SEASON 10 Race 7 BAHRAIN - Sean's INCIDENT REPORT

obviously this isnt working, ive gave my opinions and youve gave yours, i dont see your point you dont see mine, better just letting someone else deal with it, i think you dived twice, you dont, something is wrong here, we arent on the same wavelength.

I would also like to get others opinion about this T1 incident with Sean. Namely, 1) when is it ok for a driver in front to get back to driving line after a mistake? 2) How big a mistake there has to be from the driver in front that it's allowed to driver behind to try to benefit from it? In our incident Sean goes over one cars width wide and I move to use this space. There had been no collison had I not moved to use the given space, or if Sean after going wide had used the wider line out of T1 (which he used on lap 29), which was used as the normal racing line in the race by several drivers (including me and Dino). I personally think this is a racing incident with 50-50 blame on me and Sean. And I am sorry it happened.

regards the last part of your post, you shouldve maybe thought about doing these things yourself afterall youve accused me and sean now of purposely taking you out, me at melbourne, now sean here, i was called lame and whatever else for not feeling a contact with you, now its been put in writing and on video that sean made a nasty move on you, but anyhoo we cant have our cake an eat it, if you want to accuse me or sean of these things then be a man and take some back and dont cry about it.

I never called you lame or "whatever else". I called one of your comments "lame". I regarded Melbourne as dealed already?

you remember marko we race regular on the servers, we know each others style. ive learned that youll make moves that others wouldnt, ive also learned that you hardly ever leave the space required for other drivers, this is by racing you a lot and seeing first hand how you drive, you probably feel the same way about me which is good because at least you and i know what to expect from each other when we are around each other on track.

I will not comment on these unless you show a video where in an official PrestoGP race I "make moves that others would not" that endangeres others race, or where I "hardly ever leave the space required for other drivers". I don't think you make ill moves too often. I also think you usually leave enough space for others, so I have no problem with you.
 
we are going around in circles, what i mean is your very quick to jump to conclusions about others using nasty moves or forcing you offroad but when we are dealing with you touching someone twice its huge reports with lots of videos about how sean is partly to blame? for what? being hit in the rear twice lol i still dont get this at all.

what i said about you not giving room and stuff i stand by, because thats the opinions ive formed of you by the races on server and anytime ive been close to you on track, now thats not saying your a dirty driver or anything like it, your definatly not, its just my opinion that your uncompromising when you start a move you usually carry it through wether it involves a touch or not, everyone has opinions, i know alot feel im too aggressive on track and their entitled to their opinions, maybe its just i voice mine more often than them i dont know.

lets get another thing clear, i have no personal problems with you marko, your a hard competator and your incident reports are usually spot on with detail and solutions, just in this case i think your wrong, we could probably agree to disagree forever on it so like youve already asked for its better if its left to others to see what they think.
 
we are going around in circles, what i mean is your very quick to jump to conclusions about others using nasty moves or forcing you offroad but when we are dealing with you touching someone twice its huge reports with lots of videos about how sean is partly to blame? for what? being hit in the rear twice lol i still dont get this at all.

The unclear part here deals with that if you can get back to driving line after leaving it, when there is a driver behind. There is a certain limit in going wide (driver in front), when all of the PrestoGP drivers would move to use the given space (I would think if somebody misses the apex by 5 meters, then all of us would go and try overtaking). So, what is the common opinion, when is it allowed to use the area left free by an opponent who goes wide in a corner? When somebody goes 3 meters wide? 4m, 5m? So, I don't see it unproblematic that Sean missed the apex, and then got back to driving line supposing there was nobody there (even though there was).

what i said about you not giving room and stuff i stand by, because thats the opinions ive formed of you by the races on server and anytime ive been close to you on track, now thats not saying your a dirty driver or anything like it, your definatly not, its just my opinion that your uncompromising when you start a move you usually carry it through wether it involves a touch or not, everyone has opinions, i know alot feel im too aggressive on track and their entitled to their opinions, maybe its just i voice mine more often than them i dont know.

I would like to hear others' opinions about this too. I think there's a huge difference between not giving enough room for others, or giving the minimum space (but still so that the other driver can safely make it), what it comes to fair play. I think I do leave room to others to succesfully make the corner with not much margin though. But I also think I can do it constantly, so that small margins do not endanger me or others. Otherwise I would not have been able to drive so many corners side-by-side with Helder and others this season. I never try an overtake unless I think I can do it without a touch. I also think I have really good safety record at Presto in general.
 
the first part of your last post is all true except that sean didnt leave the racing line by even 3m, its maybe half a car width from his previous lap and that would be roughly 2ft? but you were a good bit behind each time, never side by side, the only time you were side by side is when the contact happened the 2nd time and sean half spun, each time sean takes turn 1 wether slightly wide or not he has to to turn back to get onto the racing line, each time he did this he didnt have a car side by side with him, you were behind both times when sean took turn 1, each time the gap that is there when sean takes the corner is gone by the time your crossing the kerb, his car is already on the racing line again and taking a normal exit, the only place for your car then to go is into a collision path with sean, all i can see from both laps is that you could either follow him round or go even tighter at turn 1 which would then mean your apex speed needs to be considerably slower than what it was.

second part of your post, please dont over analyse what ive said, its only my opinion from racing close with you, and remember i never questioned your safety record and also said your definatly not a dirty driver, youve pretty much understood what i ment anyway when you mention that you dont leave much margin for people but you can control it, your correct but each time it also depends on the person your giving small margins to is able to control it too, i too have had great action this season with reik at nurburg and jim at sepang amongst many others, its always a pity when some incidents get in the way and we know its always going to happen in future too.
 
I thought this was kind of sorted with you saying were going to let me by I thought you were agreeing you just made slight mistake t1, but if you thinking its still 50/50 can see what others think to obviously I don't really see what else I could do though, I think David, Steeve and Nico are only others to comment so far.
Only thing extra I will say is I make very slight mistake in braking but my line through corner is pretty steady and i'm not really coming back across before contact i'm pretty much following a steady line. There's plenty room on side of me if you just went slight slower you could have took that space or slight lift or very slight more of a margin behind my car and you get good run at me upto t3 and those are the easiest ways I see of avoiding contact as you can actually see me to.
 
I thought this was kind of sorted with you saying were going to let me by I thought you were agreeing you just made slight mistake t1, but if you thinking its still 50/50 can see what others think to obviously I don't really see what else I could do though, I think David, Steeve and Nico are only others to comment so far.
Only thing extra I will say is I make very slight mistake in braking but my line through corner is pretty steady and i'm not really coming back across before contact i'm pretty much following a steady line. There's plenty room on side of me if you just went slight slower you could have took that space or slight lift or very slight more of a margin behind my car and you get good run at me upto t3 and those are the easiest ways I see of avoiding contact as you can actually see me to.

What more could I have done then? I brake hard from around 120m until around 30m before corner, when I ease the brakes a bit to be able to steer. During this last 30m my speed decreases from around 100 km/h to around 65 km/h, so still pretty much (=the brakes are still applied). I also steer the car so that I could leave from T1 on the inside line, leaving outside free for you.
 
I realise your frustratiuon Marko but you still make small mistake contact with my car and you have a lot of options as I said same as above you could have slowed more went inside, broke later went deep or just stayed behind me adjust speed to what you can see in front of you, as1st I see of you is after the contact.

Everyone makes mistakes its ok Marko im not saying you've done this deliberately lol and obviously its not your objective to touch my car but maybe the small margins you were applying were the reason it happened as im taking quite a steady line ahead is all I can do no matter how fast or slow im going at the time and im quite predictable. Its just mistakes happens and there its costs us both quite big, easier avoided by you, whos fault ulitimately doesn't matter and its not a blame game.
 
I realise your frustratiuon Marko but you still make small mistake contact with my car and you have a lot of options as I said same as above you could have slowed more went inside, broke later went deep or just stayed behind me adjust speed to what you can see in front of you, as1st I see of you is after the contact.

I could have slowed down maybe 5 km/h more, but then I would have had to brake so hard that it would have compromised my steering. I could have not gone any more inside, because I went so much inside as I could. Also staying behind you in your driving line was not an option as I had run into your back if I had tried that.
 
...as im taking quite a steady line ahead is all I can do no matter how fast or slow im going at the time and im quite predictable. Its just mistakes happens and there its costs us both quite big, easier avoided by you...

Well, I think there is no way I could have predicted that you brake more than usual and first go a bit wide and then try to get back to the driving line. But I guess it's a matter of taste. I have to say that had been difficult to avoid this incident by me.
 
Im afraid if compromising my steering, braking harder and hitting car ahead I know which I would pick :thumbsup: usually in presto we take to avoid contact at all costs even if means diving out of way, if you couldn't do either go inside more then you simply have been going to fast like previous lap where you also touch rear and outside more was your option even if to fast.
So you honestly see no way you could have avoided hitting the rear of my car ? and if in same situation again you wouldn't allow for any more of a margin and you would still go faster than car ahead even if it meant making contact ?:O_o: to be honest if you cant see logic in what ive said I cant see what else I can say as everything ive said even simply slower avoids contact.

Edit also you don't have to predict it you can react to it like you said you did reacting to it and going into the seen gap, are you saying if I had been perfectly on apex you would have hit me harder lol I give up.
 
Im afraid if compromising my steering, braking harder and hitting car ahead I know which I would pick :thumbsup: usually in presto we take to avoid contact at all costs even if means diving out of way, if you couldn't do either go inside more then you simply have been going to fast like previous lap where you also touch rear and outside more was your option even if to fast.
So you honestly see no way you could have avoided hitting the rear of my car ? and if in same situation again you wouldn't allow for any more of a margin and you would still go faster than car ahead even if it meant making contact ?:O_o: to be honest if you cant see logic in what ive said I cant see what else I can say as everything ive said even simply slower avoids contact.

I find it funny that I'm here defending my actions and not you after our hits on lap 31. If you compare these two hits, and what I tried to do to avoid the first hit and what you tried to do to avoid the second one, their immediate effects on the other driver, and their effects on our whole race result, you can see that me hitting you at T1 had a lot less effect on you, than what you hitting me at T8 had on me. Braking really hard from start of the braking until the apex, might have prevented T1 incident from my side true.

What I am saying that T1 incident had never happened, if you stayed on the racing line and had normal speed through it. It also did not happen, if you after leaving the racing line, had stayed on the outside line. Did you check my video of T1 Bahrain laps 28-31? There can be seen that you change driving line from lap to lap through T1, and this is definitely one contributing factor in the T1 incident.

Edit also you don't have to predict it you can react to it like you said you did reacting to it and going into the seen gap, are you saying if I had been perfectly on apex you would have hit me harder lol I give up.

It's like your saying that "brake testing" is totally ok, and if it leads to accident, it 's always the fault of the one who is behind?
 
Hey guys, even if i was not part of this race, its killing me to see that you don't come to an according point. Its killing me enough to have me look at the replays a few times. So here is what i see.

From lap 28 to 31, Sean has defended his position in many ways, from inside to outiside, from inside to inside, from outside to inside (lap 31). That is legitime defense to my view. But i think Marko was seeing the threat of Helder and Reik coming fast behing him and he figured he should do a move on Sean as soon as he get a chance, am i right Marko?. That happen in T1 lap 31, Sean brakes just a bit late and went a bit wide, maybe half a car off the best racing line. But Marko was about 0.3 behind on the straight so Sean could not figure such a small mistake could lead to an overtake attempt by Marko, am i right Sean?? I have to say that Marko is so fast that he can challenge such a small mistake from other driver, where less than a handfull driver could do so.

Conclusion, Marko was faster than Sean and didn't want Helder and Reik to challenge him, so he wanted to get by Sean as soon as possible. Sean in first place wanted to defend his position the best he could (very simple to understand) and didn't expect an attempt there, as Marko was further behind than the 2 previous laps. So Sean took his normal line, Marko didn't thought Sean would go back in the racing line as he went a bit wide in T1 entry. That leads to a contact. So i guess we can conclude to a racing incident. Both driver's thoughts didn't match, so contact happen. In my opinion, Marko should let sean by sometimes in the lap where its safe to do, but having Helder and Reik fighting for the lead, it became a bit tricky. Then Sean had contact with Marko some 40 sec later, and i trully beleive that was not on purpose. But that didn't gave the opportunity to Marko to let Sean by, if he had the intention to do so.... and i think he had... am i right Marko?

That is what i see in this incident.

If you guys agree this, please like my post and move on! Racing incident will always happen here and there. The heat of the moment has a lot to do with it, plus the "strange" Bahrain T1-T2 configuration, this also is a contributing factor in my opinion.

Hope i understand the situation well enough!!

Steeve
 
Good idea Valter! ;)

Nevertheless I think I can (and will) consider your reminder starting with the incident thread after Barcelona as I like to say the following which isn't an analysis at all:

1.
I think Nicos post summarieses everything very well and I somehow felt the same after the race. ;)

2.
Sorry for my sarcasm in an earlier post. :rolleyes: I think I was wrong there, even in what I wanted to say about (over-)taking someone by surprise. Maybe this goes for real racing but could be too aggressive in what we call racing here. -> Lesson learned and again sorry to Sean! ;)

3.
When watching replays we must be carefull. Even if we watch the ones from both involved parties, they don't reflect the real action 100% accurate! So in the first place we need to trust in everything the involved parties say. (Which doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss everyones behavior.)

4.
I trust in every driver at PrestoGP and would never be worried fighting close again (also side by side). :thumbsup:

5.
A final personal note:
With Helder I think I had the most intense battle ever, lasting nearly the whole race icluding a thriller finish. That's why I was a bit more heated and filled with adrenalin during the whole race, which could have had an influence on my (maybe wrong) instinctive reaction in my incident with Sean.
But finally I loved that thrill and even if I had lost my battle with Helder I would've never shouted on him driving me off the road in lap 2, because I know he just wasn't aware of me that time and it didn't happen in a long time (maybe it didn't ever so far).

PS:
Thank you Marko for your apex speed analysis! Now we know where you have (had :sneaky:) your advantages! (Is this sarcasm again?)
 
I thought we agreed that the incident thread was the place for the analysis leading to a conclusion as to what the cause of the incident was. Then it was thought that one would write out the elements we must improve to avoid a similar incident. Nothing else should be written/posted here if I remember it correctly.

It would have been great Valter if we had acheived that. But to be honest PrestoGP is more or less making its own path these days, I have lost a lot of control the later seasons, therefore trying to corrigate/control what happens take a lot more time than it used to and I usually give up or don't even try in the first place.

EDIT: I'll move the post's to a new thread to make it easier. I hope no-one takes this the wrong way
 
..............................

For the lapping in vid non incidents, I was more on about with Kurt its fine even though not ideal line for both of us gives Kurt especially poor exit onto straight slight lift and you could have followed me through keeping good line and losing less time and then with Nico and Vale you leave the track which I never like to see I know you guys are fighting and it must be a shock me coming behind but it pains me to see people leaving the track in order to let me by I think you guys could have thought id been coming and possible prepared to go down inside or outside, obviously difficult to balance racing, checking mirrors ,preparing to lap and being surprised, but something if different it was not affecting you guys race as much as it did and for me driving past a car that has left track is also unsettling as you never know what can happen but this is deffo the most difficult lapping scenario.

............................


heheheh:) Sean you have described very well the situation a "shock" if you like call so:D but often is more easy / useful leave the track because in a little fraction of sec. must decided let pass him in this point or next turn and not all the times there is right place then thinking Im more slow than him more time behind me more time lost for him at the same time I must hold concentration and mine position, blue flag for long time is not good etc.etc.
The solution is easy: I have to be faster :rolleyes:


PS hahahah:D nice video David
 
You don't need to defend your actions Markos, its just a slight mistake, I already said what happened with me hitting you, its a bigger mistake and I was out of control avoiding hitting Reik I slide into you and I apologised extremely and I said to avoid I simply don't need to be as close to Reik as not entirely certain where he will be going to:thumbsup: .

My contact with you and yours with mine is unavoidable as they happened live in race, but when we look at it after there's lots of ways if done differently I could avoid mine hitting you and you can avoid yours hitting me looking at replay, I think you may be looking at it like how to avoid it if put in exact same positions on track and reliving inside replay, obviously that's probably near impossible and irrelevant, its about as I always say it what's best and easiest ways to avoid in future races.
So I don't see why you cant just say that obviously, if in same position again in future you could avoid by ways already suggested and was going to let you by and I say np Marko and could have been as simple as that:thumbsup: .

Do you see what im trying to say Marko ? To be clear When saying you could avoid it by various ways or whatever, it applies to future racing if happened, not the actual race.
Ive tried to be as clear as I can about what's said and how its meant, as I think some may be lost in translation as this is pretty much how we always approach incidents and I thought you were looking at it to, although you are quite new to Marko :thumbsup:.

Valter's quite right about incident thread, but also there was more to talk about than just incidents to. Perhaps I should have opened a separate thread (Thanks Nico :thumbsup:you've not lost anything, maybe a few hairs, I have:)) to discus the rules on letting people by etc.
I thinks its definitely been necessary as we all who posted anyway agree that the incidents should have resulted in returning of position where it didn't happen in the race, so any normal incident thread would have resulted in a Sos for contact Sean:( and a np from me, where as I wanted to know what we should do to help everyone be on same page.
 

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