Rally - The Feisty Bee - Monday 3rd & Tuesday 4th September 2012

[Warren Dawes]

Wow, slick work Senad getting the results up before I go to bed.

Congrats Fernando, another close one with Magnar.
Well done Magnar and Tommy for the podium. Great debut Tommy, looks like we have another alien in our midst.

Tommy dominates the Stage wins too, but he left a few for some of us to feel better.

Big welcome to Tommy and Florin into the Rally Club, hope to see you regularly.

Not much red ink this time, is that because the car was easier or stronger, or due to the Reduced Damge instead of Realistic?

Thanks as usual to Senad, Damien, and Fernando for their admin contributions, another good team effort to organise these events.

We take a break next week for the RDRC Round 8, good luck all.

DOH!!! Look who ran P4 to win the rights to set the future Rally? Me.
OK, who wants to volunteer to do it for 24th and 25th September?

 

[Fernando Agapito]

Yep, I noticed that too, but I found that if you flicked the tail into the turns aggressively, you could squeeze the power on during exit.
However, this wasn't working at all on Pikes Peak. Fernando will have to reveal the secret to that one.

Oh come on stop it already Warren we're just almost the same level .

Well on Pikes Peak you just have to avoid flooring the throttle on every hairpins or the wheels will dig deep and you will lose traction, so be light on the pedal and just go easy on your tyres, this requires extreme precision though because you can lose a lot of time with this technique.

I set a record on Pikes Peak last July, you can check it out here:

http://cmsracing.com/champion/forum...68/2nd-annual-cms-pikes-peak-hillclimb-19722/


Congratulations Magnar and Tommy!

Thanks all.

 

[Fernando Agapito]

DOH!!! Look who ran P4 to win the rights to set the future Rally? Me.
OK, who wants to volunteer to do it for 24th and 25th September?

Who's game with Fernando's Rally Challenge 3?

 

[Warren Dawes]

Who's game with Fenando's Rally Challenge 3?

First to volunteer wins it. Thanks Fernando, I look forward to seeing your plans, they are always a great challenge.

 

[Tommy Nilsson]

I really badly want to race in the volvo group h car.
Slow stages with this car is so awsome.
Specially in england.

What a bummer did a really bad mistake on pikes peak running on a weird bump sending the car upside down otherwise maybe a rally win

Suprised i won The snow stage since i made a 10 sec mistake in s1.

Great rally but this car was like a fwd to me horible to drive in the slow corners.
looking forward to the next one.

 

[Manuel De Samaniego]

Congratulations Tommy

 

[David Jundt]

Yes, constant understeer on throttle application.

...which is very "exciting" exiting hairpins and low gear/velocity turns Just goes straight.

 

[Fernando Agapito]

...which is very "exciting" exiting hairpins and low gear/velocity turns Just goes straight.

Oversteer is more exciting I guess . It's just kinda odd for a RWD car to be more understeer.

 

[Tom Peters]

The car is RWD but for me it felt like driving a FWD

Yeah, if I applied to much throttle it just violently wheelspins and understeeers

 

[Warren Dawes]

I really badly want to race in the volvo group h car.

You may just get your wish Tommy.

Jack (and I) have been working on the Event for 17th & 18th September, it will be something a little different, but using the Group H Pack. Stay tuned.

 

[Manuel De Samaniego]

You may just get your wish Tommy.

Jack (and I) have been working on the Event for 17th & 18th September, it will be something a little different, but using the Group H Pack. Stay tuned.

+1 for that, looking forward to try those RWD beasts, they're very fun.

And Fernando, RWD cars tend to understeer massively sometimes.

 

[Fernando Agapito]

And Fernando, RWD cars tend to understeer massively sometimes.

Understeer massively? Nuh-uh .

When a RWD car accelerates the weight shifts rearward making the front lift and reduce grip, this is why you have to control the car in almost every second or you will end up oversteering.

I didn't say there's no Understeer in a RWD, what I'm saying is that this Group B RWD car feels more like a FWD because it's more understeer than the usual oversteery nature of a RWD car.

 

[Manuel De Samaniego]

Big understeer when accelerating out of a corner is one of the most typical things about RWD cars

 

[Fernando Agapito]

Big understeer when accelerating out of a corner is one of the most typical things about RWD cars

"Accelerating out of a corner will cause big understeer for a RWD car" . Well okay whatever, if you say so.

 

[Warren Dawes]

I don't want to get dragged into the debate, but clearly in the case of this car, it is supposed to be RWD. However, as we know, RBR was never designed to match RWD physics, so the makers of modded cars had to compromise a lot.
In the case of the Lancia 037, it has been set up as a 4WD, but they adjusted the diffs etc to try to emulate a RWD feeling.

I have gone back and driven a couple of stages so that I can look at replays to see what it looks like. It is obviously 4WD, you can see all wheels spinning at the start and when traction is lost.
In terms of the understeer vs oversteer feeling, I think it depends on the grip level of the surface and how you control the throttle. This time, I really threw it around at Tanner (since it has lots of slower turns) and Falstone (plenty of medium turns) and didn't really suffer much understeer and in some cases could easliy provoke oversteer.

So, I suspect it comes down to Tom's quote, if you power up too aggressively in early/mid corner (on a low grip stage), you just lose grip to wheelspin (including the front unfortunately due to the 4WD physics) which results in understeer ( bit like a FWD).

Yeah, if I applied to much throttle it just violently wheelspins and understeeers

How we handle the power application will determine the balance through / exiting the turn.
I now understand why I was so poor at Pikes Peak, the surface grip was low, the turns sharp and uphill, and I was overpowering at the wrong time. (Exactly as Fernando has explained earlier).

Of course, the RWD cars in Group H (for instance) have a totally different approach to the way they were set up in RSRBR, and emulate true RWD characterisics much better. But even they have some deficiencies due to the inherent limitations of RBR.

If anyone wants to look at my replays (too lazy to make a video) of Tanner and Falstone, here are the links (just use normal, good, day, to see the wheels better) :
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/52407178/WAD Lancia 037 Tanner .rpl
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/52407178/WAD Lancia 037 Falstone .rpl

If only I drove like that last night.

Whatever, I still thought the Lancia was good fun to drive, certainly different to most of the other Group B's. Variety keeps me interested.

 

[Tommy Nilsson]

This car was fun todrive whenever it was not going to slow.
I realy hope we get the Volvo in the next rally tried 4/4 group h car in my game and the new escort was slow and weird phisycs but the other 3 were also @ the same speed 3.40 .42 .42 around harwood forest(volvo fastest)

Maybe i just want to drive to volvo since i own a 240 coupe

 

[Tom Peters]

Sliding it into the more technical corners eliminated that problem, but guess who didn't do that

 

[Manuel De Samaniego]

"Accelerating out of a corner will cause big understeer for a RWD car" . Well okay whatever, if you say so.

RWD cars are know for oversteering I know, but it is also very very common to have big understeer especially in mid-engine RWD cars when accelerating out of corners, like the Lancia 037 or any Porsche. The thing is, if you press the accelerator too much, you get oversteer and spin, but if you don't press it right, it will understeer. It is true

Also I don't know why but I got many alerts from your quote

 

[Fernando Agapito]

Yeah of course.

I got 4 quote alerts from you too.

 

[Tom Peters]

Ditto