Serious question ( Crazy system comparison )

[RCHeliguy]

After watching this, I looked at the overall Price, weight, and capabilities.
Then thought about how this is an experiment that was over the weight capacity of the traction loss base and would void the warranty.
Then I thought about the separate systems working independently and overall software support.

Suddenly the beast below seems like a sane solution.
Sure it's 28,000 Euro which is actually less expensive than the system above, but it could hold a loaded up Sim-Lab P1 system with driver and be at half it's weight limit.
It has a much better range of motion.
The power requirements are 220V 12A which is certainly doable compared to most DIY actuator systems.
Not only that it supports every Sim title that anyone cares about with a single integrated interface.

I realize that either of these systems is pie in the sky to the vast majority of us. But in an apples to apples comparison, this actually seems like "The One" if I could have anything and had the room for it.

PS-6TM-550

Motion platform PS-6TM-550 offers 550kg payload, ±130 mm heave, ±17° pitch, ±15° roll, ±17° yaw, -120 +190 mm surge and ±150 mm sway.

motionsystems.eu

This is in the fully lowered position.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Were you referring to their D-Box retrofit program?

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Were you referring to their D-Box retrofit program?

Yeah, seems like they have good deal until the end of 2019, but you probably saw that already.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Yeah, seems like they have good deal until the end of 2019, but you probably saw that already.

I consider my rig finished for now. Motion systems are still coalescing. I don't see a solution yet that I would be happy with and my NLRv3 and transducers are going to hold me until an end game solution arrives.

I just see pieces to the puzzle, and no realistic full solution yet. However I think things are getting more interesting and it will be fun to watch as things continue to develop.

That large overkill hex system from Motion Systems could possibly work if I had a different house with a garage door and fork lift access to a game room with high ceilings, but I don't expect to move for another 5 years, so I'm hoping a more manageable solution evolves. I also doubt my wife would be on board with something like that either.

 

[Wmacky]

I went SFX so my end game has already arrived!

That said, if a DIY surge / traction loss solution were to materialize that could easily be added to the P1, being less cumbersome then Barry's contraption, then I'd be tempted.

 

[RCHeliguy]

To be clear I'm not trying to make this a battle between motion systems. I know my NLRv3 isn't the bees knees, but it also works well enough to hold me. I would be unhappy without motion or tactile. Now I'm just waiting for the mother-load before I upgrade again.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

I consider my rig finished for now.

I thought even your wife laughed at that.

 

[Beef36]

.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I thought even your wife laughed at that.

Yeah, she knows me well.

I'm trying to spend more time actually using my rig instead of working on it. I spent a couple hours using it today.

 

[anton_Chez]

The V3 seat mover is an awesome motion solution especially for people that don't want to get their hands dirty and also don't have endless thousands to throw at their hobby. I loved mine for the time that I had it and and I still consider it to almost be the best addition to the rig to date. Once you weigh up all the pros and cons of it, it really was a fantastic addition to sim racing. Using the SFX-100 system now, it's great, but there are still drawbacks that keep me from fully loving it. I don't think I'd go back to a seat mover at this point but I was never unhappy with it in the slightest. The SFX-100 also needed DIY skills that not all are willing to use / learn, so that's a barrier to entry that nearly kept me from it in the first place.

Overall, I think the single best investment you can make in sim racing is a good quality 80 20 chassis. Everything else can come in bits and pieces later on. But the comfort, flexibility in mounting options, expand ability, reliability and rigidity are pretty much second to none. If you consider how much we upgrade our gear, whether it's VR headsets, pedal kits, rims, screens, etc, the purely smartest investment initially is a good quality cockpit. That;s what I've learned since building one 18 months ago. I'd take a solid chassis like I have now with zero motion over a sub standard motion system ANY DAY.

 

[RCHeliguy]

What I didn't see in that D-Box demonstration was surge. Maybe they have it behind the scenes, but all I could see was their typical 4 post solution with a single pivot traction loss and as always these motion systems are shown with a very light chassis and inexpensive controls. I can't imagine a person spending 8-30 grand on a motion system while still running a thrustmaster steering wheel.

I think NLR took traction loss up a notch with their system that moves the front and the rear of the chassis. It has a lot of performance advantages that a single pivot design can't approach. First it can move you straight sideways, but more importantly as an example if your rear has lost traction, after it has run out of travel in back it can move the front in the opposite direction. It can also handle more complex sliding situation where you have a combination of front and rear traction loss.

 

[RCHeliguy]

The V3 seat mover is an awesome motion solution especially for people that don't want to get their hands dirty and also don't have endless thousands to throw at their hobby.

Using the SFX-100 system now, it's great, but there are still drawbacks that keep me from fully loving it.

The issue for me isn't cost, it's mobility. I enjoy building things, but I can't go much larger than what I have and the NLRv3 is an extremely compact form factor. Your other comment about the SFX-100 is the nail in the coffin and a key reason I'm not pursuing trying to find a way to come up with a mobile solution. I see some great stuff that people are developing, but to my eyes it is not soup yet. I've seen some pretty cool rigs, some that are drool worthy. I think Barry's experiment is the closest I've seen to something that has all the key areas covered, but it was an experiment and it is still too large. I still have not seen ANYTHING yet that I consider viable for my needs.

But first and foremost I agree with you that a solid chassis is an absolute requirement or everything is for nothing. You will have to pry my Sim-Lab P1 chassis from my cold dead fingers and if a motion system can move that, that it is a non-starter.

 

[Mr Latte]

 

[RCHeliguy]

I know a person who has built a 6 DOF system and another person is copying his design. So it will be interesting to see how they hold up. This has been iterated on. After the TL wheels failed he had custom angled wheels made.
It has an actuator for the seat belt tension that works well now, but had iteration to get it there.

This is what it looks like so far and I think it may be one of the more advanced designs I've seen.

Lots of actuators. 4 posts & traction loss & surge & a seat belt tensioner.

I see a LOT of different things being tried, and I'm reading the results on them. Many work great for a little while and then have issues and getting the software dialed in can be interesting.

The 4 post motion solutions are "starting" to get polished, but I don't think they have reached parity with D-Box. The surge and traction loss systems are all over the place. I don't think anyone has a polished traction loss system like NLR.

I applaud the efforts of the people experimenting to build rigs like this, and I think we will find that some designs will work well and gain a following over time, but right now I just see them as experiments trying to do something another company has already accomplished, but for less money. The end results still look like experiments.

 

[fdeandrade]

The point I was making was that the JCL system on top of the Traction Loss system that was not designed to handle that much weight was an experiment, not a long term solution.

That's why I mentioned the 6 DOF Motion Systems rig which can support plenty of weight while having better range of motion and a single integrated motion software package to drive it that has supports almost any titles that we care about.

It's slightly less expensive, but much more powerful and made to handle this kind of load easily.

BTW I'm not suggesting that it is something feasible for most people either in terms of price or having a large area that you can drive a fork lift into. This thing requires head room and a ladder and it is obviously not something that is home friendly.

My guess is that anyone considering something like that would use part of a garage or large shop with drive in access and a solid 220V circuit. ( For the record I have no room in my current home to support anything like this even if I were ready to order one right now )

That is why I developed a much lighter, stronger assembly than the P1X + JCL combo. Our chassis is roughly 40lbs lighter and the surge platform is another 55lbs lighter.
All brackets are 6061-T6