SEASON 9 RACE 6 A1 Ring INCIDENT REPORT

[Valter Ostman]

I am sorry to meddle again, but I do not quite agree on your analysis of this incident, especially considering what you wrote in the video. I feel it sets a dangerous presendence. (I am thinking of the contact with Kurt, not Bob)

When I watch your video I think I to would have "gone for" the outside (iow stayed where you were and leave room on your inside), it is 40 seconds into the race and Kurt is not allowed to claim the full width of the racing track unless he is certain that the coast is clear.

In my view I would expect you Valter to maybe leave a bit more room on the inside and Kurt to assume he has someone on his outside, make a tight apex and leave room throughout the corner.

As always, I am only one person, so my opinion can be wrong. I have also not seen what happend from the start until the clip above starts.

I wish he had been sure that I was there in an early stage. If so he would've given me more space. I know Kurt and I know he was sliding out due to going maximum speed for that corner. He wasn't going wide in the exit on purpose, the grip was not good enough on cold rubber, and he ends up going in the racing line. I believe he tried to go tight after noticing my car. And I was the one who made the decision to challenge him there, I came from behind, almost "diving" in on his outside. I don't think I can blame him for using the normal racing line.
He didn't drive in line with our own Presto GP gentleman code because he didn't see my car soon enough. I think in a real life situation he wouldn't be blamed for the touch even if it was seen as a defensive move.

 

[David Turnbull]

incident with tim.

i wasnt going to bother attempting a pass until turn 1 but my closing speed up the hill and then getting side by side i thought i may as well, when i went for the inside you disappeared from all my view, i thought youd backed out and wouldve fell back in behind me for the next corner, i didnt think for a second youd bounced off like that into the gravel, i really thought id left enough room, i didnt expect that youd try go round side by side with me through the whole corner, looking at it from your view i shouldve left more space for you before closing the door, but in my defence i didnt even see you there, hence why after the race i asked where youd gone

sorry tim

EDIT: ive made a video from various angles of my replay showing that my car didnt move from the racing line even when contact happened, i was just totally unsighted of you tim i thought youd backed out so i kept the racing line, seems like the sync problem has ment youve suffered badly and ive not felt a thing.

 

[Reik Major]

I think now it makes sense from both points of view. On the first glance I thought Davids move was just too brave and done in a too dangerous place. But now I believe him that he thought being past close before the corner. Shame on that sync problem.

Btw, I didn't have sync problems with the aussies today. So I was happy to have a nice go on Tim...

 

[David Turnbull]

thats why ive held my hands up reik, i apologised to tim for not leaving room, from his replay it looks like i just dive through but it definatly wasnt like that, so all i can say is damn you sync issue and sorry again tim.

 

[Tim McIver]

Thanks David, apology accepted and appreciated.

I think there's still a couple of things to clarify and learn from this one. Please don't get the wrong idea, David's apology is genuinely and completely accepted but I think it's important for the sake of next time to clarify a few things.

I don't think that the sync issue played any role at all in causing this incident. We call sync issue way too often. That said, I do completely agree with David that it contributed to David not feeling the contact while my car was hit quite hard. But if the game engine perfectly modelled reality David and I still make contact and I still end up in the sand.

The heart of this issue is car positioning and 2 drivers deciding which bit of track was theirs. David has said that he believed he was past me and was thus within his rights to simply maintain the racing line. My issue is that presumption was based on the fact that he lost sight of me and suspected that I had backed out.

From my perspective, as you can see in the video, I was aware that David was closing fast and there was a chance he would dive down the inside. In that circumstance, I need to make a choice about whether I need to leave room on the inside. In this case I decided that even though I couldn't see him there was a good chance he was going to be there, so I lifted, left room on the inside and did whatever I had to do to make the corner while leaving David the inside. It was my presumption (and I still think rightly) that David would think similarly and attempt to make the corner leaving me the outside.

This to me is the standard way of making an overtake in Presto (apart from the simple ones on the straight.) When in any doubt you leave your opponent room and you try to out race them on your bit of track. Now based on what David has written, it sounds like he simply made an error of judgement wasn't quite as far past as he thought and acknowledges that he should have left me the outside. That would make this incident simple, these things happen, we all move on.

Some have told me however that I should have backed out and David has said that he thought I had backed out. In a sense I did back out. I didn't take the racing line. I must admit however, it didn't occur to me to get on the brakes into a unsettled 4th gear corner. I don't think it was a realistic possibility and I certainly don't think It was the right thing to do. Perhaps if David had been ahead of me it would have made sense, but when i was unsighted and still ahead at turn in I think I was perfectly entitled to hold the outside but completely obligated to leave room on the inside.

Happy to other opinions, keen for us to all be on the same page in terms of racing.

I should also mention as Peter reminded me, that my re-entry was unsafe and very disappointing. In my defense I really had no idea quite how enormous that kurb was. I hadn't approached it from that angle in my practice stints!

Sorry for such a long post!

Tim.

 

[Valter Ostman]

Why did you choose the outside line through that combination Tim? Isn't the inside line the default choice for defending your position?

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

The Bob - Peter incident

All written below is only considering the view from my replay. It could be that it looks different from Bob's replay?

From my replay it looks like Bob is going full throttle and is surprised by Peter braking when he does. To avoid rear ending Peter he managed to throw his car to the right in the last second, but due to the sync issue, it becomes a heavy hit.

In my opinion this was an avoidable incident created by Bob, and the sync issue evident in my replay is no surprise, sudden movements in high speeds does that. It should be no surprise that Peter might have to brake early and suddenly with so many cars ahead.

I think most starting from the rear of the grid would opt for a "soft start", where they cruise at the back and wait for opportunities they know will come.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

Then brake a bit soon into t1 Nico took inside, we touched and both spoon, looks my mistake a bit, needed to leave room there after braking soon and not seeing Nico at mirrors. sorry for that.

Incident lap 55, Nicolai vs. Eliezer
Eliezer was slip streaming Anthony and I Eliezer down the s/f straight. Anthony was weaving so Eliezer and I had to do the same to try to stay in the slip stream.

Approaching t1 I thought I was close enough to outbreak Eliezer and make a tight apex. However, Eliezer didn't expect me to be there and was turning in towards apex, and we both lose tracktion and spin.

I think Anthony's weaving indirectly influenced this incident. If he had gone in a straight line on the left of the track Eliezer and I would have done the same. That would have lead to:
-A better slip stream bringing me closer to Eliezer
-A simpler and more predictable pattern which makes it easier to understand where the opponents are at all times.

Obviously there is also a question if I should have resisted from the passing attempt, as I was not right up his tail and I didn't manage to get ahead of Eliezer at any stage before contact.

The incident is close to the end of this video (3:29):

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

Eliezer unfortunately decided to do 180 on the wrong direction after your spins.. I believe Kimmo last season did the same but with even worse consequences. Otherwise i would say it was failry normal incident, Eliezer could've left more room or Nico could've backed off, about 50/50.

Breaking the tow is not nice and doesn't fit to our agreements. There's soo little gain to have since the car behind can always just follow pattern, specially so far back it has zero effect on the situation (unless the following car has to fiddle with pit/brake etc settings and doesn't notice tow breaking... rare...).. You need about half car width to be inline for good tow anyway and the effective width increases the farther those two car are... So 100m back you need to just sort of follow the same line.

 

[Valter Ostman]

The Bob - Peter incident

All written below is only considering the view from my replay. It could be that it looks different from Bob's replay?

From my replay it looks like Bob is going full throttle and is surprised by Peter braking when he does. To avoid rear ending Peter he managed to throw his car to the right in the last second, but due to the sync issue, it becomes a heavy hit.

In my opinion this was an avoidable incident created by Bob, and the sync issue evident in my replay is no surprise, sudden movements in high speeds does that. It should be no surprise that Peter might have to brake early and suddenly with so many cars ahead.

I think most starting from the rear of the grid would opt for a "soft start", where they cruise at the back and wait for opportunities they know will come.

I agree with you about keeping a distance to the car in front for first turn. The congestion when going into first turn is obligatory for us that start far back in every race.

And it also looks like it's something wrong with the track there. After the contact, Peter is on the left on the grass. Suddenly he hits something invisible and flies high in the cosmos. In my replay it seems like two different events. He would have survived the bump in the rear if the grass had been normal.

Too bad we couldn't have that fight that we were on our way to there Peter.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

Otherwise i would say it was failry normal incident, Eliezer could've left more room or Nico could've backed off, about 50/50.

I could not back off, once I went for the move I was comitted, and I managed to keep a relative tight corner. So question is, should Eliezer expected me there; if yes, then he should have left room, if no I should not have made the move.

Further I argued that Anthony's weaving reduced the chance of Eliezer correctly anticipating my whereabouts/making the situation less predictable.

 

[Valter Ostman]

Incident lap 55, Nicolai vs. Eliezer
Eliezer was slip streaming Anthony and I Eliezer down the s/f straight. Anthony was weaving so Eliezer and I had to do the same to try to stay in the slip stream.

Approaching t1 I thought I was close enough to outbreak Eliezer and make a tight apex. However, Eliezer didn't expect me to be there and was turning in towards apex, and we both lose tracktion and spin.

I think Anthony's weaving indirectly influenced this incident. If he had gone in a straight line on the left of the track Eliezer and I would have done the same. That would have lead to:
-A better slip stream bringing me closer to Eliezer
-A simpler and more predictable pattern which makes it easier to understand where the opponents are at all times.

Obviously there is also a question if I should have resisted from the passing attempt, as I was not right up his tail and I didn't manage to get ahead of Eliezer at any stage before contact.

The incident is close to the end of this video (3:29):

Eliezer must have been aware of you in that situation. I think he could have given you more room on the inside. On the other hand you took kind of a chance sticking your nose-cone in there. Honestly - could you have waited with your attack without compromising the enjoyment of good racing?

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

Eliezer must have been aware of you in that situation. I think he could have given you more room on the inside. On the other hand you took kind of a chance sticking your nose-cone in there. Honestly - could you have waited with your attack without compromising the enjoyment of good racing?

needed to leave room there after braking soon and not seeing Nico at mirrors. sorry for that.

It is a bit hard to argue when it is about myself

The way I understand Eliezer it is apparent to him in hindsight that he should have known I was there (as the signs was there), but in the heat of moment he didn't manage to consider it (iow he did not attempt to leave room).

For me my move was boarderline as I could or should have been closer to make a more predictable attempt. But it is the number 1 passing spot on the track, so I feel that in most cases this should have resulted in what I enjoy the most, a nice battle going side by side through the turn.

In other words, I do not wish to say that the move I made should be considered over the line, but I agree it is boarderline. If I had caught up with him and made a move well before braking zone it would have been easier to read. Also, I did not execute perfectly, I braked too late and was on edge of grip level only managing relatively tight apex and no room for escape.

I might not have attempted it if it was earlier in the race, but it was 3 laps left, and it should have resulted in Eliezer and I losing 1 place to Vincenzo if Eliezer had not made the terrible mistake when turning his car the wrong direction (onto the racing line).

Just to underline, i am not unhappy with Eliezer, I had a great race, and the incident was no big problem for me, (I felt more sorry for Vincenzo). All I want is trying to identify the right precedence for future races. If blame was what we were looking for I would have no problem accepting 50% of it.

 

[Peter Marshall]

RE: Nico's incident.
I enjoyed the part of the video with all the passing and re-passing between Nico and Vincenzo.

I would say that the part of Tim's post regarding leaving room [i.e. a lane] for our opponent to race in should reduce incidents in general. Edit: Then it is only 'surprise attacks' that may be 'risky'.

 

[Eliezer Bartik]

Didn’t expect Nico there as I was seeing him bit far and know him as not “takeing risk” person.
But 3 laps to end, braking soon and not seeing Nico at mirrors I should be more caution and leave room there.
Can’t blame Nico Cause probably me and a lot of us would’ve trying attack there on those circumstances.
Nothing much on that incident we could proceed with no harm, but a lot on the next 1 as was bit confused, turned on race line and blocking Vince, that was stupid 1,
We got damage there and that what influence a lot more , A Huge Sorry for that .

 

[Anthony Ishak]

.

Further I argued that Anthony's weaving reduced the chance of Eliezer correctly anticipating my whereabouts/making the situation less predictable.

Breaking the tow has never been my style in any race .

At A1 , In the first part of the race when I was behind Elizer , i saw him leaving the racing lane , moving to the right to reduce the tow then moving back to the left just before the turn, that action got printed in my mind and then at the last part of the race when Elizer came behind me that idea unintentionally triggered to move once back to the racing lane right before the braking zone while i was completely forgotten about what had been discussed at Monza.

Thank you Peter for pointing it out, I remember now the Monza discussion, i do not feel proud of myself doing this, it was accidently done at this race but it will never be done in the future.

My apology

Anthony,.

 

[Reik Major]

Why did you choose the outside line through that combination Tim? Isn't the inside line the default choice for defending your position?

I asume that Tim expected (or was just hoping) that David wouldn't make it in such a close side by side situation until the corner, so it would have been logical, that the car on the inside had to back out due to the worse line.

I'm very torn about the different argumentations about that incident. Both parties seem to be right so I could not tell who's to blame in that special incident.

In general I agree with Tim reminding us of the following presto gp guide line:
"As long as you don't know for sure that you've past your opponent, leave him enough room on the side he's expected to be on."

Considering this, I wonder if David knew in time that he's completely past Tim. I also wonder if there had been enough time for David to react and hold the inside line if he didn't reach that point certainty. And that leads me to the question if it would have been the better choice for David to hold the inside line in the first place just to keep safety high for both parties? It's no blame, just a question.

 

[David Turnbull]

when i first decided id make the move reik i stayed to the right and stayed on the same line, half way through (just before apex) with tim being quite a bit to the left, he disappeared very quickly from all my view, it was like he broke suddenly and disappeared, i thought the best thing for me to do was just hold the same line id started out on instead of suddenly going to the right or left, at this point i thought tim was sufficiently behind to drop back in behind me and pressure me towards the last corner and then t1.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

The way I see it both fail to "optimise their safety". David should have leaved room in the exit and Tim should have tried to back out of the battle as early as possible (realising David had the upper hand and that it would not be safe/worth it trying to go side by side through that particular turn).

 

[Reik Major]

Allright David, I understand.