats 4 identical bloody servers with 10 ppl each on them in my timezone, it does my head in, its one very full server without the split.

Ill say once more QUF, what possible reason or benefit as a consumer/player, would you get from not wanting NON DLC players to race alongside DLC content,all it would mean is fuller servers,would posible disadvantage would you have? your stance is utterly bizarre unless you are a dev or investor, its one thing to just not care, but to advocate for continuing splitting MP, up is just weird.

And how active is the multiplayer of project cars and raceroom that lets people race against dlc cars without needing to buy it? Can anyone who has pcars and raceroom enter and see how populated the lobbies/servers are?

There are usually 3 or 4 servers for Nords track day in AC, with +- 20 players in each. Maybe a couple might get full 32 players during a peak time. But why are you saying that during your New Zealand time zone you'd get more than 10 people in each if non-dlc (which at least own dp1) players could join these track day servers with dlc cars (who own more than dp1).

Have you actually experimented to see how populated a nords track day server in your time zone can get with just dreampack1 cars + base game cars? Then maybe it could shed a light for when your time zone has 4 nords servers with 10 people in each could get close to full in all servers by not requiring more than dp1 dlc. (This would need for someone to host a nords track day server with just dp1+default cars)

edit. check http://ac.proracing.club/ and write 'tourist' in the track search. Then click on the cars list to see if there are just dp1+default cars.
I checked myself right now and the fullest server with this condition has 22/32 players. The second with this condition has 13/32. The 3rd and 4th with this condition have both 6/32. Then there are two more track day servers with cars from other dlcs.

So seen this, how are people who don't own more than the first dlc affected negatively? You can't blame Kunos that people don't want to fill 2 servers instead of spreading across 4. Maybe some prefer lower populated track days because of FPS performance.

 

[JeffL]

what possible reason or benefit as a consumer/player, would you get from not wanting NON DLC players to race alongside DLC content,

@Radu Oros You didn't answer this question

 

[Radu Oros]

@Radu Oros You didn't answer this question

Because I'm not selfish to want all the benefits for the players and with that the company producing the new content suffer in their investment and people not buying dlcs if they don't need to to access servers with newer content.
I would support this if players would be affected negatively and they couldn't play or even find servers to race online. Which they can, simply take a look at the servers list and you'll find plenty of places and populated enough where people race with default cars and tracks, or at most just DP1.

Now you're gonna say, why should we be forced to buy dlcs I don't want, to race online with cars of the same class I already own at least one or join track day servers with content I already own but there are dlc cars inside?
And then I will say, the game company needs to secure that this is sustainable and people don't pass on the dlcs they make when they can just join servers and race against dlc cars without buying anything.

But I think is selfish to just look at your belly and not think about the other party who is making all this possible. If their business in the game is not successful, then we as players who like this game could lose in further updates and new content.
And I repeat, people who don't buy dlcs are only impacted partially, because there are populated servers to join and race with default cars and tracks.

There needs be a balance on all ends. Players who don't buy dlcs can still race in multiplayer with enough people, those who buy dlcs can race in multiplayer with enough people, and the company producing all this needs to make it sustainable. All these points are met and can be verified in game, although is harder to know about the company and we can only assume from observation.

Let me make a side question. Will Reiza that is gonna sell DLC allow people who won't buy to join servers if there's at least a car in the server from the default game cars?