Restarts and the Restart

[David Turnbull]

nico

i think your picking me up wrong in what ive tried to say, i dont mean ive learned nothing and will just go for it when theres a chance, i purpoesely left tim plenty of room due to past experiences, i dont have a problem with learning and with me leaving tim so much room it shows that i have, i have a problem with how do i aim to be competative if i cant pass tim? i cant leave him infinate amount of room, when we are racing at the front there might be only 1 chance in a race where a pass can be made and it decides the rest of the race, i took my chance there and on my screen tim left me alot of room and i left him alot too, none of us are at fault for the incident we cant legislate for that sort of thing, i would do the same again in the same circumstance and thats maybe were me and you differ in opinion, i see tim as a fast competator and me and him are very close in race/qual and skill level, we drive the way we think is safest but throw in an invisible barrier that increases or decreases in size each race and problems occur, but me or tim cant let this affect our competativeness or whats the point, we'd be as well awarding reik the championship before each season starts, yes theres the fun factor, and i always aim to have fun, i always aim to be competative too at the same time, in the past thos lines maybe became blurred sometimes but now i purposely try to leave extra room but still incidents occur, im at a loss as to what should happen now but i will try and pass tim again but next time what happens if the hit box has changed yet again?

anthony

im sorry anthony i thought youd called for a restart, apologys for getting that wrong, i saw the "restart?" by tim and then your name came up i thought youd called too, again i apologise.

tim

no probs tim, i apologise if my post felt that way to you it wasnt intended, just intended as my take on the events of the restart, we have a serious problem between us though (not personal) that we need to sort out, we both have the best internet connections available to us, does anyone have any suggestions as to what could be causing me and tim to have more sync issues than anyone else? id appreciate input into this because im sure everyone will agree that its not fair we continue to have these and its not fair that either of us should loose our competative edge due to it.

 

[Valter Ostman]

After the okay's from a number of drivers I wrote 'restart?' in the chat. I'm sorry Nicolai that I contributed to the confusion you must have felt.

I'm always sorry if a driver is crashed out off the race. I hope the rest of us feel the same way. Restarts is not a solution. That is like treating only the symptoms of an illness instead of getting rid of the real cause of it.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

David, I had no complaints about your actions on the track, I even said chances are I would have done the same. What I reacted to was that you seemed to close the door on even trying to see if it is possible to avoid. I understand that you are more competitve in the front, but at the same time you carry a greater responsibillity as mistakes/incidents can affect the rest of the grid.

does anyone have any suggestions as to what could be causing me and tim to have more sync issues than anyone else?

As I've said earlier, I disagree that the two of you have a special sync problem.

It is natural that when the signal have to travel 20000 km through a lot of technology it will both have a higher ping and be more unstable relative to you and me David, where the signal have to travel maybe 1000km and be both quicker and more stable. You can see on the news when they are live from the other side of the globe that there is a great delay in the signal, and often interruptions as well.

 

[Sean Greenlaw]

Tim.
Im sos if you were confused by me mentioning the points but i did state these were just the facts of the situation and as i thought may have been in your mind to ask for restart. As you say your very happy to admit that this was part of your reason however if i was in your situation i would be ashamed to say i asked for restart for such reasons, if anything it was up to Peter and Anthony to type restart but they didnt and i feel for the people like them who have had many a time race wrecked 1st lap and never asked for restart as they are usually further down grid may also dont want there driving to affect race results.
They may look at it like how come it wasnt a restart then but it was now and feel insignificant. I think we agreed many times that no posting during race and if at anytime a restart was going to happen, it was down to Race directors Judgement if there were alot of grid out lap 1.
Id love if if everyone could finish everyrace and we possibly could have done this in the past with a restarts but it made it more of a goal to achieve with us doing it without restarts and everyone had stuck by it till now.

I to look at it like the 2nd part of the incident like Nico and was avoidable if i was in your situation Tim i would have more than likely stayed on grass until everyone had passed without accelerating.

On the sync issue i thinks its been a problem for many seasons from euros vs aussies and not just now, i dont know how you can think its not been a issue ever before ?

My take n the sync issue is in the past i think when sync issue occurred it was the euro participent that was the one going flying off track when invisible contact happened now this season since the big updates its seems to be the other way round now and its the aussies that get the brunt of the contact.
I think its becoming more apparent now because its happen to same people more often and with comparison videos we see the big differences with car positions on track. Most of the time i can get close with Tim Peter and Anthony but i do sometimes see them slight jerky at times especially at start of races.
Maybe its just a game limitation and sometimes the lag can be progressivley worse when at speed and change of direction to as its hard to see what David can do differently in the video as it looks like there plenty room, these are probably the fastest things used with race07 right ? so maybe we just pushing the limitations of the netcode or its just poor for worldwide connections, i know even online with wtcc ive have noticed lag between late night competators but ive used rfactor with people from all over and usually there doesnt seem to be any lag and i think rfactor works better at higher speeds of f1 cars we do so maybe it has a better netcoding im not sure it would be interesting if theres some data facts on the games or if we could find our latency when connected and compare etc im sure Kennet may have some knowledge of this.

 

[David Turnbull]

so what would i do in that situation when theres a clear gap that tim has left? back out and not bother overtaking even when taking a very tight line to avoid tim? watkins is the sort of track that if i cant overtake on that corner then i might never have gotten another chance so if your meaning that it was too risky due to sync issues to pass in that corner even with the room given by both of us, then id reply by saying that i dont see the point in racing competatively with tim anymore, do you get my point? i do understand yours but i didnt close the door on the possibility to avoid, there is no possibility to avoid it, you either want me to not try a pass or you want me to leave enough room, i left enough room and so did tim but it still happened.

nico i know we sometimes (often) get confused with each others meanings in posts but id like to make it clear im not in a bad mood over any of this so any of what i say doesny carry malice behind it or anything, i just want to get to the bottom of this sync crap.

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

so what would i do in that situation when theres a clear gap that tim has left? back out and not bother overtaking even when taking a very tight line to avoid tim?

I would want this to be an option/alternative everytime you have a chance to overtake an Aussie, as it is for me. When one should go for that option depends on mainly two variables (simplified), the distance there will be between the cars (%chance of lag incident) and what the race situation is (what will the consequences be if lag incident).

I agree that there was reasonable space between you, and if it was the last lap of the race I would 100% certainly gone for it. If it was in the middle of the race with no-one behind I would also have gone for it. However, this was at the very start of the race, and at that stage I have 98% safety focus and 2% competition focus, and possibly I would not have gone for it (but I do not know, being ahead it is important for safety behind that one goes as fast as one can).

So the only thing I was/am reacting to is that not overtaking an Aussie in t1 lap 1 with 14 cars immediatly behind is not even an option for you when you reflect on the incident. I think if this had happened on any other lap nobody would have raised an eyebrow as it is unlikely Tim would have collected more drivers, and nobody would have called it an unfair pass, only tough luck for Tim.

Btw, I am not aggitated either, and am delighted that you to are in a good mood and I share your desire to minimise future disappointments caused by sync and lag

 

[David Turnbull]

ive done a few speedtests to see what was happening with my connection, to me it seems fine, although i can see that download between me and australia is pretty rubbish its around the same as i recieve in upload.

this is within the uk....
http://www.speedtest.net/result/2327594713.png

this is to sydney, australia.....
http://www.speedtest.net/result/2327604386.png

this is to oslo,norway.......
http://www.speedtest.net/result/2327597655.png

 

[Bob Miley]

I don't think a restart is an option, bad things happen, accept it. First race was going really well for me, avoided accidents and things were good. Second race all went ass up and was forced to escape so I didn't cause accident, but I didn't expect another restart, it was just how it was. I may not have had a problem if Race 1 had continued, then again I may have had, you never know. It's unfortunate and annoying if you are taken out through no fault of your own, but it can happen any time, then all the time and effort put into practice is wasted. I would never ask for a restart, if it meant my race ending early every time. In fact if I was to disconnect in warm up I would not want the sessions cycled round, just continue as normal and enjoy your race, recycling to let me join could cause someone else to disconnect and so on and so on.

Bit here there and everywhere with this but bottom line is I say no restarts (unless everyone gets booted off)

 

[Peter Marshall]

I agree with Bob's assesment above in as much one persons 'bad luck' always translates into another persons 'good luck'. And we all deserve to have a bit of 'good luck' during the season. It is both motivating and rewarding for them and I do like to see an underdog do well occassionally.

Certainly it is the case that when I have had an exceptional race result it is as a direct result of other drivers' 'bad luck' in the form of mistakes, errors, accidents, a poor pit stop, etc.


David and Tim, who won the Internet speed race? J hehehehhe My ADSL connection and 30+ year old copper wire in the ground is like 2 tin cans and a string by comparison It is all I can have [get] where I live. shrug...

 

[Valter Ostman]

I agree with Bob's assesment above in as much one persons 'bad luck' always translates into another persons 'good luck'. And we all deserve to have a bit of 'good luck' during the season. It is both motivating and rewarding for them and I do like to see an underdog do well occassionally.

Certainly it is the case that when I have had an exceptional race result it is as a direct result of other drivers' 'bad luck' in the form of mistakes, errors, accidents, a poor pit stop, etc.


David and Tim, who won the Internet speed race? J hehehehhe My ADSL connection and 30+ year old copper wire in the ground is like 2 tin cans and a string by comparison It is all I can have [get] where I live. shrug...

I don't think we need a high file transfer speed to drive online. The stability of the connection is the most important parameter. I have DSL and that works ok as long as the service is running. The last months my supplier have had some issues and the the line have gone down a number of times every day. I hope they will solve this because there are no alternatives out here in the bush.

 

[Peter Marshall]

I don't think we need a high file transfer speed to drive online. The stability of the connection is the most important parameter. I have DSL and that works ok as long as the service is running. The last months my supplier have had some issues and the the line have gone down a number of times every day. I hope they will solve this because there are no alternatives out here in the bush.

I would agree. Transfer rate of data required for the game would be minimal. As Nico has mentioned many times, it is "packet loss" that causes disconnects, etc...

It is exceedingly rare that I have suffered a disconnect [maybe only once and that's when my computer BSOD], although it is also true that I perhaps haven't played the game as much as others; experince in context.

 

[Alberto Casado]

Hi all, I know I am not a member of this league (I planned to join this summer, but life happened). Anyway, I occasionally follow how the events go and this last race was certainly eventful.If you don't mind a couple suggestions from an outsider:

Right now the main reasons for saying no to restarts are where to set the limit and Nico having to judge on the fly with incomplete information all together with driving full speed. Far from ideal. I will not cover what to do if half the grid disconnected because I think that is quite clear.

To fix this in a flexible way, I would recommend that you introduce a 'pseudo safety car' rule. I will give an example, ignore any specifics (how many, how long, etc) just to give an idea.

A - Lap n (chances are this will happen only in 1st - 2nd lap) multitudinary crash sends several cars flying all around.

B - If you are out/heavily damaged and you consider it was unfair (you were totally innocent, was a clear glitch, etc) you type in chat '1 restart /yourname/'. (each following person increases teh number) If you consider you are out, but was your fault, understandable race incident, s*t happens, etc, you say nothing, retire, crawl to garage, in short, act as if restarts didn't exist.

C - Third (consecutive, of course, not the third 5 minutes after the other 2) person that calls for a restart automatically sets safety car conditions. Types in chat: 'SC out, use only up to n-th gear from next lap' a couple of times.

D - Once this message is relayed, everybody finishes his current lap and after T1 (not at finish line!, which could be even more crashes!) goes only up to n-th gear. (2nd or 3rd should be ok to navigate around).

E - This opens a SC period where people can quickly discuss whether to restart or not. You may set a democratic threshold (2/3 says yes in order to restart) or put it up to Nico, or a mix of both. Even if the race is not restarted, it gives a chance for the damaged to repair and get to the back of the pack so their race can be still interesting.

F - During this period you should not be like Vettel. Give space, just cruise, give the chance to type to drivers in your front/back. Probably a limit on the amount of text should be set to prevent text flooding. I think a fixed order is the best. First, the number 1 that called for restart writes (brief!). Then the 2nd reads it, waits a couple seconds, writes. then the 3rd reads, waits a couple seconds, writes. Then the full grid gives opinion following the current race order (read-wait-write).

G - Nico or the designated race director may poll again the affected drivers (It may be that after a couple minutes they are repaired and the restart is not needed).

H - Race is red flagged and restarted, or simply resumed on next lap (Nico or the designated race director should broadcast 'SC in next lap, resume racing in x laps in Tx'). You may allow for an extra SC lap (this time no chat) to swerve around, warm up tyres, bunch up, etc). Again, to prevent strange changes of speed at the finish line, I would advice restarting race speed at the last or first turn of the circuit (whichever the slowest). This should be agreed before the event and relayed on the SC in message.


Well, there it is, you may take it, leave it, change it or ignore it completely. Just a suggestion.

Reasons why I would follow this:
- It resembles reality. If several cars crash in the first lap SC happens.
- It is flexible. It is almost impossible to regulate every eventuality. this allows decisions on the fly, but also gives enough time to take them.
- It may actually prevent restarts, and at the same time save some drivers from a miserable race. A couple laps at low speed gives the chance to repair, and catch up and still enjoy an event.
- It is more relaxed for the race director.

Reasons why I wouldn't:
- It is certainly more complicated than a firm NO restart or a stiff rule (30% cars need to crash for a restart, etc).
- It needs some education. Comm is through the chat, but it should be not a conversation. Each driver gets to write ONCE and in order. No challenges, replies, discussions, 'but why', should be allowed. More intervention only if requested by the race director. If it degenerates into a full blown chat it will just not work.

 

[Reik Major]

Hy Alberto,

thank you very much for your input. It's very much apreciated.

The idea itself sounds good and well thought through. But personally I think it is too complex so I'm afraid it could cause more "new" problems instead of solving the old one. Of course I have no proof of it, it's just a feeling. For example one driver didn't notice a big crash behind and is following a driver close ahead. So he may not be aware of the chat and the called "SC-Periode". If the driver in front slows down, it could take him by surprise and cause another unnecessary crash.

In general a rule has to be as simple as possible (like the "white-line-rule") to keep it easy for existing members and especially potential new members. So I'm also in favour with no restarts except very special things like a destruction derby or mass disconnect happen.

 

[Valerio Vinassa]

Reasons we should:

1, It's only a game and we're all here to have fun
2, It is painful to see many cars in the garage early on
3, Big incidents mostly involve innocent parties that get caught up in it with no chance to avoid
4, Erm.....?
Jim

these are the reasons because I write ok for restart , from behind I see cars all around and I thought is not fun run with few cars on track.
I vote for : lc or sinc issue restart big crash in T1 no restart, we can also remember Melbourne 2 or 3 seasons ago T4 or T5 big crash but not restart maybe not funny but the line of no restart in use until last race I think is best solution, no doubt , no responsibility(Nico), all drivers know this easy rule.

 

[Tim McIver]

I voted yes.

Obviously I'm outvoted and I certainly won't call for one in the future (or type anything). My suggestion would be that if 5 cars are out on lap 1 we restart. I realise that that rule would have in fact not caused a restart in this case, and that it would open to abuse (though I don't think people would actually abuse it).

To come back to the incident itself. I still disagree with Nico and Sean. I should make it clear that I never regained control and I didn't choose to re-enter the track. If you watch the replay the back just keeps sliding round as I give steering input to the left. I'm sure the damage to the car wasn't helping either. I do of course completely agree that if I could have kept the car on the grass until I could safely rejoin then that's what I should have done.

Consider a five car rule... It would hardly ever ever be used.

(Edit: Now I'm catching up in the other thread and seeing some of this is out of date, I'll continue in there)

 

[Reik Major]

If the majority would agree with a minimum number of cars that had to be out of the race in L1 and if we agree a very simple procedure how to let Nico know about the drop offs then I would also vote "yes".
I think this way, because in the first place I like to have a simple rule, so I think it can be simple this way. And I agree with Tim that it would appear very rare. The least I believe it could be abused.