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Should "Race Pace" give drivers priority? (Nope)

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Calvyn White

Calv Killmore
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Many unnecessary incidents during a race are solely caused by not understanding the meaning of race pace.

What I mean by this is where you qualify is roughly going to be your race pace, usually slower.
For instance, there is no point holding up by a faster driver that is gone off the track and is now trying to get past you; all you're doing is hold him up and cost yourself time. Time for the driver that you are actually in a race against to catch-up.

It is important to understand who you are actually racing against.
I know many of you understand this; I've raced against many of you. And unfortunately, some do not. I put this down to the lack of experience which all of us have been in that position. Understanding your pace will keep you on track which is considerably better for consistency and results. There is no point pushing harder than your capabilities will allow at this stage. There is no point pushing it for one more position at the risk of going off and losing several positions. Bide your time, understand your pace, and get results out of the strategy and patience alone.

Allow the drivers to make their mistakes and take advantage of them when the opportunity arises. Please don't force it; it's not worth trying to overtake a car that is at a faster pace than yourself overall. It's not worth it. These races are only 20 minutes; aggression can be quite high, which forces more unnecessary risks. Despite this, it's still not worth it. With patience, considering and understanding, your pace can get you 4 or more positions by the finish.
This is worth it compared to the impatient lack of understanding of pace, which could easily result in you literally finishing at the back of the grid and the possibility of a fellow driver who does understand the meaning of race pace joining you. :mad: :cry:

I would like to strongly suggest if you don't understand race pace, look it up. It is key to being a successful driver in gaining positions over your qualifying position.

Trust me when I tell you this is more important and you can imagine. Many of us already know this; many of us learned this through experience, but some can learn this now. And reap the benefits of it.

Understanding race pace, you will have more fun with it.;):)

PS:
Regarding discord and crew chief, if I could make them compulsory, I would without question.
For instance, if I'm taken out, I want to hear that apology. I need to hear that apology. Because if I do, I would say don't wait, keep going because I know s*** happens. And, of course, this works both ways. No apology; you're just going to have to abide by the rules, but I personally will overlook it with one apology, that is. I regard this as sportsmanship.
As for crew chief, why on earth would you not use something that would prevent you from f****** up this, I'm sure, and for others, this doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
 
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UMC 22

Premium
For instance, there is no point holding up by a faster driver that is gone off the track and is now trying to get past you; all you're doing is hold him up and cost yourself time. Time for the driver that you are actually in a race against to catch-up.
I'm sorry Calvyn, but I absolutely, positively disagree with every single word you said about "race pace" in your post. Also, it absolutely, positively does not apply in any form to RD club races.

Nobody, and I do mean nobody, has any extra right to track position than anyone else. The guy who qualified in last place is under absolutely no obligation whatsoever to let the guy who qualified on pole overtake them for position. None. They can defend as hard as they like for as long as like.

I don't give a **** if Lewis Hamilton decides to join us. If he's behind me and I'm 10 seconds per lap slower than him, it's HIS JOB to find a way past me safely, cleanly, and fairly. It is not my job to just let him by because his pace is better overall. If I want to defend and slow both himself and myself down, then that is my choice to make and I have every right to do so. The same goes for every single driver that signs up for our events. This is racing, not a bloody procession.

The one and only thing that causes incidents in this particular situation is the "faster" guy with the inflated ego and sod all patience, trying to force a move where one isn't possible because he thinks he has more right to the track than a rookie. They are wrong, plain and simple, because they don't. And if they cause an incident which is reported, they'll be penalised just like anyone else. With their experience they should know better.

The same applies to "slower" drivers trying to overtake "faster" drivers. If they want to give it a try, they can. I don't care what the situation is, whether a mistake was made, whether they're marginally faster in one corner, whether the "faster" guy misses a gear, or whatever else. If the "slower" driver gets a sniff at an overtake, they are perfectly within their rights to go for it as long as it falls within RD rules and normal racing etiquette. End of story.

TLDR: Every single driver that signs up for RD races, whether they are veterans or rookies, "fast" or "slow", has exactly equal rights to track position. Nobody is under any obligation to allow anyone else by, and they are free to defend their position and try and overtake anyone they choose, regardless of pace difference. Any driver who disagrees with this philosophy is free to race elsewhere, because we don't tolerate any kind of elitist crap here on RD. Or at least, not in my events.
 
Nope. Being on voice comms has not been an RD rule for well over a year, so I have no right to penalise those who choose not to use it. All I can do is keep recommending people use it, even if they don't want to actually chat. I know it's not ideal but it is what it is.


I'm sorry Calvyn, but I absolutely, positively disagree with every single word you said about "race pace" in your post. Also, it absolutely, positively does not apply in any form to RD club races.

Nobody, and I do mean nobody, has any extra right to track position than anyone else. The guy who qualified in last place is under absolutely no obligation whatsoever to let the guy who qualified on pole overtake them for position. None. They can defend as hard as they like for as long as like.

I don't give a **** if Lewis Hamilton decides to join us. If he's behind me and I'm 10 seconds per lap slower than him, it's HIS JOB to find a way past me safely, cleanly, and fairly. It is not my job to just let him by because his pace is better overall. If I want to defend and slow both himself and myself down, then that is my choice to make and I have every right to do so. The same goes for every single driver that signs up for our events. This is racing, not a bloody procession.

The one and only thing that causes incidents in this particular situation is the "faster" guy with the inflated ego and sod all patience, trying to force a move where one isn't possible because he thinks he has more right to the track than a rookie. They are wrong, plain and simple, because they don't. And if they cause an incident which is reported, they'll be penalised just like anyone else. With their experience they should know better.

The same applies to "slower" drivers trying to overtake "faster" drivers. If they want to give it a try, they can. I don't care what the situation is, whether a mistake was made, whether they're marginally faster in one corner, whether the "faster" guy misses a gear, or whatever else. If the "slower" driver gets a sniff at an overtake, they are perfectly within their rights to go for it as long as it falls within RD rules and normal racing etiquette. End of story.

TLDR: Every single driver that signs up for RD races, whether they are veterans or rookies, "fast" or "slow", has exactly equal rights to track position. Nobody is under any obligation to allow anyone else by, and they are free to defend their position and try and overtake anyone they choose, regardless of pace difference. Any driver who disagrees with this philosophy is free to race elsewhere, because we don't tolerate any kind of elitist crap here on RD. Or at least, not in my events.

100% i agree
many people have to be more careful MAINLY when they get to the back of the front car .... in real life, also in your real car, also brake on the front car ??? when going after another car, we have to anticipate the brakes without relation to the car in front, because otherwise, if we are going to brake at the same time from the car in front ..
it messes up .. !!! 90% of the accidents here at SimRacing are because they DO NOT know how to brake when they get to the back of another car ... and we should always remember that the driver in front has the right to do whatever he wants ... to brake and guide where and how the driver behind him wants ...
Good races for everyone
 

Calvyn White

Calv Killmore
Premium
I can't entirely agree with everything you say, Ross, as "I" look for the good things being said.

You're only concerned about race department rules; I'm more concerned about safe driving and sensible driving; common sense cuts down unnecessary incidence. I thank you for your loyalty to Race Department policy. It's a shame it has nothing to do with racecraft or what I am talking about. I to do have that loyalty hence my advice on better racing.

You talk about the policy of race department. I'm talking about smart racing. It's a well-known part of racecraft. You just can't put policy and rules into racing just because you can and want to. Racing has its own set of rules; most of it is common sense. You just can't put them in to suit yourself. Understanding race pace is a part of racing, whether you like it or not, and using it to your advantage has nothing to do with race departments policy. Are you trying to tell me that I cannot do it because race department has rules and policies problems with a tactic that interferes with race department policy of making your way up the grid?

Even in real racing, race pace is significantly important. Basically, you're telling me holding up a fast driver behind is ok; sure it is, of course, but is it a sensible thing to do, and you're sure that accidents are prevented like this. They only happen because the faster driver has an ego, not that he's faster and wants to get by, so he's not holding up himself and the other driver. I'm sorry, I find common sense and smart driving more important than race departments' policy of doing what you want just because you can and can, but is it the smart thing to do especially when you've got options. Even in real racing and sim racing, deliberately holding up a faster driver is frowned upon, but it's not against the rules. I have not objected to this in either of my posts regarding this subject.

Racing is racing; of course, you can be awkward and silly about letting the fastest driver by all. I'm saying it is common sense to let the faster driver by so as not losing time. All I've said is just pure advice for better racing. For all, it doesn't have to be followed; it's not a policy or a rule just said for the better of understanding in how to get better results.
I understand race departments policy that you don't have to do this fair enough. But for me, if I know the driver behind, it is overall faster than me. And as I don't want to be slow down because of this, I would let them buy. This is not a policy; this is not a rule; this is common sense.

Why do you feel the need to object or totally disagree with a bit of advice on better racing? I have no idea. I understand race departments policy, which is fair enough, but I don't understand why your objecting to something that's been in racing since it began. Most peculiar.

I may have misunderstood you, but I can safely say you've misunderstood me, which I'm finding very hard to understand how but I do really hope now I've made it clear.:rolleyes:
 
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Calvyn White

Calv Killmore
Premium
100% i agree
many people have to be more careful MAINLY when they get to the back of the front car .... in real life, also in your real car, also brake on the front car ??? when going after another car, we have to anticipate the brakes without relation to the car in front, because otherwise, if we are going to brake at the same time from the car in front.
it messes up .. !!! 90% of the accidents here at SimRacing are because they DO NOT know how to brake when they get to the back of another car ... and we should always remember that the driver in front has the right to do whatever he wants ... to brake and guide where and how the driver behind him wants ...
Good races for everyone
How on earth can you say the front driver has the right to do what he wants? This couldn't be more wrong. They haven't got the right to break check; they haven't got the right to change direction in the braking zone. And I certainly haven't got the right not to accelerate out of a corner and many more just in case you think they do.
 
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Des Pearce

Premium
I can't entirely agree with everything you say, Ross, as "I" look for the good things being said.

You're only concerned about race department rules; I'm more concerned about safe driving and sensible driving; common sense cuts down unnecessary incidence. I thank you for your loyalty to Race Department policy. It's a shame it has nothing to do with racecraft or what I am talking about. I to do have that loyalty hence my advice on better racing.

You talk about the policy of race department. I'm talking about smart racing. It's a well-known part of racecraft. You just can't put policy and rules into racing just because you can and want to. Racing has its own set of rules; most of it is common sense. You just can't put them in to suit yourself. Understanding race pace is a part of racing, whether you like it or not, and using it to your advantage has nothing to do with race departments policy. Are you trying to tell me that I cannot do it because race department has rules and policies problems with a tactic that interferes with race department policy of making your way up the grid?

Even in real racing, race pace is significantly important. Basically, you're telling me holding up a fast driver behind is ok; sure it is, of course, but is it a sensible thing to do, and you're sure that accidents are prevented like this. They only happen because the faster driver has an ego, not that he's faster and wants to get by, so he's not holding up himself and the other driver. I'm sorry, I find common sense and smart driving more important than race departments' policy of doing what you want just because you can and can, but is it the smart thing to do especially when you've got options. Even in real racing end sim racing, deliberately holding up a faster driver is frowned upon, but it's not against the rules. I have not objected to this in either of my posts regarding this subject.

Racing is racing; of course, you can be awkward and silly about letting the fastest driver by all. I'm saying it is common sense to let the faster driver by so as not losing time. All I've said is just pure advice for better racing. For all, it doesn't have to be followed; it's not a policy or a rule just said for the better of understanding in how to get better results.
I understand race departments policy that you don't have to do this fair enough. But for me, if I know the driver behind, it is overall faster than me. And as I don't want to be slow down because of this, I would let them buy. This is not a policy; this is not a rule; this is common sense.

Why do you feel the need to object or totally disagree with a bit of advice on better racing? I have no idea. I understand race departments policy, which is fair enough, but I don't understand why your objecting to something that's been in racing since it began. Most peculiar.

I may have misunderstood you, but I can safely say you've misunderstood me, which I'm finding very hard to understand how but I do really hope now I've made it clear.:rolleyes:

As one of the slower drivers I'd make the decision about how hard to defend based upon race situation. Early in the race I'd make life a lot easier than with 1 or 2 laps left. It sometimes feels like faster drivers expect you to jump out of their way without considering what's ahead on the track. A little more thought from the faster drivers would help considerably to minimise incidents, it needs to come from both sides.

If I'm approaching a series of corners I'll stick to the best line and pace and then blend out at the next opportunity, sometimes I'll judge that the best place, to cause me least loss, will be at a certain point, sometimes I misjudge.
 

Calvyn White

Calv Killmore
Premium
As one of the slower drivers I'd make the decision about how hard to defend based upon race situation. Early in the race I'd make life a lot easier than with 1 or 2 laps left. It sometimes feels like faster drivers expect you to jump out of their way without considering what's ahead on the track. A little more thought from the faster drivers would help considerably to minimise incidents, it needs to come from both sides.

If I'm approaching a series of corners I'll stick to the best line and pace and then blend out at the next opportunity, sometimes I'll judge that the best place, to cause me least loss, will be at a certain point, sometimes I misjudge.
You are absolutely right. It is totally down to the faster driver behind to be patient and vigilant. It is down to the fastest driver to understand an opportunity and be patient for it.
 
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Des Pearce

Premium
You are absolutely right. It is totally down to the faster driver behind to be patient and vigilant. It is down to the fastest driver to understand an opportunity and be patient for it.

To be fair the vast majority of quicker drivers in this group are very good in terms of overtaking in a reasonable way, there's just the odd one or two who don't. I include yourself in the former Calvyn :thumbsup:
 

Calvyn White

Calv Killmore
Premium
To be fair the vast majority of quicker drivers in this group are very good in terms of overtaking in a reasonable way, there's just the odd one or two who don't. I include yourself in the former Calvyn :thumbsup:
If you're going to accuse me of any wrongdoing, I strongly suggest you PM me with evidence.
 

Calvyn White

Calv Killmore
Premium
.Some of the old lads no of my no contact policy when it comes to overtaking. If I feel that I've made contact unnecessarily and overtake, I will concede that position back again. No matter if I'm faster than the driver in front. And I do this with a smile on my face. I know full well I don't need to do this as as the driver is perfectly fine 9my things fine except for the contact that I have made. This is my personal policy regarding overtaking. Doing anything less to me is just bullying somebody out of the way. And that is unacceptable in my "personal" opinion.
 
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Des Pearce

Premium
Never had an issue Calvyn, sorry if it was badly worded. I saw your no contact policy in action in my rear view mirror at Zhuhai, I think you went off trying to avoid me (as I was trying to avoid the car in front)
 

Des Pearce

Premium
Some of the old lads no of my no contact policy when it comes to overtaking. If I feel that I've made contact unnecessarily and overtake, I will concede that position back again. No matter if I'm faster than the driver in front. And I do this with a smile on my face.

I find smiling difficult at that moment due to the tension in my jaw from concentration. Probably half the reason I'm so slow :D
 

Calvyn White

Calv Killmore
Premium
Allow me to explain about being slow @Des Pearce; a lot of my speed comes from practice roughly 4 or 5 hours for each event, sometimes more. Whilst continually working on my setup. And I've been racing in this club for 3 years and picked up a hell of a lot of tips; it's from the aliens. There's nothing better than taking on board the advice of the experienced. And the biggest words of advice I can give to you are practice and understand what your car is doing and understand how to make it drive the way you like and how the car likes to be driven. There's nothing better than a satisfying feeling of the car doing as it's told, going where you want to go. :)
 

Des Pearce

Premium
Allow me to explain about being slow @Des Pearce; a lot of my speed comes from practice roughly 4 or 5 hours for each event, sometimes more. Whilst continually working on my setup. And I've been racing in this club for 3 years and picked up a hell of a lot of tips; it's from the aliens. There's nothing better than taking on board the advice of the experienced. And the biggest words of advice I can give to you are practice and understand what your car is doing and understand how to make it drive the way you like and how the car likes to be driven. There's nothing better than a satisfying feeling of the car doing as it's told, going where you want to go. :)

At the moment I don't have 4 or 5 hours unfortunately to practice, maybe 90 minutes plus race time. This will change in the future and, hopefully, things will improve.

Setups are in the future at the moment, understanding the car needs to come first which means familiarity, which means practice for me. Things have improved, I'm probably a second a lap closer to the front than a few months ago and my race pace is, generally not far off my qualifying pace (given a clear track). I'm also sticking to RRE as my main sim which I hope will help me adapt to different cars more quickly.
 

UMC 22

Premium
You're only concerned about race department rules...
Don't presume to know my thinking mate, because you clearly don't.

My main concern is not the rules at all, and it never has been. My concern is ensuring that everyone in our club events is treated fairly and equally, with no bias of any kind being given to anyone. My aim is to ensure that veteran drivers do not think they have some kind of extra right over anyone else. My priority is providing a welcoming, inclusive, respectful atmosphere to all participants, whether they be a day one rookie or a twenty year veteran.

Part of doing that means making sure the rules are followed and applied to everyone equally, sure, but that is not where the buck stops. It extends to making sure that our clubs don't become an elite-only domain where anyone else is unwelcome, or treated differently based on their ability. It also means making sure that veterans don't get to tell others how they should be racing, especially when it gives an advantage to the veteran.

Your opinion on this whole "race pace" thing is your own, and in my own view is not "common sense" or the actual mentality applied by real racing drivers. Every racing driver, almost without exception, wants to win. If they can't win, then they want to get the absolute best position they can by any fair means at their disposal. In pretty much any kind of racing you care to mention, you will see "slower" drivers defending against "faster" drivers, trying to prevent them passing. Any driver who doesn't should probably start looking for a new career, because they clearly have the wrong mentality.

The one slight exception to this is endurance racing, where sometimes it is beneficial for one car to allow another past, in order to save fuel or tyres. However, we are not engaged in endurance racing here, or even semi-endurance. We do 20 minute sprints where tyres and fuel are of no concern, and where the only strategy is to reach the finish line as quickly as you possibly can, in front of as many other cars as possible. That means driving as fast as your ability allows, and defending your position as well as you can regardless of who is trying to pass you or how much faster they may be.

At the end of the day, this is just another suggestion by an elite driver who wants slower people to get the hell out of his way. You're trying to plant the seed among our rookies and new members that they are somehow racing "badly" by not letting you sail through without resistance. That is 100% BS quite frankly, and I'm afraid I'm not going to allow that idea to gain any traction whatsoever in our club.

TLDR: It is not against our rules, racing etiquette, or "common sense" for a driver to defend his/her position from someone faster than them, and nobody has any right to suggest they are doing something "wrong" by doing so.

It's called racing, and it's what we're all here to do.
 
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