Race #07, Hungary: Post-Race Checks

[Markus Hoffmann]

We should just stop this for now and calm down.
You guys have decided it for now and we see whats next comming.
Its usual that people have different meanings.

 

[Johannes Kunkel]

I think both penalties are not given for the same situation and both fit "the crime"

The penalty against Morgan was given because he took the position back with an illegal move, and as he didn´t give the position back himself this was done after the race. After t1 Bono did a dummy move, which was to close and to risky, but had no influence on the outcome of the race so he gets a penalty that stays for at least the next 5 races.

 

[Ville Leppala]

 

[Jaakko_M]

Have you guys actually read the rules? I find some comments here really awkward.
Only reason why FSR races are reasonably clean (YES you read it right!) is that race directors do actually follow rules.

Considering Morand's move was race deciding, I can't see how this could be decided differently.

6. Blocking and Weaving
6.1 Strictly no weaving allowed.
6.2 You are allowed to block cars that are on the same lap as you, with the following restrictions:
a) You may only change line ONCE on each straight. This means, that if you have the outside
line approaching the turn, you are allowed to switch to the inside line, but then you are not
allowed to switch back to the outside line to give yourself a better line through the bend (and
vice versa).
b) If you block the inside line on the straight and in the braking-zone, you must be prepared to
take the bend from there (and thus brake earlier than normal). This rule is the same in real
life.
c) You are not allowed to change your line at all when you are alongside another car. Alongside
means any part of the other car is alongside ANY part of your car. Even if the other driver
has only got his front-wing in front of your rear wing, you are not allowed to block.
d) Block in time, or don't block at all. Any excessive/illegal blocking and waving will be
penalized.

7. Right of Way in Bends
7.1 The car on the inside line has right of way in a bend as long as they are under control, all situations
will be judged on their own merits. When going two-wide through a bend, both drivers must give the
other driver room for (a) their car (b) warping (connection lag) and (c) margin of error. In reality, this
means that each driver must give the other driver a fair and sporting amount of space. So squeezing
the other driver wide is not allowed. When overtaking a competitor, the attacking party should only
attempt to overtake in a corner if at least the front of his car is alongside the defending party when
they arrive at the turn-in point of the corner. If the attacking party tries to make a move from further
back and makes contact with the defending party, the attacker will be held accountable. Conversely,
if the defending party does not give enough room for the attacking party when they arrive at the apex
of a corner side-by-side, ending in contact, the defending party will be held accountable.

 

[David Dominguez]

When going two-wide through a bend, both drivers must give the
other driver room for (a) their car (b) warping (connection lag) and (c) margin of error.

Look from Morgan's onboard from Mikko's video (sec 15), and tell me if Bono gives enough room for b and c. If nothing happened was thanks to rF netcode...

 

[Jaakko_M]

Look from Morgan's onboard from Mikko's video (sec 15), and tell me if Bono gives enough room for b and c. If nothing happened was thanks to rF netcode...

Bono wasn't the one who forced another driver off the track.

 

[David Dominguez]

Bono forces Morgan to stuck into the inside (almost half of the car over the kerb) by being in front + turning in + outbraking himself a little bit (he is locking). If he braked in straight line, avoiding the slight contact (visual or physical, it doesn't matter), Morgan would have had a little more space and maybe the scenario would have been totally different (by braking later, or by having a better racing line).

 

[Jaakko_M]

Curbs are considered as part of the track, which means Bono left enough space for another car.
Edit:
Actually, as I look the video again. You are exaggerating Bono's entry quote badly. Morand had wheels over the curb but not even near as badly as you suggest

 

[David Dominguez]

What I mean is this:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7543651/a1.png

In that moment Morgan is in straight line, while Bono brakes slightly later and already moves a bit the car into the inside. That makes the first contact (visual-physical, as I said I don't know but it doesn't matter, you posted the rules where it says that you have to give enough room also for lag reasons), and that gives Bono a very important advantage, because Morgan, with a car literally in front of him, doesn't have any other chance than going into the inside. He can't even try to brake more late because he would have crashed with Bono's car. Bono forces this, as well as Morgan forces Bono to stay behind in the exit by going wide, but what I mean is that we don't know what would have happened if Bono gives that extra space in the entry, and you can't ignore what happened earlier while judging the incident.

c) You are not allowed to change your line at all when you are alongside another car. Alongside
means any part of the other car is alongside ANY part of your car. Even if the other driver
has only got his front-wing in front of your rear wing, you are not allowed to block.

 

[Johannes Kunkel]

In that case both drivers broke the rule as Morgan after going for the very inside of the track on the straight moved back to the outside along Bono and if you look at the replay closely Morgan was still moving left slightly in the beginning of the brakingzone. If only 1 linechange is allowed then stricktly what Morgan did wasn´t allowed either.

Bono got a Warning for the same move as Morgan did before turn 1 in Malaysia (following the other car to the outside after initially defeding the inside), resulting in the same sort of contact as in this case.

 

[Jaakko_M]

From experience I know that in FSR "giving room" means you have to give enough room for another car to stay on track. You don't have to give room like it was Pope himself coming through. Contacts may be viewed differently, but I don't consider this as anything to pay attention for.

 

[David Dominguez]

In that case both drivers broke the rule as Morgan after going for the very inside of the track on the straight moved back to the outside along Bono and if you look at the replay closely Morgan was still moving left slightly in the beginning of the brakingzone. If only 1 linechange is allowed then stricktly what Morgan did wasn´t allowed either.

Bono got a Warning for the same move as Morgan did before turn 1 in Malaysia (following the other car to the outside after initially defeding the inside), resulting in the same sort of contact as in this case.

Probably you are right, but that move wasn't protested.

 

[David Dominguez]

From experience I know that in FSR "giving room" means you have to give enough room for another car to stay on track. You don't have to give room like it was Pope himself coming through. Contacts may be viewed differently, but I don't consider this as anything to pay attention for.

Well, in my opinion if you take advantage (even if it's very small) by making a contact, that shouldn't be allowed.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7543651/a3.png

And that's what Morgan see from his cockpit view. Can he try to beat Bono by releasing a bit the brake pedal? No he can't, because he has a car hitting him visually on his screen, therefore he is in disadvantage. In that moment he totally depends on where Bono's car is.

 

[John-Eric Saxén]

I feel the main reason we are here is that there are certain flaws with the damage model, both in terms of position tracking and sensitivity. In the past few years we wanted to go with a somewhat lenient model, knowing that there is lag involved, and that we could apply penalties afterwards. But as we see, giving post-race penalties will always create a huge fuss, regardless of if they were justified or not. Having a damage model like iRacing, poor as it is in many ways, wouldn't allow nearly this kind of racing. Granted, we wouldn't reach the same kind of excitement, but twists like this would be reduced to a minimum, as the offending driver would suffer from contact and damage straight away.

I'm not defending anyone in particular, but with the current damage model, the director has to draw the line of what is acceptable racing somewhere. In this sense I fully appreciate Mikko's decision, as I know it would be much easier for him to just ignore the whole situation and pretend nothing happened. Now we have rules that say you can't force another driver wide and switch lines x amount of times, so penalties there shall be. What exact penalties is of course another question...

 

[William Levesque]

If only it was Touring Car racing, hard racing and no whining

Kudos though, it does feel like real Formula 1 a lot

 

[Damian Henderson]

The penalties were deserved and fair for both drivers, at least on the Morand move it would of been a harsher penalty in other leagues, as this was fighting for the lead, you simply can't run guys of track to get a win.

Accept penalties professionally, move on and look to the future.

 

[Eros Masciulli]

Hi guys, I know that I am not involved here and I am still such a noob here, but I would to say my opinion.
It is probably Morgan's fault, but I don't understand the penalty of 5 seconds that makes Bono win.
I had same accident with Mallorqui on China, he was inside the turn 1 with me cleary in front, he tryed the inside line and pushed me wide, almost in spin. That was also more dangerous than this move of Morgan and he get only 1 penalty point.
Same accidents should be same penaltyes, in my opinion.

 

[Petros Mak]

I agree with Eros on this one. FSR needs to get to grips with giving the same penalties for the same crime. FSR twists and turns things so much its annoying. I also feel the 5s penalty is wrong giving bono the win. Both drivers were racing for the win, both drivers were performing risky moves, I saw quite a few from Bono which were not protested and vice versa. In my view both drivers were at fault here. Bono missed his braking point compared to previous laps and turned in. Drivers are also supposed to give enough room and forcing a driver to have half their car off the track is not considered giving enough room. FSR needs to re-assess this penalty as its not consistent with past penalties given for the same issue.

Don't get me wrong. I have huge respect for both Bono and Morgan but as they were both so close and wanting to win the race, they both did several (questionable) moves and penalizing one and giving the other the win is not the right decision in my oppinion.

 

[David Dominguez]

Sometimes I have the feeling that some people thinks "FSR" is a person who does everything in this league. But the truth is that it is managed by different people, and each division has a different race director. We are under the same rules, but we can have different opinions regarding an incident, specially when we have to apply a penalty. You can't expect the exact same criteria for all of us.

 

[EnyNX]

I was going to reply but actually David said really what I had in mind. Race director has to take a decision and that is obviously based on his respectable personal view.
As personal opinion I also don't agree with this penalties and Pedro did simply follow rules and sent the case to COA. Three people will review it and, eventually, give back the win to Morand. Sometimes it's too easy to attack, FSR has its rules and its "weakness" as we all are humans, but it has a strong structure and fair rules. Court of Appeal was created exactly for this reason, to give more "debated" cases to three people instead of only one.
If you compare all our opinions on here, you'll see that race director didn't take a WRONG ONE but just his one.... just like everyone on here has a different view on the case.
If it was me, I'd only have given a license penalty to Morand (no time penalty) and nothing to Bono as, from reviewing his move, it looked to me like he wanted to go inside and then found no space (then I read about his own statement that he indeed made a "faint" to go on the inside).
But, as you can see, that is just my opinion, we all have one and race director has his own, like us all.