RaceRoom Racing Experience | DTM 2020 Now Available

Goffik

RMG Motorsports
Staff
Premium
12,695
9,477
Are you feeling the same? Are the DTM vehicles without ABS and TC also undrivable for you?
Nope. They are perfectly drivable but just take getting used to. They aren't a class you can just jump into and drive fast. Inability to drive them is down to lack of practice and/or underdeveloped throttle control. I'm not saying I find them easy to drive by any stretch of the imagination, they are certainly challenging when pushing. But with proper technique and plenty of practice you will get the hang of it.

What good is a product (SIM) if their customers are not appreciating what they feel when using the product?
I counter that with another question. What good is a SIM that does not simulate? If people put easy fun over accurate simulation, then there is a genre which covers that call "sim-cade", or even "arcade racer". Full simulations have no business making things "easier" based on the feedback of people who have apparently chosen the wrong genre for their entertainment.

Given that most sims already have an "easy mode" by including various driving assistance options, there is no reason whatsoever for them to fudge a challenging car to make it a more pleasant driving experience for those without the ability to drive it under full simulation conditions. That would literally ruin the sim for those of us who want and expect that realism, and for whom rising to the challenge IS part of the fun.
 

Maddin71287

Scuderia Bandiera Blu
Premium
31
41
Bremen
I personally have no issue with those 2020 DTM cars, but I find them very different from other R3E cars and think they are a little odd in the way they loose control in a very abrupt way. Apparently I am not the only one which brings me to the point of my post.
I we are to believe a post earlier, they have been made to behave that way on purpose because some driver (s) who is competing in 2020 DTM ( knowing who he is/they are would add credibility) recommended that it is more realistic.
It would be all good if R3E intent to sell that DLC to actual 2020 DTM driver who have any interest in SIM driving in general and R3E in particular. But, and this a big but, if the targeted audience are ( presumably) SIM racers ( yes the one who know nothing about nothing) and those sim racers are finding those 2020 DTM difficult to recommend since they feel odd ( to put it nicely), then I think it is a bad decision and would suggest to listen to what the actual customer are saying ( as ignorant as they might be).
What good is a product (SIM) if their customers are not appreciating what they feel when using the product?

I want a SIM as close to Reality as it can get. If the developer made the cars "gentle" just to please some guys, who find it strange, or to hard to drive, thats the moment i leave that product behind me and call it from this day on an arcade game.

If i could Not handle a car, than i train a lot to improve my handling. For me that is fun as well.

I personally hope, that Sector 3 stays on this path.
 

Maddin71287

Scuderia Bandiera Blu
Premium
31
41
Bremen
Nope. They are perfectly drivable but just take getting used to. They aren't a class you can just jump into and drive fast. Inability to drive them is down to lack of practice and/or underdeveloped throttle control. I'm not saying I find them easy to drive by any stretch of the imagination, they are certainly challenging when pushing. But with proper technique and plenty of practice you will get the hang of it.


I counter that with another question. What good is a SIM that does not simulate? If people put easy fun over accurate simulation, then there is a genre which covers that call "sim-cade", or even "arcade racer". Full simulations have no business making things "easier" based on the feedback of people who have apparently chosen the wrong genre for their entertainment.

Given that most sims already have an "easy mode" by including various driving assistance options, there is no reason whatsoever for them to fudge a challenging car to make it a more pleasant driving experience for those without the ability to drive it under full simulation conditions. That would literally ruin the sim for those of us who want and expect that realism, and for whom rising to the challenge IS part of the fun.

AMEN!
 

Kenny Paton

Staff
Premium
12,919
7,098
Scotland
those sim racers are finding those 2020 DTM difficult to recommend since they feel odd ( to put it nicely), then I think it is a bad decision and would suggest to listen to what the actual customer are saying ( as ignorant as they might be).
I sense an issue here, how often do we read posts complaining that something is not "sim" enough with words like simcade or even arcade tossed around.
So when an actual driver of the real cars weighs in with his opinion on how it drives and the devs listen and adjust thing surely that's a good thing. I find the release cars easier than the earlier version I tried, but agree they require careful handling.
 

Kenny Paton

Staff
Premium
12,919
7,098
Scotland
Hello everybody.

Are you feeling the same? Are the DTM vehicles without ABS and TC also undrivable for you?

Do you have a solution for that?
No, I found the earlier version almost undriveable at my skill level, but release one is fine.
The solution, as far as I can make out, is to be extra careful till the tyres warm up and to be very delicate on the throttle, make sure you're straight before braking or accelerating and remember you need to keep the downforce working.
 

Andrew_WOT

Premium
5,288
3,057
Unless that DTM driver is also an experienced sim racer, that feedback might not be as valuable as many might think. Things do not translate 1:1.
I am surprised that driveability of modern DTM cars drives is worse than old no electronics DRM monsters.
 
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Cote Dazur

SIM Addict
2,165
2,530
Ottawa
@Goffik @Kenny Paton @Maddin Onethirtytwo
As I mentionned , I personaly have no issue with how the 2020 DTM drive, I have no issue with simulation being accurate, hard does not mean accurate but that is an other subject.
My point is that R3E is a SIM, we like it to be a SIM, the latest car is different from other DTM in R3E and most other cars in the game. More accurate? Maybe, maybe not.
I find the answer that it is ok according to a "real" 2020 DTM driver not satisfactory to me. I and many R3E fan find that car a little weird and not inline with what we expect and like from R3E.
This is important feedback, as we are R3E customer and if we don't drive it because we don't like it, it is not good for R3E.
Also would like to remind all of us that even the most accurate simulation is miles away from the real thing, so there is plenty of room for interpretation on what anything should feel like, "real" calculations have to align with something pleasant, as we (hopefully) still do sim racing for fun.
So, as I was trying to express, yes, user opinion is very important for the future of any product, even if a driver or a you tuber decides otherwise.
If all the cars in R3E were feeling like the DTM 2020, none of us would mention anything, as it would be as expected.
 
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I don't claim to be the best sim driver or anywhere close for that matter. I am constantly reading that this dlc or that dlc isn't realistic enough. R3E have listened to real race drivers, they guys who actually drive these machines and produced what is arguably a very close simulation of the real thing. Now it seems that it isn't sim enough, they're too hard to drive etc. Come on guys what do you want. I like R3E, imo it has some of the best AI, yeah some of the cars are harder to drive than others but isn't that the point. That's the way it is in real life. I know I sound like I'm banging on a bit but I am probably among the oldest (age wise) members of the RD community but I love the challenge. I tried the BMW round the Nordschlief and to be honest my butt cheeks were going like a rabbits nose for about 10 minutes afterwards, but I'm determined to conquer it. I raced in the real world for the best part of 30 years and drove a huge number of different vehicles. Each was different and some took a lot longer than others to get used to. That's the way it is. We all want more accurate sims at the end of the day so for me kudos to R3E for trying to deliver
 

Leynad777

Premium
696
484
Germany
I don't claim to be the best sim driver or anywhere close for that matter. I am constantly reading that this dlc or that dlc isn't realistic enough. R3E have listened to real race drivers, they guys who actually drive these machines and produced what is arguably a very close simulation of the real thing. Now it seems that it isn't sim enough, they're too hard to drive etc.
If I was a real driver, I would want the sim to be as punishing as possible so no matter how little the mistake is, it punish me multiple times more than in the real car. There is no such thing as perfect realism in any sim, so if it's similar difficult than the real cars, it will allow some moves that might fail in a real car and is more tricky in other circumstances. That's just the nature of imperfection and probably the better approach for a title.
 
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Cote Dazur

SIM Addict
2,165
2,530
Ottawa
If I was a real driver, I would want the sim to be as punishing as possible so no matter how little the mistake is, it punish me multiple times more than in the real car. There is no such thing as perfect realism in any sim, so if it's similar difficult than the real cars, it will allow some moves that might fail in a real car and is more tricky in other circumstances. That's just the nature of imperfection and probably the better approach for a title.
You are quoting me but it is not my post.
 
16
14
This looks like a philosophical discussion with a lot of assumptions. Just remember that not all cars in a SIM need to please you.
Does it feel differently from others? Great, good way to get out of comfort zone.
Still not your thing? Stick with previous Gen or just go for another category.
 
Hey guys, just browsing through here to see what the first impressions are.
Some good, some bad, but I think mostly they seem well received.

Those of you having a tricky time with the cars, just take your time a bit and I mean that in more than just one way. Take your time learning the car as they are quite a contrast to say a GT3, and take your time every single time you hit the drive button with those stone cold slicks.

I saw the topic of development path came up; how it happened, who was involved, why it went in the direction it's gone etc. Let me tell you, the series organisers have been absolutely brilliant with respect to these cars. I have had literally everything I wanted at my disposal. Engine maps, damper charts, throttle maps, aero maps, race engineers, sessions with drivers, and so on. Those guys really steered it the way they wanted the cars to be. We even have an independent body which is responsible for "performance equalisation" (bop) involved to give us their input.

All in all, these cars really are the baby of a collaboration between Sector 3 Studios and other parties who are all involved in the real world series. Long may this sort of thing continue!
 

Cote Dazur

SIM Addict
2,165
2,530
Ottawa
Let me tell you, the series organisers have been absolutely brilliant with respect to these cars. I have had literally everything I wanted at my disposal. Engine maps, damper charts, throttle maps, aero maps, race engineers, sessions with drivers, and so on. Those guys really steered it the way they wanted the cars to be. We even have an independent body which is responsible for "performance equalisation" (bop) involved to give us their input.

All in all, these cars really are the baby of a collaboration between Sector 3 Studios and other parties who are all involved in the real world series. Long may this sort of thing continue!

Thank you for shimming in and for the precisions, all of it sound very impressive and add a lot of credibility to what as been achieved.
Thank you also for all the efforts in bringing us closer to what the real series is about and for standing behind your work.
I will drive them further with a new perspective and the respect they deserve.
Et vive la difference! :)
 

Nick Hill

Premium
1,287
1,756
Denver, USA
This thread prompted me to give R3E another look. It pains me to say this because it's one of my all time favorite sims and I consider myself a long time, vocal supporter, but it's sort of slowly but surely gotten squeezed out of my personal sim rotation. I tend to spend more time in iRacing and AMS2 nowadays but R3E is still a very serviceable, playable sim. I don't think it looks or feels quite as refined as some of the newer titles but, at the end of the day, it feels an awful lot like a really polished GT Legends or GTR2 with great content that you can play in VR. That's really not a bad place to be, honestly. Hell, for a lot of people, I just described their dream sim. Just in the time of my (relatively) short hiatus, I can definitely feel some FFB/physics differences (for the better). I am giving some consideration to putting R3E back in my rotation.
 
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