SEASON 9 RACE 8 WATKINS GLEN INCIDENT REPORT

[Dino Paolini]

I am still under the impression that when fighting for position we choose the inside or the outside early and leave room.

When the guy behind is atleast somewhat beside the guy in front and not so clearly behind and also especially not on this very dangerous fast turn (dangerous enough even by yourself), I would agree too. But I have to disagree in this case sorry.

Yes I should have left the room simply because this would have been a safety measure in case the guy behind tries something dangerous. I've lost a ton of places already in my sim-racing adventures by simply leaving room on places just to make sure I won't get hit by someone trying something dangerous or braking very late. That I'm not doing it here was bad timing indeed.

 

[Chirlie Williams]

I never felt contact Tim i just lost grip into corner tryin to push i think

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

Tim:

-I feel the second part of the incident was avoidable. I've looked at it many times and I feel almost certain I would been able to control the car and make a safe re-entry. I think the reason why it's happened is that Tim was thinking too much competition and too little safey after initial contact. (I beg forgiveness if I am mistaken).

As I mentioned in the other thread, I don’t think I could do anything to save the car after the impact with the wall. I certainly did not intend to re enter the track at the point when I re entered the track.

I wrote my part before I read your part. I understand now that you did not intend to rejoin the track. But can I ask what your intentions were (if you can remember). Was it e.g. to...
a) do all in your power to keep the car from entering the track uncontrolled
b) try to control the car's pace and direction off the track to make a safe re-entry as soon as a gap appeared
c) something else

The reason I dig is that I want to know if it was impossible to avoid the track re-entry altogether.

 

[Valter Ostman]

About Tim's part in the big crash - With locked brakes (in my opinion) the car could never have re-entered the track. But if I would have been in that situation I think I could have tried to go back on track as soon as possible. That part of the track is wide, not normally used and pretty secure to re-enter, even in traffic. So re-entering there is okay (if you get away with it). Unfortunately "the balance" wasn't perfect this time.
And then the most important issue - what can we learn from this?

 

[Peter Marshall]

And then the most important issue - what can we learn from this?

That it is "better to be safe than sorry"? Or stick wiith the "who dares wins" approach?
Hmmmm.

 

[Valter Ostman]

That it is "better to be safe than sorry"? Or stick wiith the "who dares wins" approach?
Hmmmm.

I like the "better to be safe than sorry" option more.

 

[Peter Marshall]

I like the "better to be safe than sorry" option more.

Damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead.... J Oops

 

[Reik Major]

I agree with the better be safe aproach. But I'll allways trust each member when saying "I didn't intend to reenter..."

 

[Valter Ostman]

Damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead.... J Oops

I think we must be more than extra careful outside the tarmac because it's not exactly WYSIWYG out there.
I got thrown into the race-line in the beginning of the A1-ring race and hit Bob L. Nothing catastrophic happened according to Bob L's report of the incident, but that was pure luck.
The incident started when Kurt and me touched wheels and I slid off to the left. I tried to go back on neutral throttle. Then a sudden change of direction and the car suddenly turned to the right very fast. I couldn't do anything about it.
The off track driving simulation in our platform isn't always super reliable in my opinion. In that place there are three types of surfaces, grass, grass with some kind of net and curb. I suspect that the joints aren't as smooth as the visual presentation of it suggests.

 

[Valter Ostman]

I agree with the better be safe aproach. But I'll allways trust each member when saying "I didn't intend to reenter..."

It may not be strictly true that he didn't intend to reenter (Joke). I suspect that he intended to rejoin in a controlled and safe way.

 

[Peter Marshall]

I think we must be more than extra careful outside the tarmac because it's not exactly WYSIWYG out there.
I got thrown into the race-line in the beginning of the A1-ring race and hit Bob L. Nothing catastrophic happened according to Bob L's report of the incident, but that was pure luck.
The incident started when Kurt and me touched wheels and I slid off to the left. I tried to go back on neutral throttle. Then a sudden change of direction and the car suddenly turned to the right very fast. I couldn't do anything about it.
The off track driving simulation in our platform isn't always super reliable in my opinion. In that place there are three types of surfaces, grass, grass with some kind of net and curb. I suspect that the joints aren't as smooth as the visual presentation of it suggests.

Yes, I agree entirely Valter. Someone left their scateboard ramp on the left-hand side of the A1 Ring where I found it early on. J Please excuse any of my poor attempts at humour...

P.S. I like Chirlie's new avatar

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

On A1 ring there was four types of materials used on the entire track: grass, kerb, roada (basic road) and lgroad (slippery road, painted green) and all the kerbs had those weird ramps at the end. Kerbs are the easiest to identify since it has special feedback response attached in to it, they rumble.

 

[Chirlie Williams]

Hehe ye Peter i changed my avatar after singapore race as i thought i was starting to take racing abit to serious lol

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

But I'll allways trust each member when saying "I didn't intend to reenter..."

So do I. However, there is a difference between not intending to reenter the track and to work towards avoid reentering the track. I am guessing Tim was aiming at controlling the car at the speed he had along the gras until he could safely reenter. As always we are not out to "arrest" anyone, but to solve, learn and move ahead.

It seems reasonable to assume that if Tim had a 100% focus on keeping the car off the track, there would have been no further casualties, no call for restart etc. This is not to suggest Tim did wrong if his intention was to keep the wheels rolling while waiting for a safe reentry, but this is the matter that should be discussed in my opinion.

 

[Tim McIver]

Sorry I've been slow to respond to Nicos questions.

When ever I find myself on the grass in this game my first reaction is always to give as little steering input as possible and try to keep the car going straight, I want to neither speed up or slow down. That's what I was trying to do in this case for a split second. I've watched the replay a lot more times now and it still happens the way I remember it. I'm on the grass, I try to hold straight, the hill starts to turn me right, I give slight left steer input but once the front has started to go the hill just pushes me back onto the track. My subtle steering movements are effected by my significantly bent suspension.

I concede it didn't occur to me to lock the brakes.

To answer Nicos multiple choice question directly. c) I never regained control enough to think about options a or b.

I would also be pleased to receive some opinions on my incident with Dino. We've both posted our perspectives but seem to have different expectations of when someone should leave room and when someone can turn in on the racing line.

 

[Peter Marshall]

I would also be pleased to receive some opinions on my incident with Dino. We've both posted our perspectives but seem to have different expectations of when someone should leave room and when someone can turn in on the racing line.

After all the years of racing with many of the same drivers [which is very cool and I miss many who no longer run with us ] I still only 'trust' a few drivers to always leave me the room required to do the side-by-side dance through a corner and or sequence. It is what it is... trust. Trust that they have seen me [in their mirrors] and then trust they will both leave room and keep control of their car on only half a track [extra tricky on a wet track].

Some drivers I 'trust' to shut the door always and even then to also cross the driving line to block off the outside lane as well. I choose not to name names here. Suffice to say they are more competitive drivers than I, many from the past, and are [were] great exponents of this technique.

In the case of the incident Tim Vs Dino I believe that Tim should have backed out of the 'fight'. Tim positioned his car in a way that contact was more likely than not and Dino was in the 'danger zone' when it happened. Easy to say in hindsight of course it is "better to be safe than sorry". However, I personally want to finish every race without ruining Vale's or anyone else's paint job. oops J This is perhaps where my own 'expectations' differ from the more competitive driver; after all Tim did declare that he intended to drive faster than Reik this season. A bold statement I could never make...

These post race incident reviews are the place to discuss and make changes for the betterment of the league. I applaud Tim's effort here and in the past [Suzuka?] to raise the topic.

 

[Reik Major]

Tim, thank you for the exact explanations about the first lap trouble. It all makes sence to me.

I would also be pleased to receive some opinions on my incident with Dino.

It's a week ago I watched that incident on my local replay but I remember it looked like you had only a tiny little part of your nose on the inside of Dino, so my first intuitive thought was that you better should have backed out in that situation.

The straight is very long and it's enough time to get to know how far you can make it up the inside until reaching the corner. In this particular situation it seems to turn out early that you won't make it into a decent side-by-side situation and I guess that Dino came to the same conclusion in this moment. So what could you expect from Dino in that situation?

Even though Dino is an excellent driver with a high learning curve, he still remains one of the newest members. So I guess that this corner is a bigger challenge for him due to less experience. On top of that challenge it requires a high amount of experience to do the exact right inputs to take this corner next to the racing line at a decent speed without bringing yourself into danger. Considering this, I would have backed out and followed him very close to keep the pressure high and force him into an error to get into a good position then. Due to people being and acting different it's always worth asking yourself what to expect from the other one in a particular situation. That's my approach.

In general I'm very happy that we gently give us more room than real F1 drivers do (I don't like to see how real F1 drivers sometimes push the driver on the outside off the track). But I wouldn't mind extending it to a degree when it's just necessary to show up with the nose next to the rear wheel to claim that part of the track then. In my eyes a move should still be prepared well enough to create a predictable situation especially for the attacked driver.

Tim, I hope that doesn't sound too much like a teacher for you. I know I can tell much but if I can always do it like that myself is another question...

 

[Reik Major]

In general I'm very happy that we gently give us more room than real F1 drivers do (I don't like to see how real F1 drivers sometimes push the driver on the outside off the track). But I wouldn't mind extending it to a degree when it's just necessary to show up with the nose next to the rear wheel to claim that part of the track then. In my eyes a move should still be prepared well enough to create a predictable situation especially for the attacked driver.

Due to my bad english I may have caused a missunderstanding with my above statement. Of course I wanted to say: "But I wouldn't like to extend it to a degree when it's just necessary to show up with the nose next to the rear wheel to claim that part of the track then."

Maybe from the rest I wrote you already suggested how I wanted to express it correct.