This thread is for discussing/posting setup, racing line, hot lap video etc. You know what I mean. Please keep every post to the point (at least within reason) to make it less time consuming for those with less time/ a busy life.
SEASON 9 RACE 4 - Preperation thread
- Thread starter Nicolai Nicholson
- Start date
Valerio Vinassa
PrestoGP Veteran
the list is long in this video I reported only 2 or 3 place where pay attention
in last part of video I did an overtake but I do this only off line because nothing happen are virtual cars so I not have fear about hit someone but in race I never do it ( in place so close ) but want say one thing in case of hurt car in front is in correct line but let open the door but if close door he can and there is an incident? for me is incident race but is true that the race is finished for both,may suggest extreme caution in this race?
PS don't laugh about frame rate my PC is at valve and the fan run with hamsters
edit: I see now that in recorder you don't see the value but was about 15/20 eeekkkkk
in last part of video I did an overtake but I do this only off line because nothing happen are virtual cars so I not have fear about hit someone but in race I never do it ( in place so close ) but want say one thing in case of hurt car in front is in correct line but let open the door but if close door he can and there is an incident? for me is incident race but is true that the race is finished for both,may suggest extreme caution in this race?
PS don't laugh about frame rate my PC is at valve and the fan run with hamsters
edit: I see now that in recorder you don't see the value but was about 15/20 eeekkkkk
I have to do a lot of work, took first spin and this is different version i've used before, didn't remember a single corner.
Valter Ostman
PrestoGP Veteran
I like to ask Reik and other expert setup-makers why i lose so much in third sector when I change Reiks setup towards low diff values. I have done this to get a pointy car in Singapore without increasing the front wing. Something in that settings makes it hard to go through the last set of combinations. Maybe it's just my bad driving technique. I use 8/44 wing.
I'm going thru more troubles.. I could get to 1:37, minus two seconds from that and it should be about a mishap free lap... 1:35 will not cut it, let's see if i can drop that two seconds more, otherwise it's the first race i have to skip due to too slow laptime.
I used wings 10/50, will go even higher if necessary. I don't care about straightline speeds, 7th gear is rarely seen. Power lock 15 was too much for me too but it could be that i need to decrease pump lock in relation more than usually, wouldn't like to go under power lock 10. And tune engine map after the lock, i was getting low rev grip loss in the rear, couldn't trust it at all. Or engine map first and then lock... No, locks first because i can modulate throttle my self but can't influence locks (sorry, thinking while typing).. Suspension was fine, i like the high ARB in the front. But there is really little time to gain from setup, it's mostly just to make me feel comfortable.
Main problem is that this track is not what i remembered, the old picture is still in my head.. It's always harder to unlearn than learn.
I used wings 10/50, will go even higher if necessary. I don't care about straightline speeds, 7th gear is rarely seen. Power lock 15 was too much for me too but it could be that i need to decrease pump lock in relation more than usually, wouldn't like to go under power lock 10. And tune engine map after the lock, i was getting low rev grip loss in the rear, couldn't trust it at all. Or engine map first and then lock... No, locks first because i can modulate throttle my self but can't influence locks (sorry, thinking while typing).. Suspension was fine, i like the high ARB in the front. But there is really little time to gain from setup, it's mostly just to make me feel comfortable.
Main problem is that this track is not what i remembered, the old picture is still in my head.. It's always harder to unlearn than learn.
Sean Greenlaw
PrestoGP Veteran
Ive been using Reiks setup with 9/48 i think it works pretty well. You can change caster arb and cambers for front would maybe help you find what your looking for but ive been using it as is just with more wing can do same times q up to 11/63 wing. I'll add a lap later
CASTER! Thanks man, i have forgotten that.. I figured how that works just before last season, how could i forget it's effects on stability during cornering. It's a great tool.
I would very much like if everybody did all their practice online. Everybody likes company, and I don't really understand why one would do once practice offline. I've done 100% of my practice online since we started many years ago.
If you had done all your practice online Kennett, I could possibly given you some good advice, but alas, there is no online lap, and I have no idea how many laps you have done and how it have evolved.
Singapore is a complicated track with many turns, and it takes time to learn it for most. Right now I have done 22 laps in race trim at Singapore, and my fastest lap was 1:35:215 (lap 19). I'm not sure where it should be (Reik+1 would be nice), but I know I need many more laps before I'm there. (and I am only "refreshing", I raced Singapore in season 3, 5 and 7 as well).
EDIT: I did another 13 laps (totalling 35). I did not beat my best time (1:35,4xx), but my lap times are getting more stable (1:36's and 1:35's)
If you had done all your practice online Kennett, I could possibly given you some good advice, but alas, there is no online lap, and I have no idea how many laps you have done and how it have evolved.
Singapore is a complicated track with many turns, and it takes time to learn it for most. Right now I have done 22 laps in race trim at Singapore, and my fastest lap was 1:35:215 (lap 19). I'm not sure where it should be (Reik+1 would be nice), but I know I need many more laps before I'm there. (and I am only "refreshing", I raced Singapore in season 3, 5 and 7 as well).
EDIT: I did another 13 laps (totalling 35). I did not beat my best time (1:35,4xx), but my lap times are getting more stable (1:36's and 1:35's)
Bob Luneski
Premium
Every Sunday evening [my time] at about 9pm for an hour or so. That'll be me.
I spend far more time here in the forum than driving , hehehe
I can not answer your question Valter, but here is my setup. I still stubbornly stick to making and using my own [disastrous] creations. Use at your own risk.
Wings 8 / 51[4]
Diff Lock 5%
Diff Coast 5%
Caster always @ 3 degrees.
One reason: this
I know it's vain but i really don't want to have 3 second slower lap registered to my name... I rather get closer before starting to post times.
start my practice with Reik posted setup, the wings were 8/40 but the car was very un-drivable and the rear was unstable and lose, so i kept increasing the rear until i reached 8/53 ! and reduced the dif lock to 8% then the rear was perfect ..my best Q lap with SS and 130-7 (still slow compared to my previous PB) ..then i thought to try higher front wing like 9 and 10 but the car felt very heavy and the handling was very very weird ,... anyone tried higher front wing on this track?
Then i tried a stint with 60 litres fuel and soft but again i had to increase the rear wing up to 60 ..8/60 to be able to drive the car without losing the rear and my best lap was 132:7 on lap 5 or so on the 22 minutes server..
i still find it a bit strange for this track to go so high on the rear compared to what i had on the front ..But the car was great to drive for the whole stint...
For the 22 min server it was around 14 laps and used around 58 litres and softs was ok for the whole stint .. The right side tiers front and rear were down to55% for both and the left side were down to 65% for both...
Hope this info helps a bit for now for those who will start thier prep for this track..
I still need to try this setup with others on track, hopefully Sunday night? ...when Scandinavia meet Down Under ?
,... anyone tried higher front wing on this track? Then i tried a stint with 60 litres fuel and soft but again i had to increase the rear wing up to 60 ..8/60 to be able to drive the car without losing the rear and my best lap was 132:7 on lap 5 or so on the 22 minutes server..
i still find it a bit strange for this track to go so high on the rear compared to what i had on the front ..But the car was great to drive for the whole stint...
For the 22 min server it was around 14 laps and used around 58 litres and softs was ok for the whole stint .. The right side tiers front and rear were down to55% for both and the left side were down to 65% for both...
Hope this info helps a bit for now for those who will start thier prep for this track..
I still need to try this setup with others on track, hopefully Sunday night? ...when Scandinavia meet Down Under ?
Finally someone who knows how this setting works ( the CASTER )..
Can you please Kennet share your knowledge around the caster? With simple words thanks
.. 
I will be jumping online mainly out of curiosity and to ask for help and advice when needed, but my normal way of practice is to do race distance runs offline, trying various things. Online tends to be all about quali testing, whereas I concentrate more on the race. In fact I usually do an offline race every night against 1 AI so I basically have a clear track, it's worked well up to now and at my stay safe age I would forget the track without all those laps. Btw, before I went away my PB at singapore was 1:35.2 and averaging 1:36.7 so way off the times posted at Presto.com, but steady and almost stable.
Don't know if i can explain it, it's a complex process involving suspension geometry.
We are always using positive caster. Shopping karts have huge negative caster so the tire trails behind, the tire wants to turn all the time, only the trail keeps it in line. Positive caster wants to go straight. Less caster and the car turns more easily but wanders thru the straights. More caster and the car goes straight easily, you don't even need to keep your hands on the wheel, the car "auto-stabilizes" itself. But then turns are harder, the actual steering force felt thru the steering column is greater, you need to us more force.
As far as setup goes, caster can contribute but you need to picture how the whole suspension works in different positions. There are few pitfalls when adjusting caster. Test it: put your caster to max, click drive but don't move, just turn the steering wheel to max left and right. You can see the car moving, it's rolling from side to side. Turn max left, and the left side rises a bit. then go back to setup and put caster to min, try the effect. Less caster means less roll, more means more roll. Since the roll is in the wrong direction, loading up the outside tire more than the inside, it's counter-intuitive, we would like to have the exact opposite. This can be corrected somewhat by changing the actual wishbone mounting points, not something we can do in setup. In real life they use washers to tune geometry, it's really simple procedure..
Caster is definitely the last thing to learn and adjust. Caster and camber work dynamically together and both of their angles change when the tire moves up and down depending on the wishbone lengths, their 6 mounting points, it's very complex thing. I got it somehow in my head but i need to imagine how the suspension works in rest and max/min positions roughly. So, enough complexity yet?
I picture caster like this: Put your hands in front of you, palms flat, thumbs pointing upwards. Those are the tires in maximum caster angle. Now picture an axle in center of those wheels. Turn both hands 45 degrees clockwise, your turning right. Look at angle of the axle: it's not flat parallel to the ground anymore, left side is lower than the right. That is the same roll you saw in the garage earlier. Of course this is an exaggerated example, the actual changes are much smaller (and the cars turning radius in this kind setup would be close to infinity, only casters effect turns the wheel now...)
Oh ****, i'm on my lunch break, i need to eat now... But have to add, Toe in/out.. It's the third variable when thinking of caster/camber in different steering positions and up/ down movement in non-symmetrical suspension geometry and the whole thing makes my head hurt.
We are always using positive caster. Shopping karts have huge negative caster so the tire trails behind, the tire wants to turn all the time, only the trail keeps it in line. Positive caster wants to go straight. Less caster and the car turns more easily but wanders thru the straights. More caster and the car goes straight easily, you don't even need to keep your hands on the wheel, the car "auto-stabilizes" itself. But then turns are harder, the actual steering force felt thru the steering column is greater, you need to us more force.
As far as setup goes, caster can contribute but you need to picture how the whole suspension works in different positions. There are few pitfalls when adjusting caster. Test it: put your caster to max, click drive but don't move, just turn the steering wheel to max left and right. You can see the car moving, it's rolling from side to side. Turn max left, and the left side rises a bit. then go back to setup and put caster to min, try the effect. Less caster means less roll, more means more roll. Since the roll is in the wrong direction, loading up the outside tire more than the inside, it's counter-intuitive, we would like to have the exact opposite. This can be corrected somewhat by changing the actual wishbone mounting points, not something we can do in setup. In real life they use washers to tune geometry, it's really simple procedure..
Caster is definitely the last thing to learn and adjust. Caster and camber work dynamically together and both of their angles change when the tire moves up and down depending on the wishbone lengths, their 6 mounting points, it's very complex thing. I got it somehow in my head but i need to imagine how the suspension works in rest and max/min positions roughly. So, enough complexity yet?
I picture caster like this: Put your hands in front of you, palms flat, thumbs pointing upwards. Those are the tires in maximum caster angle. Now picture an axle in center of those wheels. Turn both hands 45 degrees clockwise, your turning right. Look at angle of the axle: it's not flat parallel to the ground anymore, left side is lower than the right. That is the same roll you saw in the garage earlier. Of course this is an exaggerated example, the actual changes are much smaller (and the cars turning radius in this kind setup would be close to infinity, only casters effect turns the wheel now...)
Oh ****, i'm on my lunch break, i need to eat now... But have to add, Toe in/out.. It's the third variable when thinking of caster/camber in different steering positions and up/ down movement in non-symmetrical suspension geometry and the whole thing makes my head hurt.
Valter Ostman
PrestoGP Veteran
A simple explanation of the setting. If you look at a chopper MC the front fork is often in an extremely tilted position. And that would be a very high caster setting. On a normal racing or street bike you have a more conservative fork angle thus a lower caster setting.Finally someone who knows how this setting works ( the CASTER )..
Can you please Kennet share your knowledge around the caster? With simple words thanks
Yup, those are the two common examples, chopper vs shopping kart. But bikes don't apply to cars, they don't have camber or toe and suspension travel is totally linear, they move only up/down. In F1 suspension nothing moves in straight lines, every movement has an arc. But choppers show how you can turn just using camber/caster (actually, camber torque aka camber thrust..) and that does apply as is to F1 cars too.
But the main point is,
More caster = straight line stability, heavy steering (you are actually lifting the car with your steering wheel),more tire wear, auto-stability
Less caster = cornering, light steering, less tire wear, restless
Toe in/out and camber affects caster and caster affects them both. I can picture any two of those together but all three goes over my head. Like if you have high caster and high toe in, the outside part of the tire may be the only part that has full contact with the road during cornering, thus increasing tire wear. You may not notice it from grip alone, the load may be just right that even half of the contact patch is enough to make the car turn but the margins are really thin, you may loose grip suddenly and it's hard to regain it without straightening the steering wheel. It can lead to a feeling that the car is understeering while it's not, correcting it with rear spring/shocks/ARB may lead to understeering AND oversteering car at the same time. Add camber to that equation and the geometry may increase the contact patch instead of decreasing it..
Caster is also a tool to tune slip angles, how, well, this is not clear to me yet. Very much track dependent setting, i'll decrease caster first in Singapore, it's tight, not a lot of straights. But i can't tell what it will do in practice, i just have to test it, preferably 10 laps or so to see tire wear/temps... Caster has to be tested separately, you can't make any other adjustments at the same time!
Rear tires don't have caster in the same sense than front, it only applies to steerable tires.
EDIT: Oh yeah, caster affects braking too, negative caster would make the car climb over the front tires, positive caster makes it bite the ground. We don't feel that, the changes to our caster angles are too minute to feel anything, i guess only telemetry can show it. It also affect in what angle bumbs are moving the suspension, 45 degrees caster would be ideal for straight line, bumby surface but turning would be extremely hard. Check dragsters, specially Nitros and how their front wheels area aligned.. http://championspeedshop.com/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/march-meet-friday/march_meet_friday5.jpg You can see in that picture the mounting of the wishbones to spindle/hub is hugely positive, it looks like 15 degrees or more.
But the main point is,
More caster = straight line stability, heavy steering (you are actually lifting the car with your steering wheel),more tire wear, auto-stability
Less caster = cornering, light steering, less tire wear, restless
Toe in/out and camber affects caster and caster affects them both. I can picture any two of those together but all three goes over my head. Like if you have high caster and high toe in, the outside part of the tire may be the only part that has full contact with the road during cornering, thus increasing tire wear. You may not notice it from grip alone, the load may be just right that even half of the contact patch is enough to make the car turn but the margins are really thin, you may loose grip suddenly and it's hard to regain it without straightening the steering wheel. It can lead to a feeling that the car is understeering while it's not, correcting it with rear spring/shocks/ARB may lead to understeering AND oversteering car at the same time. Add camber to that equation and the geometry may increase the contact patch instead of decreasing it..
Caster is also a tool to tune slip angles, how, well, this is not clear to me yet. Very much track dependent setting, i'll decrease caster first in Singapore, it's tight, not a lot of straights. But i can't tell what it will do in practice, i just have to test it, preferably 10 laps or so to see tire wear/temps... Caster has to be tested separately, you can't make any other adjustments at the same time!
Rear tires don't have caster in the same sense than front, it only applies to steerable tires.
EDIT: Oh yeah, caster affects braking too, negative caster would make the car climb over the front tires, positive caster makes it bite the ground. We don't feel that, the changes to our caster angles are too minute to feel anything, i guess only telemetry can show it. It also affect in what angle bumbs are moving the suspension, 45 degrees caster would be ideal for straight line, bumby surface but turning would be extremely hard. Check dragsters, specially Nitros and how their front wheels area aligned.. http://championspeedshop.com/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/march-meet-friday/march_meet_friday5.jpg You can see in that picture the mounting of the wishbones to spindle/hub is hugely positive, it looks like 15 degrees or more.
Camber/caster/toe interaction is one the toughest things to understand, there are hundreds of pro drivers who never got it in their head completely in their whole career..
Well, the practice (session) server will not display your times, but regardless of that I think one should be online. I cannot force anyone, but the idea is to create enough traffic on our servers to make it worth while driving online. I think people will be more optimistic about your preperations if they can see a lap time that improves during the 14 days than nothing.
We don't have any servers for quali-testing anymore, the closest you get is a 15 min qual session leading up to a 2x5 laps race, a 22 min race and a 33 min race. I usually do no quali-practice at all, only race trim. But if you like to race with AI that is something we do not have online.
Bottom line, everybody do as they wish, but practicing online I see as a contribution to the league. Also, looking at online activity is my best (and almost only) tool to make sure everybody are ready.
Caster: Caster increases the camber effect when you are turning the wheel (but not in a straight line).
Forgot about the practice server, i'm there now doing setup, forgot that it exists. It's good to have one where there's no timetable. I like to take long breaks, like this one...
1:35 came pretty easy, the caster was already low (3 degrees) so i won't touch that. I settled on 9/48 wings but i decreased rear ARB. Mostly the rear was unstable at low speed corners. But it's going to right direction.
1:35 came pretty easy, the caster was already low (3 degrees) so i won't touch that. I settled on 9/48 wings but i decreased rear ARB. Mostly the rear was unstable at low speed corners. But it's going to right direction.
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