Season 9 Track Discussion

Kennett Ylitalo · Jun 13, 2012

Hungaroring 2011: That one thing i've been complaining about, one small line of code that's wrong.. One value...
GDB :Max Vehicles = 20
AIW: startinggrid=104 pitspots=52
So there's 20 spots allowed when there are effing 104 grid slots and all of those have pitboxes defined correctly... Once again the track is pushed to release with a nagging ONE line of code wrong and no reply from author for an update.

I'm seriously asking now: Why won't we use my fixes? Yes, it causes mismatches with guests, i can rename the track so they will see unknown in the list.As a modder i can promise you that this won't cause bad blood with modding community. The problem there is that most of us can fix them but author can not be reached. Actually, the thing is backwards: no body cares if you fix them and DON'T actively share them, claiming credit. Most authors will be thrilled to find that someone fixed their work and thus, give them a better reputation.. Actually, if we do PrestoGP track pack with all the tracks fixed, that pack WILL get downloads if it's properly advertised. There's hundreds of drivers, tens of leagues affected by this issue, all begging for an update that will never come. But that is not my question..

What is more important? Accurate representation of a track or a chance of getting 1 or two new members?

This really a serious question and i want ALL to give their opinion.

Bonus question: Should we start a new thread just for tracks and keep this one for schedule discussion?

Nicolai Nicholson · Jun 13, 2012

Most important reason is that we try to keep everything as simple as possible. It is not only so we can get one or two new members, it is also so that the league can run by itself without a lot of stuff that needs to be done all the time. If we had not followed this golden rule I do not think we would have excisted today.

Personally, after doing 8 seasons on tracks availeble for all I have never been bothered that the tracks are not accurate, as a matter of fact I have not been aware of it. If a track has a bug such as not allowing people to pit or not having enough grid slots for the league members is a different story obviously, but those tracks we avoid

So I am not disallowing your suggestion Kennett but rather asking the question, is it important? If one of the Hungaroring tracks does not have enough grid slots, then we just can pick the other one, can we not?

I'll make a thread for this as you suggested Kennett, and ofcourse everybody can give their opinion.

EDIT: If it is 100% certain that it is no problem, considering rights and owners etc., to make our own versions and skin pack then it is new information to me and I am willing to consider/discuss the matter. Personally I still think it is a strength to have the tracks we use easily and publicly availeble for download, but I will listen to the majority as I am not confident that my opinion in this matter is the best.

Kennett Ylitalo · Jun 13, 2012

Something that came to my mind.. The old Hungaroring has a major flaw: if you take the first turn legally but tighter than usual, you get a cut warning.. But that's not a problem since we have no rules

...

Peter Marshall · Jun 14, 2012

Kennett Ylitalo said:
What is more important? Accurate representation of a track or a chance of getting 1 or two new members?

I think the chance of getting one or two more Marko's, Kennett's, Jonas, etc is more important.

BUT, if we can fix [say] Melbourne for next season than I think we should go for it!!!

Andy Paries · Jun 14, 2012

I think its cool that we have a modder in the league like Kennett who know's all about this stuff.

For me its all good as long as it doesn't get to complicated ( 'cause im a dumbass with all this computer stuff

)
And about getting new members, that's not so easy because i think this mod isn't very popular, these cars are just to hard to learn to drive for most.
But thats just why we love these monster cars, if its to easy there's no fun in it ey.

Kennett Ylitalo · Jun 17, 2012

I'll bring this list here as this is the track discussion thread:

Nicolai Nicholson said:
Paul Ricard - http://www.nogripracing.com/details.php?filenr=15419
Watkins Glen - http://www.nogripracing.com/details.php?filenr=14138
Imola - Ingame
Magny Cours - Ingame
A1 Ring - http://www.nogripracing.com/details.php?filenr=7303
Estoril - Ingame
Dijon - http://www.nogripracing.com/details.php?filenr=10543
Cicada - http://cream.galleria.fi/BTB/Projects/Cicada/Cicada_1.0.9.6_by_CreamTeam.zip

All track in this list are in race condition. Other tracks that where on the table:
Osterreichring: nope, there's two places where F1 will simply transmorph itself into an airplane.
Imola08: Absolutely one the best tracks SimBin has released. Bumby, precise modelling. It ticks all the boxes and is NOT noobed. It's actually a lot harder than Imola '06.
I need to check that it is the 08 version in the RaceRoom2 - the Game package instead of the old one. EDIT: It is. Download links for the package (1,2gb, i recommend torrent download, i'm getting 1mB/s):

http://www.raceroom.net/specials/rrg-download-center/

Direct 1: ftp://ftp.i3d.net/SimBin/RRG_2_Setup.exe
Direct 2: http://downloads.raceroom.net/mirror/RRG_2_Setup.exe
Torrent: http://downloads.raceroom.net/mirror/RRG_2_Setup.exe.torrent
Mirror 1: http://www.gtr-online.com/modules/GTROnline/download/RRG_2_Setup.exe
Mirror 2: http://www.atomicgamer.com/files/94421/raceroom-the-game-2-free-game

Jim Hawley · Jun 17, 2012

Kennett Ylitalo said:
Osterreichring: nope, there's two places where F1 will simply transmorph itself into an airplane.

We raced it in season 7 Kennett, 17 finishers out of 18 on the grid, only Tim dnf, I think only though the fault of someone else's game freeze

It's just a question of setting the front end up to stay on the track over "that" bump towards the end of the lap, once you've sorted that it's quite a rewarding track to race on

we all had fun

Jim

Nicolai Nicholson · Jun 17, 2012

Kennett, I have been thinking about your suggestion with a track pack.
A posibillity is to practice on the normal official tracks and then on the race server/race day we can (if needed) use a track edited by you.

This way everybody have to download the official track to practice, and there should be no harm done to the auther. Also, anybody will be able to join us on the servers.

However, in such a scenario, I do not think we should edit the track itself (bumps, grip etc.) because that would make people practice offline.

Nicolai Nicholson · Jun 17, 2012

Jim Hawley said:
We raced it in season 7 Kennett, 17 finishers out of 18 on the grid, only Tim dnf, I think only though the fault of someone else's game freeze

From a Race Director view such statistics are very important, because that is the most important parameter he likes to optimise, as few dnf's in total throughout a season tells a lot about the quality of the league

Kennett Ylitalo said:
Imola08: Absolutely one the best tracks SimBin has released. Bumby, precise modelling. It ticks all the boxes and is NOT noobed. It's actually a lot harder than Imola '06.

From a Race Director view I am unsure if this neccesseraly is positive (but at the same time we cannot race boring tracks just because they are safe).

Kennett Ylitalo · Jun 17, 2012

Nicolai Nicholson said:
Kennett, I have been thinking about your suggestion with a track pack.
A posibillity is to practice on the normal official tracks and then on the race server/race day we can (if needed) use a track edited by you.

This way everybody have to download the official track to practice, and there should be no harm done to the auther. Also, anybody will be able to join us on the servers.

However, in such a scenario, I do not think we should edit the track itself (bumps, grip etc.) because that would make people practice offline.

In no case will i be changing the track geometry, that is definitely a no no and should require author permission, it becomes a new version then. (Track geometry = all surfaces that consist a feedback, either collision or driveable ones.. Visuals require a bit of consideration, i wouldn't make my Monaco flag fix a track geometry change, nor would i worry about minor texture fixes when it's a clear case of a human error.) Only the external files will be edited (AIW, GDB and rarely, TRK) and never in a way that would state significant changes.

Spa08 is a good example of what the limitations are: if the rain reflection models wouldn't be included, i wouldn't be fixing that issue (even thou i could), that would be a new version of the track instead of a simple patch. Now that the actual models were included but not activated, nothing required me to alter the original models in any way, no renaming or repositioning. It's a thin line, no written rules. Except straight up stealing, that could theoretically be a legal issue, honor and respect are the basic rules. Don't steal, if you borrow, you need to ask permission first. We are not borrowing but releasing a patch. That is grey area even in big circles (aIW/4D1 vs Activision comes to mind..)

I can release a fix with installer, that way you can quickly activate the fix. So far, there's Hungary 11 and Spa08 that need fixing. I won't be expecting any more, rest of the tracks have been used in leagues without a hitch. NoGrip comment section is a good place to identify possible long race bugs like pitstopping, rest of the tracks receive no complaints.

~~I can also take Imola 08 from the raceroom package so no body else needs to DL the full 1,2gb. RaceRoom 2 tracks are all "addon", ie the familiar GameData/Locations folder structure..EDIT:~~ I had to hack it open and modify files so that's a no go, we'll have to use Old imola. i won't be stepping on SimBins toes here.

EDIT: I will also release the patch in NoGrip and leave a message to the author...

I won't be personally advertising them elsewhere but here, that would mean i wan't to take credit and that's not the case here. I just want working tracks. If i can get a hold of a few keymembers of modding community and get their support, i will write an open letter to all authors of major releases that contains these tiny errors, if they won't see that, maybe their friends will. VLM is the only group that has in the past been impossible to work with, they may take offence but we are not using any of their tracks (their tracks seldom contain errors and they continue to update tracks until they are 100% error free so..) It so sad that authors are extremely tough to get in contact with, specially after a year of two of the release.

Nicolai Nicholson · Jun 18, 2012

Kennett Ylitalo said:
In no case will i be changing the track geometry, that is definitely a no no and should require author permission, it becomes a new version then. (Track geometry = all surfaces that consist a feedback, either collision or driveable ones..

So stuff like removing that big bump people are talking about on Spa08 is a big no-no?

Kennett Ylitalo said:
Visuals require a bit of consideration, i wouldn't make my Monaco flag fix a track geometry change, nor would i worry about minor texture fixes when it's a clear case of a human error.)

I've read this paragraph a few times, but I am not 100% certain of what you mean. Do I understand you correctly that graphic changes such as the flags at Monaco and obvious mistakes from the auther is something you would correct?

Kennett Ylitalo said:
We are not borrowing but releasing a patch. That is grey area even in big circles (aIW/4D1 vs Activision comes to mind..)

I can release a fix with installer, that way you can quickly activate the fix. So far, there's Hungary 11 and Spa08 that need fixing.

Would it be possible to release an alternative version instead of a fix? With a fix we must rely on everybody not executing the fix until race day when they are done using practice servers. With an alternative version it does not matter when members download and "install" the track as long as they do it before the race.

This arguement is done from my perspective, trying to run the league as smooth and troubble free as possible, but not considering your area so much. So if there are "leagal" or technical reasons for using fix instead of alternative track, then my perspective must "give in" for your perspective, if you know what I mean

Kennett Ylitalo · Jun 18, 2012

Spa: no bumb removal. That is something that the author should do or at least give permission to do it.

Visuals i can correct and those obvious mistakes. The thing is, track geometry is a little fuzzy term:, From technical point, all objects that affect racing directly, collision and driveable surfaces (like walls, roads). Everything else is only for show. But some objects are very important even when they are purely visual, wouldn't done anything to Monaco but when it came clear that it's a case of misplaced objects (there were actually six flags that were off by same amount and they had a clear space where they all fitted to..) that changed things. Hungaroring and Spa are the only ones that needs fixing, that does simplify things a lot.

I can do alternate version from those two tracks so no body needs to install anything in the race day. I think that is the best way too.. well,second best.. my solution would be to only use fixed tracks, identical versions in free practice during the week and in race. Spa is really much simpler to learn with racing grooves in them. I'll post a screenshot of what i mean.

Kennett Ylitalo · Jun 18, 2012

Banchimont, with grooves (view fullscreen)

Blanchimont, without grooves.

Without grooves, you can easily drift a meter or two from the racingline. With them you can follow it spot on. With grooves, the bumb is very easy to avoid, lap after lap. Without, i drive over it 1 out of 3 times, if i'm lucky. The grooves are common simulator trick, there's no such things in real tracks (well, there is but not like they appear in game.). But in real life we see instantly with one glance of where everything is, how far they are.. There is also a lot of different kinds of marks on tarmac, patches of dirt, skidmarks etc. that simply cannot be produced in simulators. Making and presenting 6km long textures is a tad too much to ask..yet..rFactor2 has a dynamic track that can be bare in the start of race and those grooves become only after hours of racing, it actually calculates how much and where the track is used the most and darkens that line only.. With marbles forming outside racing line.. Nice, ain't it? .Sorry, off-topic.. Grooves in rF1 and in SimBin titles are there for a reason.

Scott Webber · Jun 19, 2012

Nicolai, personally tracks will have some problems , as you have pointed out the two main reasons not to race on them would be grid slots and any pit issues, other then that the driver has to do with the racing conditions and track.

Messing around with tracks then doing track packs, and "hoping" people update after practice day would cause more of a headache trying to avoid some bugs rather then just simply downloading the track and using that without any editting on it.

Simple is the best way, i know driver's may not like particular tracks but that's with all leagues, they sign up to race so be it imo.... everyone is in the same boat so there shouldn't really be much moaning going on.

you have plenty of experience running this for the past 8 years, i know the guys will trust your judgement on what to do.

i am looking to join a full F1 league like this (and i did mention this a couple of months ago) so fingers crossed this "discussion" is solved

Kennett Ylitalo · Jun 29, 2012

I'll upload the latest version of Cicada, i'll need a quick feedback. Can anyone take a few laps on it, i made new material assignments more inline with rFactor2 specifications (and to get rid of minor rain reflection visual bugs.. ) I just need confirmation that the track didn't lose it's character. The version is a quick build, just reflections are missing (that's one of the last steps in the pipeline)... If the version gets approval, i can finally put it together this weekend to be elligible for voting (no unfinished tracks in the voting list, IMHO..)

I'll post the link once the upload finishes.

Kennett Ylitalo · Jun 29, 2012

Feedback here please: http://www.racedepartment.com/forum/threads/cicada-gp.29603/page-4#post-1185878

Download: http://cream.galleria.fi/BTB/Projects/Cicada/Cicada1098.zip

Kennett Ylitalo · Jul 2, 2012

Ok, here is the release candidate. If no one finds any bugs, this is the final release.

http://cream.galleria.fi/BTB/Projects/Cicada/Cicada_RC1.1_by_CreamTeam.zip

Did long hours this weekend and got it together. Fortunately my team mate ebrich was up late last night and transferred files were small so i got all the necessary stuff done fast... Only changes between this and the final release will be new loading screen, readme and lap record.., i give you guys three days to make a new record

So all RC1.1 downloaders receive a special little package as a reward with the patch = setups....

Current record holds 1:32.024 by me...

Reik Major · Jul 3, 2012

Thank you very much Kennett! I hope to get my hands on it very soon...

Kennett Ylitalo · Jul 4, 2012

I need help with setups. It's a tedious job, nobody pays you anything, all you get is a lousy mention in the credits....I want this track OUT, everything is ready, final stage has gone without a single crash or bug (fingers crossed..) Since i'm as close to perfection as i can with this project, i wan't the last little bit done too.

http://www.racedepartment.com/forum/threads/cicada-gp.29603/page-4#post-1189892